Had the parts for nearly two years. not been able to fit them for various reasons. I was going to do it this weekend, but, I'm struggling with the instructions.
Specifically how to cut the spacer to the correct length by measuring various depths.
This is EXACTLY how it is written.
3) Set the fork cap/spring preload adjuster to a middle setting.
4) Measure the thickness of the cap from the seat point for the top of the fork tube to be bottom of the factory disc/ washer.
Is this the dimension from the shoulder of the fork cap ( where is sits on the fork tube) to thebottom end of the fork cap. Which I assume is variable by adjustment of the spring reload, and subject to manufacturing limits. I understand that this needs to be set to mid limit.
Here is a photo of the measurement of the cap & washer you are looking for.
Sent you an email as well.
Randy - RPM
Not quite as good as your drawing. LOL
Thank you
I am a starving young artist... I guess i'll be waiting on my 2,000,000 (cash only please) I can even print it on canvas if you would like.
Robert - RPM
Wouldn't this measurement be the same for several models?
and couldn't there be a measurement in the instructions for certain models?
Cheers Alan
Yes, between model years ('84-90 are all the same and 91+ have a different measurement than the '84-'90) In the directions there is a listed average. However, due to manufacturing tolerances of the caps, washers, dampening adjusters, etc. there are slight differences in the actual measurement.
Robert - RPM
Young :wacko2: :wacko1: :sarcastic: :blum2:
Drained the oil from the forks, although it was last changed about four years ago, so was relatively new. I still poured some more fork oil through to flush them a bit. :good2:
Now put 1/2 a litre of Motul light 5 oil in each leg, amused by the statement to "cycle up and down to remove any trapped air" As the sump has a trolley jack under the sump, this is a slow process, keep imagining the the bike is going to roll off of the main stand.
I removed my RPM fork brace, as it looked as it might hit when the forks were fully compressed.
Surprised to see how high the oil level is in the forks, when they're fully compressed, made me read the instructions yet again! The level before putting the fork valve in is 1 3/4". So there will be a lot of oil to suck out, yet, the instructions mention either adding or removing oil!
The old self doubt is creeping in!
Jacked the bike up and down about 6 times, still a few bubbles coming out.
e mailed Randy, very quick reply ( thanks mate). It was just me being phobic, job completed. Not ridden it yet, other jobs to do
The Jury returns!
The bike no longer crashes over bumps!
But, there is a down side.
Ridden down my favourite road.
All is not well!!!!!!!!!!
I can now take bends quicker, as the bike just feels more secure. :blum2:
One place in particular has my car "tramping" on a downhill negative camber bend, my BMW 1150GS can cope with this, the FJ didn't bounce like it normally does.
So, all in all, I am a happy bunny, put the RPM bar risers on as well, another improvement. :yahoo:
So ELIMINATOR you didn't even take the forks off the bike?
How much pressure was there when you took off the cap? and what was it like putting it back on?
Were they as easy to install as the instructions say?
Cheers Alan
There really isn't all that much force pushing back on the caps, if your front wheel is off the ground, when taking the caps off, or installing them.
Alan, (for me) it's hard to get a accurate measurement on the level of the fork oil when the forks are installed (at an angle)
You can r/r the springs with the forks installed as long as that front tire is off the ground and the forks fully extended. There are some funny stories about folks taking the fork caps off while the bike's weight was still on the front end. Kinda like starting the engine with the clutch slave off.....
I've got a head stand so front will be off the ground with forks fully extended.
I will be taking off front wheel for replacing tyre so not much more trouble taking forks out to measure levels with forks in upright position Pat.
Front wheel on the ground taking cap off, ouch.
Looks straight forward,
anybody got any other tips?
Just have to sort the rear out then!
Cheers Alan
Take a half full bottle of water and hold it with your thumb and index finger in the middle of the bottle at the water line.
Now, tilt the bottle. What do you see? Until you get to extreme angles, the level of the water from the top of the bottle will pivot at the center of the bottle and remains the same for a wide range of angles.
The forks are only slightly tilted and narrow so measuring the level will be perfectly fine with them installed. This is definitely not rocket science.
Quote from: FJ_Hooligan on May 17, 2017, 10:05:38 AM
Take a half full bottle of water and hold it with your thumb and index finger in the middle of the bottle at the water line.
Now, tilt the bottle. What do you see? Until you get to extreme angles, the level of the water from the top of the bottle will pivot at the center of the bottle and remains the same for a wide range of angles.
The forks are only slightly tilted and narrow so measuring the level will be perfectly fine with them installed. This is definitely not rocket science.
(popcorn) Show is about to start. :yes:
(popcorn)
If you take the forks off, you now also have the ability to repack the front wheel bearings....
....see Pat run for cover......... (popcorn)
Quote from: FJ_Hooligan on May 17, 2017, 10:05:38 AM
Take a half full bottle of water and hold it with your thumb and index finger in the middle of the bottle at the water line.
Now, tilt the bottle. What do you see? Until you get to extreme angles, the level of the water from the top of the bottle will pivot at the center of the bottle and remains the same for a wide range of angles.
The forks are only slightly tilted and narrow so measuring the level will be perfectly fine with them installed. This is definitely not rocket science.
Just trying something here...
Using an estimated fork tube ID of 39mm, and the rake angle of 27 degrees, it appears the level of fork oil from one side of the fork tube to the other differs close to 18mm.
(http://fjowners.com/gallery/10/1388_17_05_17_3_15_01.jpeg)
Yes, but the level is ~9mm too high on the back side and ~9mm too low on the forward side. Drop the tape measure in the middle of the tube and you'll get it close enough. You can do this same thing with carb fuel level as long as you make the measurement in the middle of the float bowl.
Or, go ahead and spend 3 more hours to pull everything apart. I'm just trying to help.
That's also why whenever I read the advice that the proper fork oil level is measured without the spring and the tube fully collapsed I always recommend to make a second measurement with the spring in place and the fork fully extended. That way when you only want to change fork oil, you can do it without disassembling the entire front end just to collapse the fork. Saves LOTS of time when you just want to get fresh oil in the fork.
But it's just advice. Feel free to ignore it.
Also, your math doesn't look correct.
I get tan(27*)x39mm = 19.87mm
:-)
Geeze Louise, along with measuring the oil level at an angle, you expect me to accurately measure the oil level with the spring in the tube?
"A man's got to know his limitations" and I am not that competent........ besides, I can r/r both forks, change the fluid in under an hour.
I've got one of these Motion Pro goodies and it works a treat (with the springs out)
(http://rpmracingca.com/prodimages/large/tools%20ForkLevel-1.jpg)
http://rpmracingca.com/proddetail.asp?prod=tools%3AForkLevel (http://rpmracingca.com/proddetail.asp?prod=tools%3AForkLevel)
Don't you have to divide by two since the center line of the fork should still be the proper level...?
When we change fork oil on the bike, it us the fork level tool at the middle/center line of the side of the fork tube.
We will have to check the difference in oil level for perpendicular to rake angle on the next set we rebuild.
We only use this fork level tool: http://rpmracingca.com/proddetail.asp?prod=tools%3AForkLevel (http://rpmracingca.com/proddetail.asp?prod=tools%3AForkLevel)
Randy - RPM
Quote from: FJ_Hooligan on May 17, 2017, 07:15:01 PM
Also, your math doesn't look correct.
I get tan(27*)x39mm = 19.87mm
:-)
Neither does yours. Your formula is incorrect. It yields -127.6
Next time you attempt Trigonometry like you did above, convert degrees to radians, and you'll get the correct answer.
39 X TAN ((27/(180/π)) = 19.87
The 17.61mm dimension shown in the graphics above, is not based on the Tangent function. It is a correct value.
You assumed that longer leg of the triangle is perpendicular to the line representing fork tube. It is not. Look closer.
Wow, really? This is almost embarrassing.
I don't know what calculator you're using, but with my calculator we apparently get the same answer. Or did you miss that above?
If you want to get pissy about it maybe you need a new calculator or lessons in using one.
In degree mode, tan(27*) gives the same answer as tan(27*pi/180) in radian mode. But since I have to explain this then I'm probably wasting both of our time.
My formula is correct. The legs of the right triangle are the 39mm ID and the far side of the fork tube and tangent is opposite over adjacent.
Where did you learn your trig?
Randy,
What you're doing is correct, the level at the centerline of the fork does not change. That was my original message.
You can change my fork oil anytime!
Quote from: Pat Conlon on May 17, 2017, 07:46:04 PM
Geeze Louise, along with measuring the oil level at an angle, you expect me to accurately measure the oil level with the spring in the tube?
"A man's got to know his limitations" and I am not that competent........ besides, I can r/r both forks, change the fluid in under an hour.
Pat,
Correct me if I'm wrong. But don't you HAVE to remove USD forks to drain the oil? There is no drain screw on the bottom of the fork?
I'm just trying to save everyone an extra shot at cracking/breaking the fender tabs.
DavidR.
On second thought, NEVERMIND! Maybe I shouldn't try to help.
Everyone please ignore the advice I gave above.
EVERY time you want to change your fork oil, pull the entire front end of your FJ apart so you can accurately measure the oil level in an upright position. Good luck not cracking any fender tabs.
In the meantime, I'll have the job done as practically an afterthought.
I really didn't think it was a (popcorn) thread, but I guess I was wrong on that too.
I'm gettin a wee bit antsy.....is it rally time yet? :flag_of_truce:
Quote from: Pat Conlon on May 17, 2017, 11:30:30 PM
I'm gettin a wee bit antsy.....is it rally time yet? :flag_of_truce:
Hmmm, Mr. C. - perhaps we can get started early?
I'll bring the booze & you bring the babes...?
Just a thought...
Quote from: FJ_Hooligan on May 17, 2017, 10:31:52 PM
Correct me if I'm wrong. But don't you HAVE to remove USD forks to drain the oil? There is no drain screw on the bottom of the fork?
Oh....yea....its been so long, I forgot all about them.... :Facepalm:
Carry on....
Move along people.....nothing to see here.....
Quote from: Mike Ramos on May 17, 2017, 11:36:10 PM
Quote from: Pat Conlon on May 17, 2017, 11:30:30 PM
I'm gettin a wee bit antsy.....is it rally time yet? :flag_of_truce:
Hmmm, Mr. C. - perhaps we can get started early?
I'll bring the booze & you bring the babes...?
Just a thought...
Note to self: DO NOT leave the forum screen up for viewing.....
And once again what I'd hoped would be useful knowledge for the FJ population gets swamped with a bunch of bullshit noise.
Makes me wonder why I even try.
Perhaps I'll just stop trying.
You guys are complicating it too much. I use a measuring cylinder, heat up the oil and put the specified amount in each tube. Some oil always stays in the cylinder, but the amount that stayed in is the same for both measurements. A mL or two of difference makes no change. If you wish to complicate your life over such things, go for it. I have more important things in my life to think about than a couple of mL of oil difference in the tubes. :bomb: :bomb:
Really, that's what you take from this?
I'm trying to simplify it for everyone,
But it appears to be too complex for anyone one to understand.
That's just sad
Quote from: FJ_Hooligan on May 17, 2017, 06:39:26 PM
Drop the tape measure in the middle of the tube and you'll get it close enough.
Its always the logical advice that seems to win out,
and it'll be easier
Cheers Alan
Don't get your tape measure into an oily mess, just use a Dip Stick. Make your own, it is only a reference to keep both sides filled the same.
Quote from: FJ_Hooligan on May 17, 2017, 10:13:22 PM
This is almost embarrassing.
My formula is correct.
Yes, perhaps for you.
Go ahead and input the formula you presented into Excel, and see what you get.
(http://fjowners.com/gallery/10/1388_18_05_17_5_54_11_0.jpeg)
(http://fjowners.com/gallery/10/1388_18_05_17_5_54_11_1.jpeg)
Quote from: FJ_Hooligan on May 17, 2017, 10:13:22 PM
I don't know what calculator you're using, but with my calculator we apparently get the same answer.
If you want to get pissy about it maybe you need a new calculator or lessons in using one.
Clear example of the pot calling the kettle black.
Quote from: FJ_Hooligan on May 17, 2017, 10:13:22 PM
Where did you learn your trig?
Same level you did, a stopping point, before I moved onto to a higher education, that entailed proving myself in higher mathematics (Calculus and beyond), where one has to show their work to prove their answers. Not just punch numbers into a calculator. It never has occurred to you what the calculator's software does, when "degree mode" button is used, does it?
Quote from: FJ_Hooligan on May 17, 2017, 10:22:27 PM
Randy,
the level at the centerline of the fork does not change. That was my original message.
Wrong again. Yes it does.
Visualize what happens to the to the midpoint of the oil's level, when the fork tube is rotated from vertical to 27 degrees. See graphics posted earlier.
Randy: Similar triangles can be employed to derive the new location of the oil level's midpoint, with the fork at 27 degrees from vertical. See example...
(http://fjowners.com/gallery/10/1388_18_05_17_5_54_11_2.jpeg)
Quote from: FJ_Hooligan on May 17, 2017, 11:48:44 PM
And once again what I'd hoped would be useful knowledge for the FJ population gets swamped with a bunch of bullshit noise.
Makes me wonder why I even try.
Perhaps I'll just stop trying.
Please, don't do that SlowOldGuy. Look what happened in the past, when you left in a huff, when others questioned your input. Your knowledge and experience are needed here. You just need to keep your temper, and arrogance in-check.
Hell, I even defended you at one time for your previous contributions after you left. Another member, described what had happened and why you left, after my defense of you. Looks like were coming full circle again.
Nope, you are not allowed to quit! We need everyone up here....think about it like you are in an Italian family.....we can't always agree and we are act rude in a way to family members that we would never think of with friends or acquaintances, b acquaintances....but now it's time for pasta. :hi:
Agreed...I just use the measure as spec'd in the manual...no warm up though.
Quote from: jscgdunn on May 18, 2017, 07:54:50 AM
Agreed...I just use the measure as spec'd in the manual...no warm up though.
And the life is alot easier, isn't it? :yahoo:
Well Marty,
I have no idea what your last post means. Yes similar triangles are similar triangles, what does that prove here?
Why don't you pick up a water bottle and tilt it left and right and see for yourself that the level at the centerline stays in the same place?
The only thing I get from your post is that you don't know how to use Excel to calculate an angle in degrees and I know how to use a common calculator.
Can you explain where your "answer" of 17.64mm comes from?
Take your diagram and draw a line down the center of the tube down to where it meets the oil level. I wish I had your skills for drawing.
Call the distance from the top of the fork tube to the center of the oil level X and call the fork tube angle A. I'm keeping the fork ID at 39mm.
The oil level on the left side of the tube is X - (tan(A)*39/2)
The oil level on the right side of the tube is X + (tan(A)*39/2)
As the angle of the fork tube goes to 0 (zero, verticle), tan(A) goes to zero and the oil level at the left and right side of the tube are both at X. So, explain to me how the level at the center of the tube is ANYTHING but X the whole time?
I'm showing my math, where is yours?
AutoCAD says that the distance along the tube is 19.8715 mm.
Bill
Quote from: CutterBill on May 18, 2017, 12:07:25 PM
AutoCAD says that the distance along the tube is 19.8715 mm.
Bill
Quote from: FJ1100mjk on May 17, 2017, 09:24:59 PM
The 17.61mm dimension shown in the graphics above, is not based on the Tangent function. It is a correct value.
You assumed that longer leg of the triangle is perpendicular to the line representing fork tube. It is not. Look closer.
Quote from: FJ_Hooligan on May 17, 2017, 10:41:05 PM
I really didn't think it was a (popcorn) thread, but I guess I was wrong on that too.
Well, you're doing your best to perpetuate this one.
Like I told CutterBill in one of his posts, 'I don't care anymore. I'm done.' Same goes for this one.
Keep digging yourself a deeper hole if you want. I'm outta here.
I've shown you the math yet all you've done is claim that 17.61mm is the correct answer without ANY proof. Who's the one in a hole?
By the way, the correct answer to the difference in the level from one side of the tube to the other is 19.87mm (thanks for confirming that Bill) and it is a tangent function. But that was never the issue. My initial claim was that the oil level at the center of the tube stays constant and the math proves that is correct. This is elementary fluid mechanics.
Since you can't argue with facts, I understand why you choose to stop your end of the conversation.
Quote from: balky1 on May 18, 2017, 12:45:06 AM
You guys are complicating it too much. I use a measuring cylinder, heat up the oil and put the specified amount in each tube. Some oil always stays in the cylinder, but the amount that stayed in is the same for both measurements. A mL or two of difference makes no change. If you wish to complicate your life over such things, go for it. I have more important things in my life to think about than a couple of mL of oil difference in the tubes.
Hey Balky,
I hope you're measuring the oil level when you finish adding the oil.
My first couple of fork oil changes I simply pulled the drain plug and let the oil drain. Then I filled each tube with the "specified amount" of oil according to the manual. I never measured the oil level or compared the difference between the tubes.
When I got around to changing fork seals and disassembled the forks, the difference in the amount of oil in the tubes was significant. One tube was overfilled and obviously doing more work than the other. The oil in the overfilled fork was really nasty. The oil in the other tube looked like it just came out of the bottle.
So, just a suggestion; measure the oil level before you put the cap on.
Quote from: FJ_Hooligan on May 18, 2017, 01:17:10 PM
all you've done is claim that 17.61mm is the correct answer without ANY proof. Who's the one in a hole?
Since you can't argue with facts, I understand why you choose to stop your end of the conversation.
OldSlowGuy:
I could agree with you, but then I'd be wrong.
You have well-honed ability to ignore the obvious.
You are clearly on a whole different level than I.
:Facepalm:
Ok, Ill concede.
I must be wrong and you're right.
But wait, I'm sorry what was your point other than telling me that I'm wrong without offering up any proof?
Just what exactly is it that is so obvious? I'm not ignoring it, I just don't understand your (lack of) logic.
Oh, and let me apologize for saying that your math is incorrect. That is obviously an incorrect accusation since you never provided any math.
This is the whole wrestling with a pig thing, isn't it. I'm just getting muddy....
Quote from: FJ_Hooligan on May 18, 2017, 01:35:53 PM
Quote from: balky1 on May 18, 2017, 12:45:06 AM
You guys are complicating it too much. I use a measuring cylinder, heat up the oil and put the specified amount in each tube. Some oil always stays in the cylinder, but the amount that stayed in is the same for both measurements. A mL or two of difference makes no change. If you wish to complicate your life over such things, go for it. I have more important things in my life to think about than a couple of mL of oil difference in the tubes.
Hey Balky,
I hope you're measuring the oil level when you finish adding the oil.
My first couple of fork oil changes I simply pulled the drain plug and let the oil drain. Then I filled each tube with the "specified amount" of oil according to the manual. I never measured the oil level or compared the difference between the tubes.
When I got around to changing fork seals and disassembled the forks, the difference in the amount of oil in the tubes was significant. One tube was overfilled and obviously doing more work than the other. The oil in the overfilled fork was really nasty. The oil in the other tube looked like it just came out of the bottle.
So, just a suggestion; measure the oil level before you put the cap on.
I simply don't dwell on it too much. Since the measuring cylinder is laboratory grade I know the amount is the same. Checking the level afterward would be probably good idea, just to see if there is any difference, without taking the actual distance to the oil in account.
But, if the test ride afterwards shows good handling, I leave it be. Different oil levels yield wobbly effect in corners so you can tell if it is something wrong. I know this is not your perfect way of doing things, but in some cases I am not a perfectionist. :gamer:
:Facepalm:
Jesus!!!!!!
Why did I start this thread............................... incidentally......................I measured the oil level in the middle of the fork. Only thing to hand was my vernier. :good2:
I'm off now :yahoo:
Quote from: ELIMINATOR on May 19, 2017, 02:13:47 PM
:Facepalm:
Jesus!!!!!!
Why did I start this thread............................... incidentally......................I measured the oil level in the middle of the fork. Only thing to hand was my vernier. :good2:
I'm off now :yahoo:
:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
:bomb: :bomb:
:flag_of_truce:
Quote from: ELIMINATOR on May 19, 2017, 02:13:47 PM
Jesus!!!!!!
Why did I start this thread............................... incidentally......................I measured the oil level in the middle of the fork. Only thing to hand was my vernier. :good2:
I'm off now :yahoo:
Trev,
No worries. I read this report about another countryman of yours this morning:
Randy's Fork Valves and Springs... (http://www.fjfjrbiker.co.uk/index.php?topic=23726.msg291423#msg291423)
In light of where this topic went, the oil level/air gap let at the top of the fork tube is one of the only adjustments one can play with for personal preference. As long as both fork oil levels are the same, you are good to go.
I especially like this perspective from that post;
It's going to be a combination of the valves and springs coupled with the fork brace, just how much each puts in to it I neither know nor care. I don't even now what I expected, but on tonight's short couple of runs, it's better than anything I could have expected. I'd say that they have done for the suspension what the Exup/Genesis wheels did for the 'handling', and what the Blue/Gold Spots and FZR master cylinder did for the brakes.BTW, I will check the difference in the oil level change from straight up to the rake angle on the nest set I build or service.
Randy - RPM
Randy, I was going to copy my write-up over here, but you've saved me the trouble! :biggrin: :biggrin:
However, I will add the final bit (about the suspension) that you left out...
QuotePerhaps the best way to say what I think of it is that, on the strength of the performance tonight, I've just ordered a rear shock off Randy.