Recently I was peeking under a cover at an unnamed motorcycle shop and noticed a FJ cylinder head with the cams missing and all the cam journals milled out and recessed into the head, some sort of strange valve actuators with small hydraulic lines running to them.
Hmmmm, no cams?
Then last week, I saw this in my news feed: http://www.popsci.com/9-greatest-innovations-in-automotives-this-year (http://www.popsci.com/9-greatest-innovations-in-automotives-this-year)
Further investigations: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f4p-55a3WV8 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f4p-55a3WV8)
EFI for the FJ and now this as a possibility, mind blowing Pat....
Hmmmm......I bet the megasquirt controllers already have enough computing power and look up tables available to handle this with just a bit of code change......
As Artie Shaw used to say "Verrrry Interesting". As the racebikes already use a tank and air springs on their valves we might see this tech used on them very soon.
Dave
Quote from: fj1289 on October 21, 2016, 01:24:47 PM
Hmmmm......I bet the megasquirt controllers already have enough computing power and look up tables available to handle this with just a bit of code change......
Computing power they have.
What they don't have is the electronics to run the electrics. So, you need another board and some more wires.
Its very interesting tech, one would think that these actuaters would have to be mega robust in order to replace the camshaft, so long precise gear driven cams maybe, talk about best profile money can buy. They got the name wrong I think, it should be the free cam and nick name them the freak! Imagine how many profiles you could have with a push of a button or a lockout for those with teenagers, only 50hp power for you tonight Billy, fuck dad.
Quote from: gumby302ho on October 21, 2016, 06:12:49 PM
Its very interesting tech, one would think that these actuaters would have to be mega robust in order to replace the camshaft, so long precise gear driven cams maybe, talk about best profile money can buy.
They are pneumatic pistons. No cams at all. It's basically a heavy duty version of the fuel injector, only with air cylinders instead of solenoids.
Quote from: gumby302ho on October 21, 2016, 06:12:49 PM
They got the name wrong I think, it should be the free cam and nick name them the freak!
More like "Cam-free"
Quote from: gumby302ho on October 21, 2016, 06:12:49 PM
Imagine how many profiles you could have with a push of a button or a lockout for those with teenagers, only 50hp power for you tonight Billy, fuck dad.
:rofl2:
Quote from: fj1289 on October 21, 2016, 01:24:47 PM
Hmmmm......I bet the megasquirt controllers already have enough computing power and look up tables available to handle this with just a bit of code change......
Sure, makes perfect sense. Injectors timed to the valve event, all in one box.
I have not been able to watch the video yet. What air pressure is that running and what is the air pressure source?
Or is it oil pressure driven like the injectors on many diesel engines?
Randy - RPM
3 lines: 1) air in, 2) air out 3) oil.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ppKy6Qp5pLU (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ppKy6Qp5pLU)
Watch the valve float at about 1:36 when the springs start to turn....
https://youtu.be/nsa6kq-qqIE
You want the valves to turn like this so they do not pit the seat or the valve. It starts around :56
https://youtu.be/vcyT18qk8ls
Electric/oil/air valves eliminate this valve float...F1 has been using this technology for years. That is how a F1 engine can turn close to 20k plus
This shit is bad ass...CRANK UP THE VOLUME (click the boxes off the video if they pop up)
https://youtu.be/iWSt4CDNvgQ
Randy - RPM
I'd think the logical progression would be to eliminate the spring altogether and "pull" the valve shut with the actuator -- the ultimate evolution of the "desmo" valve train
Quote from: fj1289 on October 21, 2016, 09:08:40 PM
I'd think the logical progression would be to eliminate the spring altogether and "pull" the valve shut with the actuator -- the ultimate evolution of the "desmo" valve train
The racebikes that are running now already have eliminated metal springs and run air springs. Like Randy said that is to allow them to turn very high rpm's with no valve float. It would be interesting to know what psi the supply tank is and what psi is used to operate the valves. With the tank and air spring system already installed it wouldn't require much work to install air valves instead of the air springs they are currently running. Imagine tuning for a specific ambient air temp and altitude on race day just before the race starts.
Dave
10 years in the future
These Koenigsegg free valve technology bikes are great. Air driven valves so no camshaft to wear out. No cam chain to stretch. No shims to adjust. Can rev to 20,000 rpm because no valve float. Smaller and lighter motor. Room for two carbon fiber HPA(high pressure air) tanks under the seat. Nice and small-- same tanks they use on paintball guns. Just filled from my 3000psi scuba tank. Should be good for a couple hundred miles powering my valves. Need to check my phone and see if there are any scuba shops or paintball stores open along the way to get them refilled. Could store a couple more in the saddle bags or mount a 60 cubic foot SCBA(self contained breathing apparatus) tank like the fireman use on the passenger seat. That should get me a good ways down the road. Wait a minute---could take the better half with me. She always seems to have plenty of hot air........
:biggrin: Dave
Quote from: TexasDave on October 22, 2016, 02:32:47 AM
10 years in the future
...... Wait a minute---could take the better half with me. She always seems to have plenty of hot air........
:biggrin: Dave
....or wait for an election debate and get a couple of trips around the globe. :biggrin:
Noel
Here is a valve cover cut away of an operating BMW car engine revving to 14,000 rpm. Contemporary DOHC with springs engineering. Fun starts at 00:50
https://youtu.be/tKPJHq9hzEQ (https://youtu.be/tKPJHq9hzEQ)
It's almost painful to watch and I don't put my face too close to the monitor, LOL. How engines don't fly apart and turn into portable particle colliders just impresses me all the time.
Quote from: Pat Conlon on October 21, 2016, 12:06:34 PM
Recently I was peeking under a cover at an unnamed motorcycle shop and noticed a FJ cylinder head with the cams missing and all the cam journals milled out and recessed into the head, some sort of strange valve actuators with small hydraulic lines running to them.
Hmmmm, no cams?
Then last week, I saw this in my news feed: http://www.popsci.com/9-greatest-innovations-in-automotives-this-year (http://www.popsci.com/9-greatest-innovations-in-automotives-this-year)
Further investigations: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f4p-55a3WV8 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f4p-55a3WV8)
(http://i1215.photobucket.com/albums/cc517/racerrad8/IMG_2744_zpsd2ah5ra8.jpg)
So any truth to the rumors an RPM Flux Capictor is in the works too? :good2:
10 years in the future
This Koenigsegg computer controlled valve technology is great. Can select one mode for max gas mileage for touring. Second mode for max power with the computer automatically adjusting the timing, EFI, valve lift and duration. All done while travelling down the road. Then there is boost mode activated by a button for far more power. Timing, EFI and now both valves opening and closing on every stroke. Now have a 1200cc TWO STROKE. 30% more power. Only good for short periods and gas mileage is crap but who needs a TURBO?
Dave
The talk of using the engine as an air compressor on deceleration was interesting...
...and no throttle plates to control airflow to the cylinders....
Quote from: Pat Conlon on October 24, 2016, 02:00:42 AM
...and no throttle plates to control airflow to the cylinders....
Pregnant with possibilities... Maybe the good 'ol internal combustion engine hasn't quite given way to the coal-fired electric crapcans just yet... :)
When I was working at Koenigsegg on the development of the powerplant all be it mostly v12 AMG we figured that with tweaking the tec we could knock off 4 cylinders thus using a v8, buy filling on board air tanks via pistons on over run with sufficient air pressure to take place of the turbos and give a rise of 34% power per litre. This we put to test on a Nissan Micra 1.0 made in 2001 with if memory serves 53bhp (at the engine not wheels). We made the head for it minus the cam and with a few other modifications to the inlet and exhaust tracks we managed 68% increase to 89bhp
OK i agree 89bhp is low but 68% is phenomenal, Just think if your bike or car or whatever machine has say 187bhp that goes to 314.16bhp combined with a cleaner more fuel efficient engine
Quote from: Russfjr1 on October 24, 2016, 01:38:52 PM
When I was working at Koenigsegg ...
WHAT!? HOLD ON HERE!
Any chance a few "prototypes" could make it out the door for the 2018 attempt at the Colorado Mile?.....
Quote from: racerrad8 on October 21, 2016, 08:54:42 PM
Watch the valve float at about 1:36 when the springs start to turn....
https://youtu.be/nsa6kq-qqIE
You want the valves to turn like this so they do not pit the seat or the valve. It starts around :56
https://youtu.be/vcyT18qk8ls
Electric/oil/air valves eliminate this valve float...F1 has been using this technology for years. That is how a F1 engine can turn close to 20k plus
This shit is bad ass...CRANK UP THE VOLUME (click the boxes off the video if they pop up)
https://youtu.be/iWSt4CDNvgQ
Randy - RPM
I believe F1 engines use nitrogen instead of air for valve actuator setup from what I have read, not sure of the benefits of either method.
Quote from: Russfjr1 on October 24, 2016, 01:38:52 PM
When I was working at Koenigsegg ....
And I thought you were just a gifted backyard mechanic. Now you've blown your cover! :lol:
Quote from: gumby302ho on October 24, 2016, 07:18:13 PM
I believe F1 engines use nitrogen instead of air for valve actuator setup from what I have read, not sure of the benefits of either method.
I think they use nitrogen in their tires also. Reason is that it expands much less under heat than air, thus maintaining a stabler tire pressure. Maybe a related reason for the air valves? :unknown:
Heres a vid from MotoGP - a few years old now - but interesting still.
MotoGP Workshop™ - Pneumatic valve engines (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yl_VpSnupZw)
An article related to the vid
How Pneumatic Valves Work in MotoGP (http://www.autoevolution.com/news/how-pneumatic-valves-work-in-motogp-video-68568.html)
Now I know why they are making such insane amounts of horsepower now. This would explain why these bikes are unrideable without the electronics. Maybe we'll see another change in engine spec soon. 3 cyl max? 500-750cc?
But if they sounded like this I'd be happy if they only went 100mph
Honda RC166 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AJ2nmmVOKCI)
Quote from: FeralRdr on October 23, 2016, 05:06:41 PM
Quote from: Pat Conlon on October 21, 2016, 12:06:34 PM
Recently I was peeking under a cover at an unnamed motorcycle shop and noticed a FJ cylinder head with the cams missing and all the cam journals milled out and recessed into the head, some sort of strange valve actuators with small hydraulic lines running to them.
Hmmmm, no cams?
Then last week, I saw this in my news feed: http://www.popsci.com/9-greatest-innovations-in-automotives-this-year (http://www.popsci.com/9-greatest-innovations-in-automotives-this-year)
Further investigations: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f4p-55a3WV8 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f4p-55a3WV8)
(http://i1215.photobucket.com/albums/cc517/racerrad8/IMG_2744_zpsd2ah5ra8.jpg)
So any truth to the rumors an RPM Flux Capictor is in the works too? :good2:
I was recently at the RPM shop and prompted by Pat's initial post I also looked under the covering:
Hmm.... not sure about a Flux Capacitor but Pat, if you had looked a little closer into the details, perhaps you would have imagined the increased valve angle (blank head as in the V & H's drag bike) thus allowing for more modern flow characteristics - when coupled with the valve actuators mentioned I can imagine very impressive HP & torque numbers...
Thanks for the suggestion Pat, it keeps things interesting and light hearted.
Midget
Quote from: Russfjr1 on October 24, 2016, 01:38:52 PM
When I was working at Koenigsegg on the development of the powerplant all be it mostly v12 AMG we figured that with tweaking the tec we could knock off 4 cylinders thus using a v8, buy filling on board air tanks via pistons on over run with sufficient air pressure to take place of the turbos and give a rise of 34% power per litre. This we put to test on a Nissan Micra 1.0 made in 2001 with if memory serves 53bhp (at the engine not wheels). We made the head for it minus the cam and with a few other modifications to the inlet and exhaust tracks we managed 68% increase to 89bhp
OK i agree 89bhp is low but 68% is phenomenal, Just think if your bike or car or whatever machine has say 187bhp that goes to 314.16bhp combined with a cleaner more fuel efficient engine
:biggrin: Me working at Koenigsegg :blush: who'd a thunk it :rofl2: well you have to have a laugh now and again don't you :mocking: Sorry just a little porky pie, but I did do my apprenticeship at this little backwater company called Rolls Royce, now that place taught me a multitude. Looking back they were definitely the best days of my working life. Happy days indeed :drinks:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FJXgKY2O4po (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FJXgKY2O4po)