Let me warn you now, there's going to be math. tl/dr version: cutting the stock front springs makes them stiffer.
Ok, so I recently picked up my '87 FJ12. It has good points, but it has bad points. The front suspension was a definite bad point. Way too softly sprung. First response, as usual, is put a different spring. However, says I, there may not be a need for that. According to racetech, the stock spring is .65kg/mm, and I need a .942kg/mm spring. I pulled the stock springs out, and they measured 19" free length, .185" wire diameter, 40 active coils. This equates to .5kg/mm. However the stock coil is split into two separate coil sets, 15 that are .125" spacing and 25 that are .325" spacing. Further, there's about 2" of preload built into the fork caps. So, here comes the math. The close coils are the 'progressive' part of the spring. as soon as the spring compresses more than about 2" they go coil to coil and are no longer a spring, they're a bumpy cylinder. This is based on .125" space between coils times 15 coils equals 1.875" of compression in that part of the spring. The looser coiled section, at .325" times 25 gives about 8.125" of compression before they're coil to coil. This gives a total of 10" of compression available on the spring. Minus 2" for the fork cap preload, the spring can still compress 8". The fork travel is supposed to be 5.9", so we'll call it 6" for rounding. Carrying on, we can now see that we can cut just a bit less than 2" of free space out of the spring and still not be lock to lock on the rest. Going to some of the spring rate calculators online, I looked at the two sections of the spring separately and figured that if I cut my spring to 28 active coils, it should bring me right at .95kg/mm. So, I grabbed the grinder, cut it down to 28 active coils, cutting off most of the progressive section, heated, bent and ground the top coil to match oem, and cut spacers from a pair of old fork spring spacers to bring the length back up to 19" overall. Set the oil level to 6", put everything back together and did some tests. With no additional preload, static sag is now .3", and race sag is 1.9". That's as close to correct as you could hope for, based on race sag being 1/3 of available travel. I took it out on the road and specifically hit some of the crappiest asphalt I could, when I came back I had used about 4" of my travel. So from that standpoint it's a bit stiff. From my MX days the thought was that you should bottom out once per lap since that meant you were using all of your travel. So anyway, the ride is much better and much less wallowing. The front is stiffer, but that's what I was going for. I still have comfortably more free space in the spring than fork travel so I'm not worried about going coil to coil. I do have to replace my fork seals soon, so when I do that I'll go ahead and take about .75" off the spacers I made to soften it up a little, since that seems to be about the travel available in the preload in the fork caps. So, no money spent to get the right fork springs, just a bit of time and math. Now I have to come up with something for the rear end. Pics when I get them off my camera.
I'd see if someone could send you some stock springs and try cutting again -- just a good bit longer. Like I was taught when making a cut on the lathe - take off half of what you need to cut, doing so progressively until you "sneak up" on the size/clearance you need instead of cutting it all at once. This would be a great budget "how-to". I've read similar accounts of cutting the progressive brand springs to eliminate most of the close coils to yield a nearly straight rate spring of a suitable rate.
The Race Tech spring rate calculator assumes you will be using the Race Tech cartridge emulators to control the heavier (straight rate) springs.
I would never consider using heavier .95kg/mm fork springs with my oem damper rod fork valving which was not designed for that heavy spring rate....
A Pogo stick comes to mind.
FJ1289, I was taught the same thing but the problem comes in making new spacers every time you adjust the length of the spring. I figured the math was solid enough to take a chance. Worst case scenario, I needed to buy new springs and if these didn't work out I'd still have to buy new springs. Best case scenario is these work and I don't have to buy new springs. So far they're working great.
Pat, I've never seen anything on their website that states their spring rate is based on using their damping, do you have a link? And as for the pogo stick action of using a stronger spring with the stock damping, that's a common misconception that I didn't experience that in my test ride. The purpose of the spring is to hold the bike up, ideally at a particular point in it's suspension travel. That's it. The damping acts only to control the unsprung weight, i.e. the front wheel and fork lowers. Neither of those things changed. It will rebound slightly faster due to the stronger spring, but in reality the difference is negligible. The uncut spring sagged 3" with me on it, at full preload on the forks, which by necessity put it at 218lbs of preload (.65kg/mm=36.39 inch/lb rate, 1" of preload from adjusters, 2" of preload from fork caps, 3" of sag. That puts a bump of 2" into the 291lb range. My cut springs with a higher rate settle less than 2" with my weight, so it's math works out to 53.19lb/in, 2" of preload from the fork caps and 2" of sag puts me at 212lbs, pretty close to the 218 of the uncut. Which makes sense, because the spring is still holding up the weight of the bike and me, and neither of those changed. Now adding the next two inches of bump as above puts me at 319.14lbs. The stock damping will not in fact be overwhelmed by the additional 30lbs of spring force. It's less than a 10% difference. 10% difference is well within the range of adjustment that could be adjusted with different oil weight; going from the stock 10w to 12.5w would more than cover that range.
Also, for the ~200lbs of preload; the bike is 586lbs wet, with a somewhat forward bias. I'm a svelte 200lbs, also with a somewhat forward weight bias. Which means, roughly, that the front suspension has to hold a little more than half of my weight and half the bike's weight. 786/2=393lbs, divided by two fork springs means each spring has to hold a bit over 196lbs at rest. They carry this weight regardless of spring rate.
Pic of cut with spacer next to uncut
Quote from: fudge12 on August 19, 2016, 12:38:10 PM
Pat, I've never seen anything on their website that states their spring rate is based on using their damping, do you have a link? And as for the pogo stick action of using a stronger spring with the stock damping, that's a common misconception.
Also, for the ~200lbs of preload; the bike is 586lbs wet, with a somewhat forward bias. I'm a svelte 200lbs.
Using both Race Tech's and Sonic Spring's online spring rate calculators, yields similar numbers.
1.0 kg/mm from Sonic's calculator. (215 lb. rider weight including riding gear, no tank bag, 586 lb. wet bike weight, normal street riding on sport tour bike.)
0.95 kg/mm from Race Tech's calculator. (200 lb. rider weight w\o gear).
http://sonicsprings.com/catalog/calculate_spring_rate.php#calculate (http://sonicsprings.com/catalog/calculate_spring_rate.php#calculate)
http://racetech.com/ProductSearch/2/Yamaha/FJ1100/1984-85 (http://racetech.com/ProductSearch/2/Yamaha/FJ1100/1984-85)
**** Unless it's buried somewhere, or I missed it, I saw no mention of Race Tech's spring rates being tailored to their fork valves.
Ok, let us know what you discover.
I've had my FJ for a few years and I can say that I've never considered this mod, although other FJ owners have, back in the mid '80's.
I recall the general consensus was that the oem damper rod forks had severe rebound issues with heavy straight rate springs.
To get a perspective on what can be accomplished, I hope you get a chance to ride a FJ with cartridge emulators and/or IAT valves.
One last point regarding your math: Your 30 year old fork springs are not .65kg/mm.
Perhaps they were in 1987, but not today.
The spring steel Japan used in the '80's/90's was never known to be the most durable.
Still, I am interested in your results and impressions
Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that this is as good a solution as cartridge forks or cartridge emulators. There is an inherent limitation with damper rod forks. I simply offered this as a cheap alternative for people who would otherwise be spending $130 for a set of springs. $215 for a set of cartridge emulators from Randy is a lot more palatable than $345 for both that and the spring. I might could swing one or the other, but not both. Now I don't have to. Given the blue book value of my bike at around $1800, spending 20% of the bike's value doesn't make sense to me. Getting a significant suspension improvement for free, that makes sense. Now, if someone was willing to donate a set to me......
Good deal fudge, I'm glad you are happy with your mod :good:
I shudder to think of how much I have spent on my '84.... I really don't want to know.
I can say without a doubt, that she is a much better motorcycle now, than the day I brought her home.
She is (much) faster, corners harder, handles better, stops quicker, more beautiful, and more comfortable...
....in all, she is a better motorcycle than I am a rider, and I'm ok with that.
As they say: It's all about progress, not perfection.
Quote from: fudge12 on August 19, 2016, 06:29:00 PM
.....spending 20% of the bike's value doesn't make sense to me.
I've spent 200% of the bikes value improving it and it makes sense to me every time I ride it.
If it was a straight out commercial investment you would be correct. However, I view it as an investment in riding (and I've invested plenty!), not over capitalising the bike.
Noel
I too have often sort the cheaper option, fully aware of the total monetary value of the Fj. However, since the actual value of an Fj in real world terms far exceeds this amount, then blowing a wad of cash on the important things can be readily justified. Every now and again items that fall into the paying less could cost you dear category, make themselves painfully visible. An example being chains and the mess a broken one can cause as witnessed at this years West Coast Rally. Then there's the way less visible spending areas like fork internals. OK, so modding the springs is unlikely to causes catastrophic failure, but every time you ride it, your going to appreciate a good front end. Believe me I umed and arhhed and counted my pennies when Randy popped in the valve stacks and new springs, but the difference just weaving round the car lot was worth it. Every mile since, and that's now in the tens of thousands, has chanted, "Andy, you made a good decision".
Quote from: fudge12 on August 19, 2016, 06:29:00 PMspending 20% of the bike's value doesn't make sense to me
You sort of have a point, in that an awesome rear shock and new fork springs / valving are going to be $1,500 whether it's for a used $15,000 K1600GT or a used $1,500 FJ. If you just bought a K1600GT, you could probably find "new shock and fork springs" money vacuuming out the sofa, whereas upgrading the suspension on your new-to-you FJ will cost you "an entire other running FJ."
Then again, the $15,000 BMW already has a pretty good suspension, and it will get only marginally better with a top-shelf shock. By contrast, your FJ was built while Japan Inc. was busy discovering "horsepower" and hadn't quite gotten around to "handling" yet, so the spring rates and damping were lacking even when the bike was new, and it's a long way from new. Better spring rates and damping is "a whole new world" on the FJ.
My bike is in cosmetically rough shape (it has been on the ground a couple times) and it burns a quart of oil in a single tank of fuel if the engine is working hard. And after 113,000 miles, you can actually work this engine hard without going terribly fast. As it sits, it is probably worth somewhere between $1,000 and $1,500. (Today is a high-value day because the tires and brake pads are new and the tank is full.) For the last 40,000 miles, I have been riding it with about $400 worth of Race Tech fork valves and fork springs in front and $900 worth of Penske shock in the back. So, I spent about 100% of the bike's value on a good shock, good fork valving, and the correct springs for my weight. This is some of the best money I have ever spent. With radial tires (and a 17"x5" YZF600R rear wheel) and with new front brake pads in the FZ1 calipers, it will stop and turn like a modern bike - a well-sorted modern bike - and everyone who has ridden both likes it better than the Ducati 998 I bought last year. Every time I ride my crappy-looking bike with its amazing handling and magic-carpet rough-road performance, I congratulate myself on money well-spent.
I'm in favor of making your own thing if it's just as good as a store-bought thing, or of substituting a different better thing. (My wheel bearings didn't come from the Yamaha store, they came from the SKF store, and I was happy to do without the Yamaha part number for a 60% savings.) But I don't see any benefit in short-changing myself on replacement parts just because we all found a good deal on the buy-in. My $1,500 FJ is getting the good chain and sprockets every 20,000 miles instead of the cheap ones because it works better. I've tried it the $100 way, and it sucks every time. I'll do it the $200 way and it'll be right the entire 20,000 mile life of the chain and sprockets.
My sister's house in the NY suburb where we grew up cost about five times what I paid for the last house I bought in Ass Crack, Georgia. I slept like a champ last time I visited her, because the bed and linens in the guest room were really nice. It would be a false economy to outfit my bedroom at home with a $30 set of scratchy-ass polyester linens stretched over a no-name crap mattress, just because duplicating the nice stuff in her house would cost a whole per cent what my entire house cost while the cheap stuff keeps the cost proportional.
It's funny I paid $600 for my 86 with 10,000 miles on it. I have put about $7,000 into it.
Including the 1350 motor 163hp/114 to. It's about 55lbs lighter than stock. And it makes me smile every time I ride it. It's my work of art. And worth every penny. But I also have a lot of fun doing it the hands on way. 2008 gsxr1000 front end. And Honda rear shock. Keep us posted and keep having fun.
When you park your bike, and when you walk away, do you find yourself turning around to look at her?
You do?
Yep, the FJ fire is still burning.
What Bill and Dan both said is awesome...... :hi:
Fred
P.S. by the way Pat...... Yes I do. :biggrin:
Yah I park at work, so when I'm coming down the main aisle I can see it. Makes me happy.
Trust me, I'm with you. If the FJ was my only bike, I'd be pouring all of my bike budget into it. However, having had newer bikes, I realize that no matter what you do to the suspension, the frame is still flexy. No matter how much HP you make, it's not as smooth as a newer bike. 55lbs lighter than stock is still 30lbs heavier than a stock FZ1, and 50 lbs heavier than an FZ1 with an aftermarket exhaust, plus the FZ1 had 40K mile valve checks. FJ12 has a wheelbase 15mm longer than a hyabusa, and 45mm longer than a first gen FZ1. Progress is awesome. My Versys has cartridge forks from the factory, and an R1 rear shock. I know how good suspension feels. My FZ1 was piped and jetted to 140rwhp, no mods to the engine. I know how good it can get. I don't, however, judge bikes purely by specs. I just don't see the value for me in spending that much money to make a bike that is still limited by it's 30year old frame. I don't hold it against anyone who spends the money to improve their bike, if I was to put a dollar figure on my GL1000 that still doesn't run I'd cry. Don't care, it makes me happy. My MT-16 will probably never run well if at all, but it still makes me giggle every time I sit on it. But having had as many bikes as I have recently, I'd rather enjoy the FJ for what it is and trade it for something else in a year or two. If I wanted absolute performance I'd have picked up an R1 or a Ducati at some point. Not my thing. I've found that 100hp is about what I can reasonably use on the street, so that's my upper limit now. At the dyno pull I took the FJ to, the bike immediately prior to me made 220+HP. More than double what the FJ did. Didn't mean he enjoyed his bike more than I enjoy mine, or that his was any more useful or faster on the street.
As it is, I have a lot of bikes, so the bike money has to be spread across all of them. Zero dollars for a suspension improvement seems like money well spent, and if someone else can use the info then I feel like I've contributed some. Yes I look at the FJ12 when I walk away from it. I do the same to the Versys and the Blast. Heck, I got the blast specifically because I'd be quite cross if someone dropped the FJ, so it was easier for me to get a throwaway bike instead. But I still love it for what it is, not what I could make it.
I think we probably agree more than we disagree. I too love the bikes for what they are. (In my scenario, the role of "Buell Blast" would be filled by "another 250 Ninja." I just like those things.)
My mind may be changed by a ride on an FZ1. But for the time being, I feel like I would prefer the FJ with its current upgraded suspension and brakes, and with an eventual engine rebuild. I liked it stock, I like it even more this way, and I'd like it even more with a powerplant that is smoother and more powerful. For years, all my FJ friends would bring FZ1s and FJRs to rallies and say "this is what the FJ would be if they still built it today - sport-toury, smoother, water-cooled and fuel-injected, with good suspension and better tires." It's not rational, I just like it.
Similarly, I'm keeping the 998 for the time being. (Although it could use the forks set up, and the rear shock either set up or replaced, by someone who knows what they're doing.) It's theoretically great in some ways (although I embarrassed it at Barber Motorsports Park last month) but I don't like it because it's particularly great. Shoot, with me on the 998 and Andrew on the FJ, I can't keep up with Andrew on the FJ. (The only way I could even tell "he is too far ahead of me for me to see" rather than "he has run off the mountainside" is because I could still smell the smoke from all the oil the FJ's engine burns.) I just like it because it makes me feel particularly great.
Eventually, I could see restoring the FJ cosmetically like I did with my '91 Miata back in 2002. (That was "my $14,000 oil change." I started off changing the oil on my Miata with 212,000 miles on it, wound up pulling the engine, wound up taking it so far apart that three of us lifted it, before putting it back together better than new. I could have kept a ratty '91 Miata and gotten a $14,000 used Boxster to supplement it, but instead I spent the money making the Miata I always wanted. There's a pattern here.) Maybe after the rebuild. For the time being, the 998 is because "I could spend $5,500 on an FJ motor, or I could spend $5,500 on Ducati Dave's 998 and have two bikes." But we'll see how the career thing works out in the next few years, because I sure would like both.
And if I keep the 998, I sure won't shy away from a Ducati part that costs $x just because it's a larger percentage of a 998's value than a Panigale's value.
Totally in agreement. I spent a good chunk of the value of my Yukon recently to rebuild the transfer case, because the yukon is worth more to me than the trade-in value plus the cost of the tcase rebuild. They don't make the 8.1L anymore. I bring up the FZ1 only because I had one, so I have the direct comparison. A buddy of mine had the bandit 12, which is probably a closer comparison to the FJ12. I didn't like it. I think a big difference for me is that I consider every bike temporary. If something captures my heart (GL1K and MT-16) they stay. Everything else is an experience to enjoy, then remember fondly or otherwise (I hated my Bandit 600) as I experience something else. The FJ is everything I thought it would be, 30 years ago. The FZ1 was amazing, and probably the second best bike I've owned (V-strom 650 was the best for me) and is by necessity the basis of comparison for it's predecessor. It just had more horsepower than I could comfortably use on the street. So it went away, and was replaced by the Vstrom 650. Life is too short for me to keep riding the same bike.
My problem is letting them go. That's why I have 10 now. :dash2:
That's not a problem for me. I figure I can only justify having insurance and registration on three at a time, so that's my limit for running bikes. If something else catches my fancy, one of the three have to go. Also it's only because of the FJ that the number is three. It's normally two, but I wanted the FJ enough to modify the rule.
So I went ahead and installed the new fork seals today. Fairly simple, yank the forks, disassemble, reassemble, reinstall. Did a bit of cleanup on the fork tubes with 800g sandpaper to fit rid of the roughness that caused the seal failure in the first place. Also cut about 3/4" off my spring extension tubes for less preload, and when I refilled I set the height at 6.25" instead of 6" so it should be a bit softer. Challenges were that my brand new bottle of 10w fork oil was only 3/4 full (it did have two cap seals though) so I filled the rest with some 10-30 to thicken it up slightly. While I had the front end apart I got rid of the anti-dive brake hoses and bled the brakes. Challenge there is that the brakes seem to drag an awful lot, leading me to believe a rebuild kit is in order. So what costs more, a rebuild kit or a set of the much-ballyhooed 'blue-dot' calipers? Also when rolling my wheel and looking at it I seem to perhaps have a bit of a flat spot on the rim. Anyone did the 17" upgrade and want to sell their old one? Usual for old bikes, nickel and dime.
Answered my own question. eBay blue dots were $50, rebuild kit was $24. Plus apparently the calipers only work on newer fork legs, so rebuild kit ordered.
Today I installed a aftermarket dog bone and a two brothers slipon on a 2016 CBR 1000 200 miles on the bike.I test drove it after the install and I'll take my 86 fj over it any day.I've riding a lot of the new cruisers super sports.I'm not impressed with new technology
Quote from: Shane4371 on October 13, 2016, 12:04:24 AM
Today I installed a aftermarket dog bone and a two brothers slipon on a 2016 CBR 1000 200 miles on the bike.I test drove it after the install and I'll take my 86 fj over it any day.I've riding a lot of the new cruisers super sports.I'm not impressed with new technology
Yeah, love makes you blind... :lol:
Although we try not to consider hard facts when it comes to our beloved FJ's, it is a fact that a modern sports/tourer bike rides/handles/brakes MUCH better than our dinosaurs :biggrin:
I don't know what the complaining is about the fj suspension. I adj ust mine for a passenger.and for myself.and im very pleased with handling.I run radial tires andc0/30 weight oil in my forks other then that its great.I take 25 mph curves AT 55 and don't blink.
Quote from: Shane4371 on October 13, 2016, 06:44:52 AM
I don't know what the complaining is about the fj suspension. I adj ust mine for a passenger.and for myself.and im very pleased with handling.I run radial tires andc0/30 weight oil in my forks other then that its great.I take 25 mph curves AT 55 and don't blink.
Yeah, it's easy to get carried away with mods being the norm here, folks tend to forget a bog standard FJ is still a very capable and rideable machine. The hardest and fastest miles I ever put on my bike were when it was completely standard,, including track days.
IMO
I rode my brothers fjr and it's butter smooth. But actually I didn't like it. I felt disconnected, from the road, from the speed. That it got to extremely fast. No wonder they call them a Super Sonic couch. Didn't like e at all.
Quote from: fudge12 on August 20, 2016, 05:29:30 PM
Trust me, I'm with you. If the FJ was my only bike, I'd be pouring all of my bike budget into it. However, having had newer bikes, I realize that no matter what you do to the suspension, the frame is still flexy. No matter how much HP you make, it's not as smooth as a newer bike. 55lbs lighter than stock is still 30lbs heavier than a stock FZ1, and 50 lbs heavier than an FZ1 with an aftermarket exhaust, plus the FZ1 had 40K mile valve checks. FJ12 has a wheelbase 15mm longer than a hyabusa, and 45mm longer than a first gen FZ1. Progress is awesome. My Versys has cartridge forks from the factory, and an R1 rear shock. I know how good suspension feels. My FZ1 was piped and jetted to 140rwhp, no mods to the engine. I know how good it can get. I don't, however, judge bikes purely by specs. I just don't see the value for me in spending that much money to make a bike that is still limited by it's 30year old frame. I don't hold it against anyone who spends the money to improve their bike, if I was to put a dollar figure on my GL1000 that still doesn't run I'd cry. Don't care, it makes me happy. My MT-16 will probably never run well if at all, but it still makes me giggle every time I sit on it. But having had as many bikes as I have recently, I'd rather enjoy the FJ for what it is and trade it for something else in a year or two. If I wanted absolute performance I'd have picked up an R1 or a Ducati at some point. Not my thing. I've found that 100hp is about what I can reasonably use on the street, so that's my upper limit now. At the dyno pull I took the FJ to, the bike immediately prior to me made 220+HP. More than double what the FJ did. Didn't mean he enjoyed his bike more than I enjoy mine, or that his was any more useful or faster on the street.
As it is, I have a lot of bikes, so the bike money has to be spread across all of them. Zero dollars for a suspension improvement seems like money well spent, and if someone else can use the info then I feel like I've contributed some. Yes I look at the FJ12 when I walk away from it. I do the same to the Versys and the Blast. Heck, I got the blast specifically because I'd be quite cross if someone dropped the FJ, so it was easier for me to get a throwaway bike instead. But I still love it for what it is, not what I could make it.
I was wondering about your saying the Fj weighing more than fz1. I just looked it up stock 86 Fj 571(mine is 55lbs lighter 516), fz1 509 .,Hayabusa 586. All wet of course. Horsepower I'm way down 163vrs busa 194? Torque same 114/114.
I know that the new stuff is way better. Than my 30 year old bike is. And better than I can make mine. As well they should be. But as crazy as I've been. Throwing money at it. I'm at about $7800. A new busa $14,999?. Insurance less than $200. Licence $19 once and forever. Ability to work on it myself. Priceless.
I guess I like the Fj because I can change it. Mess with it. And afford to mess around changing it. If I had done as much to a busa(as an example) to improve it as much as I have the Fj. I would probably be around $25-30,000.
And yes thank you for showing us You can make improvements without spending money. I love learning from others projects.
Keep in mind, the same things you did to the FJ would make the FZ weigh correspondingly less. I only bring that bike up because I had one, and it's still by far one of my favorite bikes. New? I bought a new bike in '89, and not since. Heck, I only gave $1 per cc for the fudge! That said, i was out on the Versys the other day and noticed that I have 50K miles on it, compared to 11K on the FJ and 7K on the blast, and those bikes came with most of the miles. Clear favorite. In a quandary now though, I'm about to go on a 4 day trip with my youngest son, Back of the Dragon in southern virginia. Do I take the versys and him take the blast, or do I take the FJ and put him on the versys?
Sorry, new puppy had to go out. Anyway, I love the FJ, but it's now at 11K miles and I'm pretty sure it hasn't had it's valves adjusted yet so that's a factor. My front tire is 5 years old, which is a factor. The boy hasn't ridden anything other than the blast in a long time, and before that put a couple hundred miles on a VFR700. Decisions, decisions...
I do have to say though that for the past month or so, every time a bike was pulled out of the barn for a ride, it's been the FJ. I've polished it up to near new (exaggeration, but not much) and added a bunch of reflective stickers all over it (color matched to black and red, so from 2' away from the bike they're invisible but it looks like a tron bike in headlights.) Definitely haven't rubbed the versys with polish in a year or two.
Interesting thread, although rather unique.
Having just attended the most recent Rally, I had the pleasure to accompany Mr. Conlon & Mr. Thiel in almost 300 miles of riding (and many additional miles at other events) - I do not believe they have any problem with "frame flex"... and their engines are not even close to stock HP output with the ability of passing anything in sight effortlessly & at will - I would also suggest, fudge12, a ride with the Wizard: it is recommended that Mrs. B accompany Frank so as to keep the speeds reasonable - however it may prove problematic if the "frame flex" you mention is not apparent thus hampering your conclusion. Any three of those riders and their motorcycles, as with with Brutus (from down South), Fred and Giant Killer from the central regions, all of whom I have had the pleasure of riding with over these last several years, certainly excels your modest FJ expectations, not to mention your interesting "conclusions".
Add into the equation motorcyclists such as Mr. French, Olsen, Zari, the Captain, Firehawk (and others) and FJ acquits itself in a most competent manner.
As far as the cost of suspension componets vs. the cost of an FJ - it is my experience that with the a modest investment the FJ competes with almost any other motorcycle, regardless if it is cross country sojourns or spirited back country riding. All the money not spent on a more "modern" motorcycle contributes to the expense of many a mile of riding pleasure.
Ride safe.
i refer again to my signature; The best you've ridden is the best you know. I love the FJ, but I can accept the reality that it is not, and cannot be made into, a modern bike. And that's OK. If it's your pleasure to close the gap between them then I applaud your efforts. That's not where my enjoyment is. It surprises me how many replies seem to be implying that my version of enjoying the FJ is wrong, or that because some people do it differently they're enjoying it more or more correctly. Especially since this thread is about improving the suspension? Thanks for the warm welcome guys. Now can we get back to talking about fork springs on the cheap?
Quote from: fudge12 on October 19, 2016, 12:07:41 AM
The best you've ridden is the best you know. I love the FJ, but I can accept the reality that it is not, and cannot be made into, a modern bike. And that's OK.
I must say that I have to agree with this.
I love my FJ, but having ridden many of my friends modern bikes, there is really no comparison when it comes to handling, speed, agility and braking. I have upgraded suspension, brakes, tires, etc.. on my FJ, but it still feels old compared to modern bikes, and as fudge12 says: That's OK :pardon:
Quote from: fudge12 on October 19, 2016, 12:07:41 AM
i refer again to my signature; The best you've ridden is the best you know. I love the FJ, but I can accept the reality that it is not, and cannot be made into, a modern bike. And that's OK. If it's your pleasure to close the gap between them then I applaud your efforts. That's not where my enjoyment is. It surprises me how many replies seem to be implying that my version of enjoying the FJ is wrong, or that because some people do it differently they're enjoying it more or more correctly. Especially since this thread is about improving the suspension? Thanks for the warm welcome guys. Now can we get back to talking about fork springs on the cheap?
Other than complimenting others in the FJ community, nothing personal intended nor do I read the implication where your "...version of enjoying the FJ is wrong" - neither is the claim made by anyone that the FJ is as refined as a modern motorcycle.
I simply addressed a subject that was raised by you - power and performance & the inconsequence of "frame flex" in the context that it seems not to hamper the faster FJ's.
Concerning the cost of upgrades, those that I have made suit me and how I ride quite well - and my statement that the money saved of the upgrades vs a new motorcycle (and the attendant maintenance and insurance costs) is money spent on riding expenses remains valid.
My observation is that in today's real world the FJ remains competitive, that's all that I have said.
If I may suggest, attend a Rally and observe for yourself.
http://www.fjowners.com/index.php?topic=13015.0 (http://www.fjowners.com/index.php?topic=13015.0)
I wouldn't presume to speak for others, but it seems that the inestimable Mr. Conlon, and a few others besides, have had issues with frame flex. Bolts breaking, frame cracking. Whether it "hampers" the faster FJ's or my conclusions, it's a fact that the frame is flexy compared to modern bikes. I may attend a rally if one comes up while I still have it, but I doubt that it'd convince me that doubling the cost of the bike in improvements is a better value to me than swapping it out for another on my list of bikes to own. Read my introduction post, if you haven't. It'll explain a lot.
Quote from: 4everFJ on October 19, 2016, 01:37:00 AM
Quote from: fudge12 on October 19, 2016, 12:07:41 AM
The best you've ridden is the best you know. I love the FJ, but I can accept the reality that it is not, and cannot be made into, a modern bike. And that's OK.
but it still feels old compared to modern bikes, and as fudge12 says: That's OK :pardon:
....and therein lies its charm!
I have a current model Toyota VX Prado (Lexus something or other in the US) and a 20 year old V8 Land Rover Discovery (mint). The Prado is fantastic, bristling with technology, amazing off road capable, economical, comfortable etc. If both are parked in the drive, available, accessable and I have both sets of keys on me, I will take the Discovery every time (unless going on a trip). I just love driving it. The Prado does everything many times better than the Discovery, but has no character, it's just a machine without a soul. I don't pretend it is or even want it to be like the Prado because, I enjoy it for what it is, The fact the FJ is not a modern bike is why I like it.
I have a late model 1200cc bike sitting next to the FJ, adjustable on the fly suspension, stability control, traction control, ABS, EFI more grunt than the FJ, more comfortable and way better set up for trips.
A fortnight ago I headed off for a 2000km weekend with the promise of foul weather for much of the time. I considered taking the other bike if only for its spacious waterproof hard luggage. Standing naked in my motel room the first night with everything I had brought with me soaked and draped over heaters and the motel hair dryer going flat out, there was not a moment I regretted my choice in taking the FJ. It just wouldn't have been the same on the other bike.
I have spent a lot of money upgrading the FJ and it's way better to ride as a result but I don't pretend nor expect it to be a modern bike, just as the modern bike could never be an FJ!
Everyone enjoys their bikes for different reasons, from garage queen to bush basher and the FJ does it all, how cool's that.
Noel / IMO
I've ridden a lot of modern machinery, and I continue doing it
Part of them have worst production quality, specially in suspensions, swing arms, bearings...
Others have electronics that I don´t like, thanks. I know how to ride a bike without ABS, traction control or Wi-Fi (are we speaking of bikes or about video game consoles?). Is that trickery really needed? (well, yes because a modern R engine would be undriveable)
Most of them have ergonomics designed for Cirque du Soleil artists. I'm human
You need special computer assisted technology to simply check the bike. I do everything in my FJ
All of them could be break in the middle of Croatia, Portugal, France or Mainland Spain simply due to hot in summer and a deficiency head gasket, or an electronic failure (BMW?) ...4.000 kms away from my home in Tenerife, and with an Ocean in the middle
I know my FJ is not the faster, the most comfortable, have the better handling or is the most agile bike in the world. But do everything, from city traffic to 10.000 kms. travels in summer without hesitation, alone or with a lot of luggage, including closed track incursions and play with people in modern tackle
And everything in the (near) most reliable bike on the world and dead easy to maintain on the road
YES. MY FJ IS THE BEST BIKE IN THE WORLD
So is my Versys! :drinks:
Actually, I should clarify. I love the ability to work on the FJ. I love the lack of need to work on my Versys. I love the smoothness of the carbs on the FJ, I love the ability to hook my laptop to the versys PowerCommander and change it's fuelling without getting my hands dirty. I love both bikes for different reasons. That said, I've kept the Versys longer than any other bike I've had, because it's as close to the perfect bike for me as I've found.
And Ribbert, I understand totally. I have a nice modern SUV, that has good handling, suspension, brakes, monster stereo, good mileage, the whole nine yards. I also have a 3/4 ton, 8.1l Yukon which is none of those things. The yukon is a monster, and I love it. Actually I took the boy out yesterday to see if he'd explode or crash on the Versys or the FJ, and he said the FJ reminded him of the Yukon! He also said that he didn't notice any of the bumps in the road on the Versys but felt them on the FJ, and that the Versys turns if you think about it while the FJ takes a very heavy push on the bar. From the mouths of babes..
Quote from: Alf on October 19, 2016, 09:03:55 AM
Others have electronics that I don´t like, thanks. I know how to ride a bike without ABS, traction control or Wi-Fi (are we speaking of bikes or about video game consoles?). Is that trickery really needed? (well, yes because a modern R engine would be undriveable)
All of them could be break in the middle of Croatia, Portugal, France or Mainland Spain simply due to hot in summer and a deficiency head gasket, or an electronic failure (BMW?) ...4.000 kms away from my home in Tenerife, and with an Ocean in the middle
Alf, taking nothing away from the FJ (I love mine and would never sell it) but all that modern trickery
is fantastic and as for reliability, well, they are just that, reliable.
As an old school mechanic I used to the lament the passing of all the skills I learnt and rarely see these days. The skill has 100% gone out of mechanics and they have become nothing more than parts replacers. Diagnostic skill a forgotten, or these days, never learnt art. It's one of the reasons I work on old (pre-war) cars, I enjoy using that knowledge and experience and there's little call for it elsewhere.
Then it occurred to me that the skills have disappeared because there is no demand for them. Modern motor vehicles are basically sealed for life units that will travel hundreds of thousands of miles without a major glitch.
The odd reliability issue is usually a design flaw that didn't come to light until put into production, not a reliability issue per se.
For me the FJ is the best bike in world -
for what I want. Any comparison with a modern bike is apples and oranges. If it rode like a modern bike I'd just have to go and find something else that rode like an FJ because that's what I like, it's a great mix of classic and modern.
IMO
Quote from: ribbert on October 19, 2016, 09:42:02 AM
Then it occurred to me that the skills have disappeared because there is no demand for them. Modern motor vehicles are basically sealed for life units that will travel hundreds of thousands of miles without a major glitch.
I don't agree with you, sorry. Simply the motorbikes are now a consumer society article and Makers don't produce to last, only to sell more and more, with a programmed obsolescence due to the dictatorship of marketing tendencies.
It is like an old Westinghouse fridge that my grandmother owned for 50 years. Now the fridges don't last more than 5 years
Take a closer look at a modern machinery: everything is bakelite, screws are s**t, the painting flake in 2 years or decolorate, in many cases there are not dogbones at the suspension, the swingarms are of very poor quality....
Speaking with a friend of mine that works painting and repairing motorbikes, he says that today 50% of the crashes imply the total destruction of the bike. 20 years ago this did not happen
Bang for the buck, our FJ's are a bargain. Yes, they have their warts. Yes, we improve them as we wish or as we can afford, it's fun to do.
Yes, it's nice for an owner to be able to work on them (if they wish) Yes, dealers are expensive.
No, FJ's are not the best bike on the planet.
Although.....When it comes time for new rings in your FJ engine, you will be glad you don't have Nikasil plated cylinder bores.
Quote from: Pat Conlon on October 19, 2016, 10:38:56 AM
Bang for the buck, our FJ's are a bargain.
Sing it brother! A dollar a CC, plus a couple hundred for tires, carb rebuild kits, etc. and some quality time out in the barn with some music and a beer for a bike I've wanted for 30 years? You can't get that kind of bargain many places.
Quote from: fudge12 on August 20, 2016, 05:29:30 PM
...I realize that no matter what you do to the suspension, the frame is still flexy.
Quote from: fudge12 on October 19, 2016, 08:38:04 AM
http://www.fjowners.com/index.php?topic=13015.0 (http://www.fjowners.com/index.php?topic=13015.0)
I wouldn't presume to speak for others, but it seems that the inestimable Mr. Conlon, and a few others besides, have had issues with frame flex. Bolts breaking, frame cracking.
So, I am not sure about cracked frames. I am only aware of a couple that I can recall. One was a torn cross member at the rear upper shock mount due to the twisting motion of the mount, not a crack. The crack was due to a failed weld, which was a oddity not a common documented issue.
No, I will say that all of the bikes I have worked on with sheared off lower bolt(s) were most likely a result of the bolts being loose. Not just the lower bolts being loose but the upper bolts as well. When I pull frame rails it is common for the bolts to be loose and there be signs of friction rust present. I always replace the lower bolts with grade 10.9 external hex washer head bolts to ensure they are properly torqued and the upper bolts are also check and replaced as required. Once they are replaced away from the factory allen head bolts that problem has been eliminated. I am not sure if Yamaha got them tight enough originally.
Now, one more thing that I brought to the table in bringing current suspension technology to the FJ, was the reduction of spring rate. With the RPM fork valves and rear shock, we are running spring rates just slightly stiffer than the stock rates. When using other after market shocks and fork valves the spring rate sometimes exceed 1300 lbs in the rear and it is not uncommon to run 1.0kg or greater fork springs.
So, the newer technologies have allowed lighter spring rates and reduce frame flex and improve the quality of ride & performance.
Randy - RPM
I'm thinking if you are feeling a lot of flex in the FJ frame you missed your calling - you have the God given raw abilities suitable for Moto GP or as a test rider for tire development.
Most complaints about flex concern the stock forks for people who aggressively countersteer the bike from one side to another, or from the swingarm from people who have substantially increased the horsepower (200 +).
I never said I could feel the flex that I'm aware of, but I'll reread my posts to be sure. I just pointed out that bolting on better, stiffer suspension would still be on that flexy frame. Way back when USD forks were new, dirtbike manufacturers started bolting them on. Turned out that the massively stiffer forks started causing frame breaks at the neck because the bike wasn't designed for them. Sometimes an improvement in one area finds a different weak point. I put a tuner and a couple other goodies on my Yukon. Less than a year later it ate the transfer case. Chasing weak points.
Randy, what do you believe caused the bolts to loosen? Not trying to be a smart as, I really want to know your opinion. I would theorize that the bolts were undersized and didn't have enough clamping pressure, causing movement under heavy load; frame flex. Perhaps if it had locating dowels the smaller bolts would have been able to separate the load, bolts in tension and dowels in shear.
You do have a good point about spring rate though.
Quote from: fudge12 on October 19, 2016, 02:18:00 PM
Randy, what do you believe caused the bolts to loosen? I would theorize that the bolts were undersized and didn't have enough clamping pressure, causing movement under heavy load; frame flex. Perhaps if it had locating dowels the smaller bolts would have been able to separate the load, bolts in tension and dowels in shear.
I do not think you can get the stock allen head bolts tight enough. That is why I replace them with harder, hex & flanged head bolts. That allows me to get them tighter than the allen bolt and spreads the clamping force out over the flanged head.
Dowel pins would also help.
Randy - RPM
Accepting the inevitable that this is no longer a thread about cheap suspension upgrades, it occurred to me that most of the bikes in the thread I linked to about the broken bolts are the rubber mounted engine models. I wonder if the earlier bikes are less affected because the engine acts as a stressed member?
My 89' came with one of the lower frame rails bolts missing.
Frame flex?
I do testify that in a closed track the first thing that touch the tarmac are the footpegs. When you fit higher footpegs, the lower cowl. After, the silencers. So you fit a 4/1 and then you touch with the lower front frame rails. And in the meanwhile, I´m not capable of any feeling of any kind of frame flex. Maybe I am not fast enough...
Phill Hacker even have drilled the front frame rails to loose weight. He never has spoken about frame flex
Maybe he is not fast enough...
Again, frame flex? :nea:
Post deleted because I was rude, and I apologize. If you don't believe that a 32 year old frame design, made of mild steel, with removable rails located only by bolts is flexible compared to modern frames, then nothing I say is going to change your mind and we'll have to agree to disagree. :hi:
Quote from: fudge12 on October 19, 2016, 02:47:59 PM
Accepting the inevitable that this is no longer a thread about cheap suspension upgrades...
That is how a lot of conversations morph from one topic to another...
From your fork spring mod, to how much people spend on their FJ's, to how good they look and now to frame flex...
Randy - RPM
True, and I was wrong to fight it. Oh well, you live, you learn, you get old, you get ugly. :flag_of_truce:
I love my FJ, I love my Versys, I even love my Blast. Next year I'll love something else, the monkey will hold up the lion cub and the circle of life will continue. :drinks:
(http://www.thestar.com.my/~/media/online/2014/06/11/11/05/str2_cn_1206_disney_lionking_leadpic.ashx?la=en)
Quote from: fudge12 on October 19, 2016, 03:29:17 PM
Post deleted because I was rude, and I apologize. If you don't believe that a 32 year old frame design, made of mild steel, with removable rails located only by bolts is flexible compared to modern frames, then nothing I say is going to change your mind and we'll have to agree to disagree. :hi:
I´ve not compared the FJ chassis with any other. I´ve only said that I´m not so fast to notice that flex... or Phill Hacker anyway, with 180 cv rear wheel horsepower. Maybe you feel the flexy chassis, I dont know.
And a super strong rigid chassis is not the best for the open road anyway (ZXRs come to my mind)
So my FJ continues being not the best bike in all departments, but the best for me :greeting:
Quote from: fudge12 on October 19, 2016, 03:29:17 PM
Post deleted because I was rude, and I apologize. If you don't believe that a 32 year old frame design, made of mild steel, with removable rails located only by bolts is flexible compared to modern frames, then nothing I say is going to change your mind and we'll have to agree to disagree. :hi:
I agree there is "some" frame flex -- but not enough for the vast majority of any riders to notice. I think the frame flex discussion is academic and not a factor in real world performance.
Also, the examples of issues attributed to frame flex seem to be isolated incidents caused by individual issues vice a series wide issue.
Also, as I recall, it was "only" a decade or so after the FJ the manufacturers went too far with frame stiffness and lost grip on the corners. Im sure I'd never get to the level of riding that I could tell the difference! Especially not on street tires.
And my point was never that frame flex was an issue, or that I could feel it. It was that bolting a larger, stiffer swing arm and stiff upside down forks didn't make sense to me because for the same money I could instead buy a bike that already had them, and had a frame designed to take advantage of them.
Evidently you have not read any of the replies to your posts. Many of us already own modern bikes with modern suspensions and still enjoy the FJ. We also get satisfaction from improving the FJ to make it a better handling bike.
Dave
Quote from: TexasDave on October 20, 2016, 06:08:45 AM
Evidently you have not read any of the replies to your posts. Many of us already own modern bikes with modern suspensions and still enjoy the FJ. We also get satisfaction from improving the FJ to make it a better handling bike.
Dave
Not sure if 'many' is accurate.
From what I see in the profiles of some members who bother to put the other bikes that they own in their profiles, I don't see many references to newer bikes. Of course, there are some that do own newer bikes, and some that can be described as lurkers, who don't post for reasons of their own, and their ownership of other bikes is an unknown.
There are also other members who do own contemporary bikes, and still own an FJ, hang onto it, so they can still technically be an FJ Owner, but for the most part, ride their new bike. I have seen this firsthand.
Evidently you don't read my posts either. Look at the list of bikes I have, reference my intro post to see the bikes I've had. I have a modern bike, with good suspension. I have the FJ. I have a Ukrainian sidecar. Did I ever say I didn't enjoy the FJ? No, I'm pretty sure I said that I do. Did I ever say that you're not allowed to enjoy your FJ? Nope, didn't say that. So your point was?
Quote from: fudge12 on October 20, 2016, 07:09:13 AM
Evidently you don't read my posts either. Look at the list of bikes I have, reference my intro post to see the bikes I've had. I have a modern bike, with good suspension. I have the FJ. I have a Ukrainian sidecar. Did I ever say I didn't enjoy the FJ? No, I'm pretty sure I said that I do. Did I ever say that you're not allowed to enjoy your FJ? Nope, didn't say that. So your point was?
Did not accuse you of saying anything! The only reference to you was in reading the replies made to your post. My point being just because it makes no sense to you to upgrade an FJ it does make sense to some of us.
Dave
Quote from: FJ1100mjk on October 20, 2016, 06:56:59 AM
.....Of course, there are some that do own newer bikes, and some that can be described as lurkers, who don't post for reasons of their own, and their ownership of other bikes is an unknown.
I guess that's because it's an FJ forum. Other bikes/cars/airplanes/boats etc are not really pertinent.
Noel
Quote from: ribbert on October 20, 2016, 07:53:41 AM
Quote from: FJ1100mjk on October 20, 2016, 06:56:59 AM
.....Of course, there are some that do own newer bikes, and some that can be described as lurkers, who don't post for reasons of their own, and their ownership of other bikes is an unknown.
I guess that's because it's an FJ forum. Other bikes/cars/airplanes/boats etc are not really pertinent.
Noel
I have a smart car that I'm going to put an rx1 sled motor in. Doesn't make sense. And is going to be scary As hell. But sure is going to be fun smoking newer high dollar sports cars. :sarcastic:
I'll happily concede that bolting on new suspension bits doesn't change the fact that it is a dated design.
For me, part of the fun of FJ ownership is how well they respond to relatively simple upgrades. This is a bike that invites and rewards you for participating in making it your own. As long as you don't stray too far from basic mods, it is difficult not to get good results (assuming of course you do the work properly!)
Would I be money ahead to be buying a newer bike? Yes and no. For some being mechanically involved is a very satisfying part of ownership. For others, they see each bike as it rolled off the showroom floor as the sum total - so they have to go to another bike in order to upgrade. Neither camp is wrong -- but at times are rather foreign to each other!
Giantkiller, that sounds like a hoot! I love surprising people in 'sports cars' with my Yukon
Fj1289, I do both and enjoy both. I'm all about improvements, but since I swap bikes out so often I've greatly reduced the amount of time and money I'm willing to put into them.
Quote from: ribbert on October 20, 2016, 07:53:41 AM
Quote from: FJ1100mjk on October 20, 2016, 06:56:59 AM
.....Of course, there are some that do own newer bikes, and some that can be described as lurkers, who don't post for reasons of their own, and their ownership of other bikes is an unknown.
I guess that's because it's an FJ forum. Other bikes/cars/airplanes/boats etc are not really pertinent.
Noel
How true. Unfortunate in a sense too.
Seems like things here have devolved. The biggest draw of late, was the banter on the political post about Clinton or Trump, but that will be old hat sometime after November 8th.
Same things seem to get recycled, over and over. Heated grips, Blue Dots, 17" rims and tire preferences, certain rallies, dirty carbs... Sigh. :hang1:
Whatever became of the FJ fuel injection project? That's pertinent, and of technical interest.
On another forum, that I visit sporadically, someone posted "What Happened to This Forum?" Same could be started here.
Quote from: FJ1100mjk on October 21, 2016, 04:19:21 AM
Quote from: ribbert on October 20, 2016, 07:53:41 AM
Quote from: FJ1100mjk on October 20, 2016, 06:56:59 AM
.....Of course, there are some that do own newer bikes, and some that can be described as lurkers, who don't post for reasons of their own, and their ownership of other bikes is an unknown.
I guess that's because it's an FJ forum. Other bikes/cars/airplanes/boats etc are not really pertinent.
Noel
How true. Unfortunate in a sense too.
Seems like things here have devolved. The biggest draw of late, was the banter on the political post about Clinton or Trump, but that will be old hat sometime after November 8th.
Same things seem to get recycled, over and over. Heated grips, Blue Dots, 17" rims and tire preferences, certain rallies, dirty carbs... Sigh. :hang1:
Whatever became of the FJ fuel injection project? That's pertinent, and of technical interest.
On another forum, that I visit sporadically, someone posted "What Happened to This Forum?" Same could be started here.
Lots of other things do get discussed here but they usually run out of steam fairly quickly because this is a single interest forum, FJ's, other subjects are only ever going to have a limited interest to some of the membership some of the time.
The dynamics of the forum shift constantly too as members fade in and out of prominence or leave, or the ebb and flow of respect shown by members in their communications with other members, and a loss of bonhomie and so many people just waiting for an opportunity to take offense. I don't know why, perhaps it just mimics society in this regard. The seasons also influence content as bikes are parked up at the start of Winter and cabin fever sets in towards the end of it.
One thing's for sure, an interesting motorbike related discussion or a good laugh is never too far off.
I certainly light up when subjects related to, but not specifically about FJ's come up.
IMO
"Same things seem to get recycled, over and over. Heated grips, Blue Dots, 17" rims and tire preferences, certain rallies, dirty carbs... Sigh."
Of course this is true....as new members join they have the same questions the old timers had 15 years ago.
I find this particular thread (hijacked as it is) regarding modifying fork springs very interesting. (popcorn)
Jeff
So the boy decided discretion was the better part of valor, and wants to take the blast on our ride which means the FJ sits this trip out. 850ish miles over 4 days.
Loving the smart fix. My investment potential on my bike is also limited—as is my mechanical experience—so cheap easy mods are absolutely where it's at for me. Love my FJ but I'm not here because I'm a massive fan. I'm here because it's the best bike I could afford and the guys here have forgotten more than I've learnt.
If FJs were perfect, there wouldn't be a forum. We'd be riding them all the time instead of fixing and modding them all the time.
So change of plans. The versys needs a new throttle cable, and I'm not willing to risk it right now so the fudge gets to go on the trip.
Getting back to fork springs that cost money. Has anyone here experienced the comfort of the FJR1300 (for touring two-up)? I have been contemplating upgrading the springs and shocks of either my FJ11 or FJ12 and wondered if I could bring the suspension/ride performance close to that of the FJR and if would be fiscally viable. The FJ12 has Koni (Ikon) progressive springs at the moment. The FJ11 has stock 90 FJ12 front forks. A decent FJR here in Oz can be had for about $5k - $8k (a v good FJ12 is about $3k - $4k).
Touring 2 up is the only issue where the FJR13 shines over our FJ:FJR are big, wide, large, ultra-smooth and comfy. The feeling is like riding an FJ with a trailer. The rider ergonomy is exactly the same on the first models
Our FJ is faster, lighter and better for the solo sport rider (upgrading suspensions, rims & brakes)
In Spain when the FJR appeared in 2003 a comparative was arrange by a popular mag at the Jarama circuit. A completely STD FJ1100, only improved in suspensions, not rims or brakes :shok: , humiliated the 25 years younger FJR, to the Yamaha embarrassment