I had the opportunity to test ride a basically stock 1987 FJ1200 recently. The bike had 47,000 miles on the clock. This is my observation of the OEM front brakes.
I can not verify the brand or specific material make up of the brake pads that were installed.
Also to put things into perspective..... My 1989 FJ1200 has a 100% complete front brake system upgrade. 300MM rotors, R1 Blue Dot calipers, Braided racing dual line hoses, and a Honda RC51 master cylinder.
The 1987 FJ that I rode is in very good condition with the only flaws being a few small cracks in the plastics and a fuel gauge that has had the needle wrap around the wrong way.
I rode for about 10 miles and was absolutely amazed at the lack of front braking power. It truly felt as if there were pieces of wood installed for brake pads. I do not attribute this to anything mechanically wrong with the brakes. I attribute the lack of braking power on the 30 year old technology of, 282mm vented rotors, single pot calipers, OEM rubber brake lines and the OEM master cylinder.
There is a saying.....The best there is, is only the best that you know, applies here. I know there are owners who are dead set at keeping their FJ1100 and first gen FJ1200's all original. This post is for those that have been on the fence about upgrading their front brakes. Replacing/upgrading any one item will result in an improvement. Doing all of the upgrades is a night and day difference. Technology has advanced greatly over 30 years. Here is my take on each component. the easiest improvements first
Brake lines.... Stainless Steel brake lines hold pressure at a better constant.
Brake Pads....EBC HH pads, Modern brake pad material is much better than what is available from the OEM pads.
Master Cylinder.... sourced from FZ1, FJR, Honda VFR or RC51 create higher pressure.
Brake rotors.... Solid slotted/drilled rotors will give an improvement.
Vmax Blue Dot adaptors. Allows the use of Blue Dot calipers while keeping the 282mm rotors and OEM anti-dive forks.
To get the real benefits of modern 21st century braking require replacing the forks at minimum with 1988 or later FJ1200 forks. This also requires the use of the 17" FJ1200 wheel
Blue/Gold/Silver Dot Calipers.... 4 pistons, with progressive braking characteristics (two different sizes of pistons) and direct bolt on to the 1988 and later FJ1200 forks.
298mm/300mm rotors.... Round or wave pattern, slotted or drilled. Larger diameter equals larger surface area.
IMO this is also a huge safety issue. At 40-50-60MPH, the panic stopping distance difference of 5 feet can have a disastrous result.
Fred
Great write up Fred.
I would agree 100% with upgrading all brake components. My 84 FJ1100 has had all the brake and suspension bits done, except the Blue Dots, and is a much better bike for it.
I was watching one of those car shows (like Overhaulin' and pimp my ride things) and head a good quote. "If you are going to make it go fast, you have to make it stop fast too." This holds especially true with bikes.
For anyone undecided as to whether or not do the upgrade. Spend the few hundred dollars. It comes down to how much is your life worth.
Mark
Quote from: Urban_Legend on July 15, 2016, 12:11:03 AM
"If you are going to make it go fast, you have to make it stop fast too."
ITS racer buddy said "Not enough power won't kill you, not enough brakes might... you decide"
Kind of a Clint Eastwood version of the same wisdom...
Frank
I respect the analysis Fred, but I have a different experience. My '84 now has the AD defeated and stock brakes other than SS lines, EBC HH pads and RPM's Braking(?) rotors. They are 1 finger strong and very nice, progressive engagement. The '92 has blue spots and 320mm Brembo rotors (YZF750R front end) with FJR MC. That setup is seriously powerful (kinda matches the throttle), but I don't notice a big disadvantage on the '84...
I think some component upgrades along with AD defeat* will get you a reasonable braking system on 16" wheels... just another option.
Frank
* I know... I advocated for AD working ok initially. The dead zone it created in applying the brakes is what killed it for me. The lever moves the AD piston for a bit, then engages the brakes. This short but variable delay killed any AD value for me.
I had the original brake system on my FJ1100, but with HH sintered pads.
I then upgraded to FZR400RR 4-pot calipers, still with HH pads, braided brake lines and FZ6 brake master.
I now have a better brake feel, but I wouldn't say brake performance is like night and day. I think the biggest factor here is the brake pads and since I used similar pads on both systems, the difference isn't that big.
(and my anti-dive works fine :good2: )
Brakes are so important on a motorcycle. I want the best brakes available. Just a few feet could make the difference between, going home or to the hospital. I am planning on improving the brakes on my 2015.
The factory tires were bias. So why do we change to radial tires? Bias tires are fine 90% plus of the time. So why change? Tires have improved, so have the brakes. Would you want, a thirty year old tire design? Why do you want twenty plus year old brake design? Makes no sense to me. This is just one mans opinion.
Kurt
There is one thing to be aware of with the old 2-piston calipers. If you only install Blue Dot calipers and keep the stock 5/8" master cylinder, you will actually LOSE brake rotor clamping power. The 2-piston calipers have more piston surface area than the combined area of the 4-piston Blue Dots.
That means for a given line pressure, the older calipers will generate more clamping force. I made the swap to Blue Dots, while keeping the stock master cylinder and could immediately tell the new calipers were not as good as the old ones, even with HH pads. I had Ferodo HH pads in the old calipers and they were amazing. I would probably have switched back but I was doing the 17 inch wheel upgrade.
The Blue Dots aren't really bad, they have good power, and I got used to them quickly. I may eventually install the FZ1 master cylinder that I bought for it but I'm not really a big fan of really powerful (and touchy) brakes. My FZ1 front brakes are fine and the 14mm master does give more modulation and control, but that system is not heads and shoulders above the FJ. The brakes on my BMW will throw me over the handlebar. But they have the safety net of incredible ABS behind them.
I have 2 points and an opinion:
1: The stock FJ braking system will work just fine with good components (pads and lines) installed.
2: If you consider upgrading brakes, do it in a logical manner. Don't just throw parts at it.
Opinion: If you're out there running around on 30 year old rubber brake lines, you're a fool.
I have Blue dot slaves and original size master with HH pads for my front brakes. Before the pads bedded in to the Arashi rotors they had really good grab/feel when braking. After about 5k miles of bedding in I noticed less grab, less than stock. But in spite of the change of feel I can still get all my braking with two fingers. I personally like the harder feel at the lever. I feel like I am less likely to grab a hand full of brake during a panic stop and loose the front end. If you practice hard braking then this is not likely your best set up.
I recently changed to two clutch springs and a 14MM master. Having dealt with two springs and the stock master I can see why many like the 14MM master with the 4 pot calipers. Much easier pull at the lever to get the job done. I guess if I ever go 14MM for the front I will need to use only one finger and spend some time practicing to deal with the new lever feel...
Hey Hooli, when you do try the 14mm m/c on your front brakes (with the R-1 mono blocks) let us know what you find.
Personally, I don't consider them touchy. The smaller diameter 14mm piston has to travel a longer stroke to equal the line pressure of the 5/8" (16mm) piston, thus better modulation at threshold.
Yes, you can get in trouble grabbing a handful, but then again you can do the same with the stock brakes.
What I consider touchy is the oem FJ back brake. The DOT 5 fluid helps (softens) as well as the smaller diameter rotor used on my Thunder Ace rear wheel.
Even still, with all my practice, I can still modulate the front better (two fingers) than my size 12 boot on the back brake.
Practice, practice, practice....then practice some more.
I have original road test/comparison test for the 84 FJ in digital format and researched stopping distances from a few of these. Hear are the results: Cycle 60-0 126.5 ft, Cycle Guide 30-0 30 ft & 60-0 121 ft, Cycle World 30-0 33 ft & 60-0 127 ft. Those are pretty competitive numbers even against current generation bikes. I my experience, of the modifications I've made (steel braided lines and new modern material disks/pads), the biggest improvement came after rebuilding the calipers. So my two cents would be that the original brakes, on even the older models, are very good if in proper working order.
Quote from: Pat Conlon on July 15, 2016, 06:42:12 PM
Hey Hooli, when you do try the 14mm m/c on your front brakes (with the R-1 mono blocks) let us know what you find.
Pat,
I have that system on my '02 FZ1. It's nice, good power and modulation, but I wouldn't consider it night and day better than the Blue Dots and stock master on the FJ. It's better, but I would actually prefer the old calipers and the Ferodo pads. But I'm not going back. It's not 1-finger braking, but I don't want that. I would love to have the BMW brakes on the FJ, but that would have to include the ABS and that's not happening. I had a friend ride the FJ a few months ago and he commented on how powerful the front brakes were. I told him that they basically sucked but they were adequate but somewhat wooden feeling. I have 3 bikes that have drastically different front brakes, but it's not that hard to adapt.
I upgraded my '84 with 88 or later 1200 forks mainly because the 1100 forks had too much rust, the anti-dive needed overhauling and needed caliper pistons which were expensive when you need 4 of them. The 1200 forks cost me $70, the 4 pot calipers were given to me. The only non stock item I needed to complete the picture was a pair of early Vmax discs to fit the 16" wheel as they had the extra diameter needed for the fork/caliper set up. Added braided lines and kept stock MC. Braking is excellent.
BTW, as a side note, its ok to make comparisons using 1 finger/2 finger expressions but in real life emergency braking one should be using all fingers progessively. There's no point braking with, say, 2 fingers then finding you need even more pressure only to have a couple of spare fingers jammed between the lever and the grip.
Quote from: krusty on July 16, 2016, 01:46:08 AM
BTW, as a side note, its ok to make comparisons using 1 finger/2 finger expressions but in real life emergency braking one should be using all fingers progessively. There's no point braking with, say, 2 fingers then finding you need even more pressure only to have a couple of spare fingers jammed between the lever and the grip.
Krusty, I don't know how far you go back but what you describe takes me back 45 years to cable operated drum brakes, I can remember doing just that. Hydraulic disc brakes don't behave like that.
Noel
My brakes work great :pardon:
:rofl: I have no doubt about that!!
Quote from: ribbert on July 16, 2016, 08:13:50 AM
Quote from: krusty on July 16, 2016, 01:46:08 AM
BTW, as a side note, its ok to make comparisons using 1 finger/2 finger expressions but in real life emergency braking one should be using all fingers progessively. There's no point braking with, say, 2 fingers then finding you need even more pressure only to have a couple of spare fingers jammed between the lever and the grip.
Krusty, I don't know how far you go back but what you describe takes me back 45 years to cable operated drum brakes, I can remember doing just that. Hydraulic disc brakes don't behave like that.
Noel
Yes I go way back but this was something I learned more recently as a riding instructor and still applies today.
Quote from: krusty on July 16, 2016, 05:35:40 PM
Yes I go way back but this was something I learned more recently as a riding instructor and still applies today.
Interesting to know that they still teach that in rider training programs today. When I first got my license in '85 they were adamant in teaching us to use all four fingers - all the time. Most stock street bikes were still single pots back then, so I can understand why coupled with the tire technology of that era.
Now even the most basic of bikes has braking technology far superior to back then, with much grippier tires. So other than being good practice, is that something they still stress everywhere? :unknown:
Quote from: PaulG on July 16, 2016, 08:10:41 PM
Quote from: krusty on July 16, 2016, 05:35:40 PM
Yes I go way back but this was something I learned more recently as a riding instructor and still applies today.
Interesting to know that they still teach that in rider training programs today. When I first got my license in '85 they were adamant in teaching us to use all four fingers - all the time. Most stock street bikes were still single pots back then, so I can understand why coupled with the tire technology of that era.
Now even the most basic of bikes has braking technology far superior to back then, with much grippier tires. So other than being good practice, is that something they still stress everywhere? :unknown:
The technique was not to use all four fingers at once but to progessively apply pressure starting with the tip of the index finger then progressively bring the others into play around the lever as more pressure is required. We taught it this way so that novices would not be grabbing a handful of brake when only slight pressure is required. In this respect, yes braking may only require a couple of fingers but the others are there if needed.
In the Canada Safety Council (CSC) Gearing Up program we teach 4-fingers for the application of the clutch and front brake. When the levers are not being applied the hands are to be on the grips, not hovering the levers. Keep in mind that the course is designed for
new riders. In the Slow Speed Maneuvers lesson the students are taught to "ride the clutch" while revving the engine above idle and applying a bit of rear brake. This makes for nice smooth control of the motorcycle at slow speeds. If they were to hover the front brake lever during a slow speed turn and accidentally apply the front brake the bike will go down in a hurry. In the Emergency Swerving lesson the students are taught to use push-steering to steer the motorcycle around an obstacle in an emergency situation. If they are in the habit of hovering the front brake and a real emergency (in the real world) happens they will more than likely inadvertently apply the front brake while trying to swerve around the obstacle. It may not be the best combination. Again, this is for new riders. Experienced riders may decide that they have the best reaction time by hovering their fingers over the levers but we teach what we consider to be best practices for new riders. We still teach using all four fingers to apply the front brake and the brakes must be applied smoothly and progressively with maximum squeeze on the front brake just before coming to a complete stop. I'm sure that there are plenty of experienced riders who use various methods for braking - 1 or 2 fingers, trail braking in curves, etc. but for the purpose of our course we need to keep it simple and as fail-safe as possible.
Zwartie
Quote from: krusty on July 16, 2016, 09:18:18 PM
Quote from: PaulG on July 16, 2016, 08:10:41 PM
Quote from: krusty on July 16, 2016, 05:35:40 PM
Yes I go way back but this was something I learned more recently as a riding instructor and still applies today.
Interesting to know that they still teach that in rider training programs today. When I first got my license in '85 they were adamant in teaching us to use all four fingers - all the time. Most stock street bikes were still single pots back then, so I can understand why coupled with the tire technology of that era.
Now even the most basic of bikes has braking technology far superior to back then, with much grippier tires. So other than being good practice, is that something they still stress everywhere? :unknown:
The technique was not to use all four fingers at once but to progessively apply pressure starting with the tip of the index finger then progressively bring the others into play around the lever as more pressure is required. We taught it this way so that novices would not be grabbing a handful of brake when only slight pressure is required. In this respect, yes braking may only require a couple of fingers but the others are there if needed.
That was a good refresher course. And I got it for free! :good2: It's just as I would have remembered it ... :blush:
My brakes have only ever started me twice, the day I installed EBC HH pads and got a lot more brake than I was expecting and the day I installed the blue dots and got a lot less brake than I was expecting.
I had to wait a week for HH pads for the blue dots and and was running standard Toyo pads in them, they were as Fred described, wooden blocks. I got quite a shock because I discovered this when I actually needed them.
Lots of good opinions and experience of brake upgrades from everyone and good to see a softening of the widely held view that the blue dot calipers alone are the silver bullet for brake improvement.
I fitted my upgraded components (m/c, lines, pads and calipers) one at a time and it was interesting to note the impact each had on brake performance and feel.
I have ridden a number of modern bikes recently and as Hooli and Frank noted, the brakes are better but not in another league. The FJ's stablemate is a BMW with current generation brakes, they're better and the harder you use them the more noticeable the difference, but swapping from one to the other I'm not consciously aware of the difference.
I rode this from Harrietville to the summit of Mt Hotham and back recently. Now, these are brakes! but once again not night and day difference from the FJ. (BTW, having had my fun, I was happy to hand it back, unlike the RT)
(https://c2.staticflickr.com/2/1565/26196257022_f98e206771_c.jpg)
I (IMO) think many riders have no idea just how quickly their bike is capable of stopping. I have seen riders scared of their front brakes even with ABS, reluctant to grab a handful even when it's needed.
The Govt's accident investigation unit here say that in all motorbike accidents where the bike has hit an object (car, tree, pole, curb etc) 80% of them had the braking capacity to stop short of impact, some by huge margins. They also noted that many ABS equipped bikes were not braking heavily either.
As Monkey said, practice, practice, practice, it could save your life one day.
Just out of interest today I tried the four fingers on the levers to see if I could manage throttle blips (which I could). The thing that struck me immediately though was how uneasy I felt not having a grip on the bars.
My son, who has never ridden a bike in his life, recently did his 2 day licence course. Listening to him explain it I
Noel
G'day,
I am running a 85' 1100 with stock wheels and braided lines. I can remember riding bikes with drum brakes, and the early years with disc brakes, up to the more modern brake systems. Initially I never intended on upgrading the FJ's brake lines as I preferred the feel of rubber hose with disc brakes. Now before everyone starts throwing emoticons... here me out. :flag_of_truce:
I used to ride an XJ650 RJ sports model, well the rubber lines were flexing too much so I replaced them with new rubber. They were greatly improved and had great feel. Other bikes I rode at the time appeared to me to have "too hard" brakes, they were multi pots with braided lines, and i swear the damn things locked up at any oppurtunity if I grabbed too much brakes. You see riding the older bikes I was used to grabbing a big handful of front brake, or stomping the rear brake, and I still found that they were not locked up, enabling me to feel more in control. Compared to modern brakes, where even a gentle touch will lock up the rear, I almost preferred the older rubber lines.
When I ride with other guys, I notice they never apply brakes during cornering, even at quite gentle angles when it used to be o.k to grab some brake, these days I wonder if the damn things are so touchy that it makes guys nervous of lock up's?
Concerning my own FJ, well I did buy some second hand braided lines awhile ago and installed them, the price was really good and I thought "better stay modern", well I found that the brakes were greatly improved in regards touchiness, but now my rear locks up pretty easily.. I will just have to adjust to it. I do not think I will modify the forks to get the "blue dots", as I am pretty satisfied with how quickly the bike stops, and as an aside,
in how many instances of bikes stopping in a hurry has "instant stopping" played an important feature? In other words, how many bike accidents have been worse due to poor brake design or old brake? Most accidents I have known details about could not have had an altered outcome if the rider had been able to stop quicker, ie: coming off on corners, being bumped from behind, being T boned without warning or general poor handling accidents.
I reckon the few instances where full lock up braking would save your skin, would be stopping in a straight line either coming up to stopped traffic or someone pulling in front of you, or avoiding livestock, and are these types of accidents more common that coming off in corners?
Just some thoughts...
cheers, Gareth
Gareth, I had a tiny air bubble in my rear brake line after switching over to a braided line. I liked the softer feel on the rear as well. Not braking in the corners for me is my goal. Pick an entry speed, follow my line, power out and judge the next corner. I am not racing, no need to pass if the rider in front has a good pace and clean lines.
G'day,
I hear what you are saying about braking while cornering. While hard braking, either front or rear is best avoided mid corner, I have been finding that when I apply the rear gently throughout the early part of the corner, the bike feels "keener" through the corner. Not sure how to describe it.
I always followed the concept of doing all your braking prior to leaning into the corner, then rolling through before powering out, etc. worked great for me. A fellow rider suggested one day applying the rear gently throughout the corner, and I found the cornering was actually better.
While riding straight and around the "burbs", I usually always use the front brake more. I read on a google search that one rider under adjusts his rear pedal so that it requires a great amount of force to lock up the rear. I guess that was his method of managing his reflex to lock up when startled.
Each to their own I guess...
The point of this thread was how much better the brakes could be made on a stock FJ. Better pads and braided lines will help any bike seems to be the consensus. Your master cylinder and calipers need to be matched. Using blue dot calipers with the stock master cylinder, may reduce braking force. Change both or keep them stock. Installing a master cylinder that was designed to be used with the blue dot calipers will make a noticeable improvement. Hope this helps someone.
Kurt
Kurt,
I think the "point" of the thread was offering an observation in the difference in braking power between a modern and original system, and some handy tips on modernising your brakes if one chose to do so. I don't think anyone is suggesting that improving your braking system will not have a positive effect such as increased braking power, however, I think there were opinions also offered regarding methodology of braking, and in many cases, the method used to brake can have an equal if not greater influence on the outcome of an accident as top notch brakes.
If avoiding an accident was as simple as grabbing a handful of modern brakes, then I will commence the upgrade tomorrow. Braking methods on a motorcycle are entirely different to those needed to stop a car. Car drivers can securely stomp their brakes and come to a stop, whereas a rider has to chose when and where to apply the brakes, and how hard to apply them. Poor riding skills often lead to accidents, grabbing brakes, even brilliant brakes, will not change the outcome of some situations.
I have ridden my FJ on gravel/dirt roads at speeds up 50mph, and gone around corners, at lesser speeds of course, and I did not use my brakes with anywhere near the amount of frequency or force that I would use for asphalt riding. Of course if an object jumps in front of me, I know I have no stopping power, and thats when I drop the bike, slide and hope for a merciful stop. I know I could have driven that road with my car that day, and been safer, and possibly stopped in time and made it to work no worries. But thats not the point, and it's not the reason we continue to ride bikes.
Gareth
I have blue dots, braided brake lines and original master cylinder on my 92 and for me its a big difference, way more stopping power than stock
YZF 600 front end with stock rotors, blue dots, braided lines and an FZ1 master. Testing my braking ability the other day I managed to do hoppies. With an FJ. I also managed to lock up the front end. 4 foot skid mark from a lock up on the front. It is about knowing what they are capable of. Knowing what kind of stopping power whatever system you have has. Practice.
I spent a day with my son teaching him the coefficient of friction difference between asphalt, gravel, dirt and grass, by measuring stopping distances. Front brake only, back brake only and both. ( ATV , much safer ). It was a school project. The teacher had no idea the front brake was the one that did most of the braking. Many of the things most of us know escape millions.
Good for you Johnnie! What a great way to learn (and teach)
Your son is lucky to have a dad like you :good:
Quote from: giantkiller on July 16, 2016, 08:32:05 AM
My brakes work great :pardon:
Hali !
good image, good engine....
I'm interested in the whole entire process of conversion.
Front - rear.
What engine?
What year ?
.... in detail.....
gyorifelo@gmail. com
Quote from: vengi on July 30, 2016, 11:30:26 AM
Quote from: giantkiller on July 16, 2016, 08:32:05 AM
My brakes work great :pardon:
Hali !
good image, good engine....
I'm interested in the whole entire process of conversion.
Front - rear.
What engine?
What year ?
.... in detail.....
gyorifelo@gmail. com
That's my 89 commuter, touring 2up, bike. Mostly stock... Complete 2008 gsxr1000 front end. 92 gsxr 600 rear wheel and brake. Engine is stock. Except for uni pods from RPM. Supertrap canisters, with homemade down turn ends. And ceramic coated headers and collector (to help keep the chin scoop cooler).
The 86 has the same front end and rear wheel and brake. Has Honda f4i rear shock. Engine is 1350, I had Hank Scott build. He dynod it. 168hp/114ft.lb. (Think If I was going to do it again I would have Randy build it) Cut the side panels. No passenger pegs. A few other things to clean it up. I figure weighing the components. It should be at least 55 lbs lighter than stock. It's kinda fun