Dragging Parts Video aka Proper Suspension Set Up
Hello Gentlemen,
As usual there are different opinions as to suspension adjustments. Some even post a picture of undercarriage bolts & such, and while quaint, doesn't actually explain the situation. So the following video will hopefully explain what is actually happening with a properly adjusted suspension.
The beginning of the video shows the actual tire wear on a set of Pilot Road 4's. The clip viewed is following a spirited ride on Highway 36 (far northern California) on the way home from this year's West Coast Rally. Several late model sport motorcycles were encountered yet the FJ performed very well. While not considered a true sport tire (such as the Pilot Power 3's) they do perform exceptionally well in wet conditions; the main limitation of these types of tires is that speeds cannot be reduced by scuffing the sides of the tires through the turns, thus more braking is required also. While the rear tire is out to the edge, there is a small area on the front that remains. It is the best I could do.
Also included in the video are the measurements of the height of the rear wheel, which is about 1.25" with a new tire (just about stock height); the position of the gear shift and brake levers which remain clear of the ground; and the RPM exhaust which tucks in nicely within the chin fairing and the muffler is close to the swing arm & angled properly, thus has not been subjected to the road rash of other exhausts.
Although some occasionally touch a foot peg, the consistent ground clearance problems are not only unnecessary with the modern suspension components readily available for the FJ, but indicate a lack of a basic understanding of suspension set up. This ignorance is sometimes compounded by claims which while seemingly innocuous, are often misleading and specious at best.
As far as the inanity of discolored brake rotors, I think quite a few are; however the problem I encountered was rotor warping under extreme use, which has been solved by the gentleman from Oakdale. Although I have had only one front rotor warp, the rear rotor was changed numerous times because of warping; that is until the Braking brand rotor became available from RPM.
As an aside, I have included my motorcycle lift – I bought it used at a garage sale & it allows working on the motorcycle to be a pleasure. This model came with its' own scissors jack & the wood spacer; the jack stand is an added safety measure in case the hydraulics on the scissors jack fail. Although I bought it used for $2,200 – it works just as Mr. Barnum said it would and as it is often said; condescension may be disdainful (as found in the margins of various posts) yet irreverence knows no bounds....
The roads in the video are at times quite rough, and to clearly illustrate the movement of the rear suspension I applied silver tape to the side of the swing arm. While I never actually was able to drag the undercarriage, I did manage to inadvertently touch down the camera mount – which necessitated following the installation instructions and raising the mounting points.... For a view of the front suspension hard at work I would refer to the video "Short Ride in the Colorado Rockies".
So, on to the video itself: as illustrated down in the Tellico Plains area by one of the smoothest, fastest and most accomplished riders who ever attended a FJ Rally and who is having a bit of fun, this segment is dedicated to those who "hang off" or think they do; please be advised that this style of hanging off is actually a detriment to riding fast and only decreases ground clearance.
There are also short segments interspersed of a rough freeway - the suspension settings are unchanged from the back country roads yet the suspension adapts to all scenarios readily; heading east to last years Central Rally with the evening sun going down in in the west during the bewitching hours; and a segment from the following morning with the warming morning sunshine.
But if you really like to drag the pegs, grind the brake lever and even the gear shift lever (!) have at it. As to the muffler hanging out & exhaust regularly contacting the pavement? Well that's been addressed above – much like the $2,200 motorcycle lift, the need for automatic chain oilers and semi-automatic face shield cleaners, ultimately there shall be no reason to properly set up the suspension – just continue the search for disapproval in vain narcissism – ah yes, hubris knows no bounds....
Just having a bit of fun so stay in good humor gentlemen [and you other fellows as well] – life's too short to ride around grinding up good equipment! So raise the volume as this is some serious stuff...!!!
Midget.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cKxd6dE8U8I&feature=youtu.be (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cKxd6dE8U8I&feature=youtu.be)
Mike
Thanks for the great video and suspension comments to which I agree. Also liked the music( likely because I am of the older Gen.) Dave
Great video Mike. Steady camera and great mounting points. As usual, makes me want to go and ride.
Noel
As usual Mike, A great video for sure. Love it. :good2: :good2:
George
Nice angles and good music.
The GPS speedo was a good touch.
Darn lucky you don't have roos mate. That beautiful evening ride would give me the heeby-geebies here. Do you have deer in that part of the US?
nice footwork Mike , sure got yur toes outta da way.
Quote from: Mike Ramos on June 17, 2016, 08:18:31 AM
Just having a bit of fun...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cKxd6dE8U8I&feature=youtu.be (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cKxd6dE8U8I&feature=youtu.be)
So Diane hears the Globetrotters music playing in the office and walks in to see me watching a finger pointing at chicken strips (she knows what they are)... I spin some BS about how the Warriors are calling out the Cavs in motorcycle-land, then too quickly tell the truth. It was fun here too.
She says hi Mike.
Frank
These engine bars are very handy for mounting things aren't they. Good video Mike with a great view of your fancy footwork, looks like you need a longer side stand finder though. :biggrin:
Interesting to see the rear suspension still rising after you get off the bike, must be those trick valves in action.
Quote from: Mike Ramos on June 17, 2016, 08:18:31 AM
....semi-automatic face shield cleaners....
Midget.
Mike, what is the above?
Noel
Quote from: Bones on June 17, 2016, 11:51:35 PM
These engine bars are very handy for mounting things aren't they. Good video Mike with a great view of your fancy footwork, looks like you need a longer side stand finder though. :biggrin:
Interesting to see the rear suspension still rising after you get off the bike, must be those trick valves in action.
Yep, the suspension unloads without a rebound effect - I was in a hurry getting the side stand down as I had a message to deliver to another rider....!
Quote from: Troyskie on June 17, 2016, 08:31:18 PM
Nice angles and good music.
The GPS speedo was a good touch.
Darn lucky you don't have roos mate. That beautiful evening ride would give me the heeby-geebies here. Do you have deer in that part of the US?
Yes, where I live and its' enviroins a lot of deer & feral pigs too - in hopes of not jinxing myself: the deer I hit (actually clipped) on the FJ was on an 8 lane freeway in the San Francisco Bay Area in the midst of a mid-night hours run.
The evening video clip pictured was in the high desert area east of Yosemeite Park - having left far northern California I made a loop by first heading south & stopped by the RPM shop for a set of tires in the afternoon before heading north/east on my way to last years Central Rally - the further east and north one travels there are also elk and gazelle & other miscellaneous animals- good lighting is essential - good luck as well... as I say, I trust mentioning it does not portend problems....!
Ride safe.
Quote from: ribbert on June 18, 2016, 10:31:27 AM
Quote from: Mike Ramos on June 17, 2016, 08:18:31 AM
....semi-automatic face shield cleaners....
Midget.
Mike, what is the above?
Noel
From a previous video - the one with the cows in the road - do not recall the title at the moment.
Just having fun...
Quote from: Mike Ramos on June 17, 2016, 08:18:31 AM
Dragging Parts Video aka Proper Suspension Set Up
.....So the following video will hopefully explain what is actually happening with a properly adjusted suspension.........but indicate a lack of a basic understanding of suspension set up. This ignorance is sometimes compounded by claims..........
Midget.
Mike, that's just it, it shows what's happening, but not why. You have shown us many videos of your wheel going up and down while expounding the virtues of RPM suspension and the gentleman from that establishment. Showing what is does is great but how about telling us how to do it, for the those ignorant ones among us, the poor soul you describe in your post (who can now add personality disorder to his list of woes) and those like myself that lack an understanding of suspension set up. I don't consider I have a clearance problem but certainly if I lean it over far enough, something has to scrape.
What have you done to your suspension to overcome this?
I'm sure it would be appreciated and benefit many, myself included.
Noel
Quote from: ribbert on June 19, 2016, 09:13:18 AM
Quote from: Mike Ramos on June 17, 2016, 08:18:31 AM
Dragging Parts Video aka Proper Suspension Set Up
.....So the following video will hopefully explain what is actually happening with a properly adjusted suspension.........but indicate a lack of a basic understanding of suspension set up. This ignorance is sometimes compounded by claims..........
Midget.
Mike, that's just it, it shows what's happening, but not why. You have shown us many videos of your wheel going up and down while expounding the virtues of RPM suspension and the gentleman from that establishment. Showing what is does is great but how about telling us how to do it, for the those ignorant ones among us, the poor soul you describe in your post (who can now add personality disorder to his list of woes) and those like myself that lack an understanding of suspension set up. I don't consider I have a clearance problem but certainly if I lean it over far enough, something has to scrape.
What have you done to your suspension to overcome this?
I'm sure it would be appreciated and benefit many, myself included.
Noel
Howdy Noel,
No, I do not have any recommendation as I do not claim to understand the enginering involved.
What I can tell you is to not be hesitant to try different suspension settings (adjustments). I believe this to be the most important aspect of, and the surest avenue to follow, so as to achieve the positive results which, based on your comments (both recent and previous posts as well), apparently have eluded you.
I will say that based on my experience of over many tens of thousands of miles and several years, the explanation provided by RPM is correct & valid: as noted by Bones, it is the
internal valving of the rear shock & fork valves that allows for softer springs to be used which provide for a comfortable over the road ride while also allowing for spirited back country road riding without the need for suspension adjustment over varying road surfaces and road conditions. This is the extent of my understanding as to why the suspension works as well as it does.
As far as leaning over so far as to drag clutch & brake levers and such - it is not perceived as a badge of honor as you seem to imply. As shown in the most recent video I posted, I am at the limits of the tires and other than occasionally touching a foot peg, I drag nothing. Also as shown in the video, a rider can certainly "hang off" yet if done as illustrated, it does not enhance cornering ability, it only limits the cornering speeds but will make dragging the undercarraige not only possible but quite easy to do.
Okay, one piece of advice (hope this is not the start of another oil thread!) I understand from your post you are running PR 4's which are what I have installed and used extensively and are excellent tires - both for all around performance and especially above reproach in wet weather: I would suggest beginning with inflating front & rear tires with 42 psi and then begin your suspension settings.
Alright, good luck & ride safe. :yes:
Quote from: Mike Ramos on June 26, 2016, 01:15:35 AM
Howdy Noel,
No, I do not have any recommendation as I do not claim to understand the enginering involved.
What I can tell you is to not be hesitant to try different suspension settings (adjustments). I believe this to be the most important aspect of, and the surest avenue to follow, so as to achieve the positive results which, based on your comments (both recent and previous posts as well), apparently have eluded you.
I will say that based on my experience of over many tens of thousands of miles and several years, the explanation provided by RPM is correct & valid: as noted by Bones, it is the internal valving of the rear shock & fork valves that allows for softer springs to be used which provide for a comfortable over the road ride while also allowing for spirited back country road riding without the need for suspension adjustment over varying road surfaces and road conditions. This is the extent of my understanding as to why the suspension works as well as it does.
As far as leaning over so far as to drag clutch & brake levers and such - it is not perceived as a badge of honor as you seem to imply. As shown in the most recent video I posted, I am at the limits of the tires and other than occasionally touching a foot peg, I drag nothing. Also as shown in the video, a rider can certainly "hang off" yet if done as illustrated, it does not enhance cornering ability, it only limits the cornering speeds but will make dragging the undercarraige not only possible but quite easy to do.
Okay, one piece of advice (hope this is not the start of another oil thread!) I understand from your post you are running PR 4's which are what I have installed and used extensively and are excellent tires - both for all around performance and especially above reproach in wet weather: I would suggest beginning with inflating front & rear tires with 42 psi and then begin your suspension settings.
Alright, good luck & ride safe. :yes:
Thanks for your feedback Mike.
I have availed myself of all the information regarding suspension set up and fiddled with settings until I got tired of it, not that there's much to adjust.
Yes, I understand all the theory of the FJ specific suspension and find within a particular frequency range it is excellent, something akin to the roads in your videos but the only roads we have like that here are freeways.
I do not see scraping levers as a "badge of honour" nor is it the goal when cornering but it is inevitable if leaned over the bike will scrape something, although now it is higher than it used to be.
On original suspension the bike would squat through corners and as a consequence the contact points on the bike were quite low down. With new suspension F&R and raised rear end the bike no longer squats into the corner, leans over further and the contact points are now higher (side of belly pan, levers etc)
It is not my intention to scrape anything but for many reasons, blind double apex corners, a whisker too fast through a bend, a bump, an oncoming vehicle going wide, altering my line mid corner to avoid a hazard or pot holes, poor judgement or just feeling in the zone, there are many reasons one ends up cornering a little harder than planned.
I don't hang off the bike but I do move my upper body forward and into the corner a little to balance the bike so your observations on this style are academic to me but none the less interesting and contrary to my long held views.
To my mind, all things being equal (ie speed and corner radius) the more weight you move inside the centre line of the bike, the less you need to lean it. If you hung as far as possible off the inside of a bike you could take a very slow corner with the bike vertical. Technically, that should convert some of the load to lateral force, taking downward load off the suspension increasing the bike height through a corner.
Why do moto GP riders hang off their bikes?
I'll give anything a go if there is a chance it has merit. Contrary to what I believe to be the case but based on the opinions of many here (and so I could speak from experience), I did try my tyres in the low mid 40's.
No risk of an oil thread here, I think that's run its course as a contentious subject.
Noel
Quote from: ribbert on June 26, 2016, 09:22:49 AM
Why do moto GP riders hang off their bikes?
Noel, was your question rhetorical?
Quote from: Pat Conlon on June 26, 2016, 02:07:59 PM
Quote from: ribbert on June 26, 2016, 09:22:49 AM
Why do moto GP riders hang off their bikes?
Noel, was your question rhetorical?
Not really, Mike has made this same statement about "hanging off" in his last two posts:
......
it does not enhance cornering ability, it only limits the cornering speeds but will make dragging the undercarraige not only possible but quite easy to do. It's an interesting subject and I assume he is wanting someone to engage him on that point, so I did.
Noel
Ok.
My novice opinion is "hanging off" is unnecessary on the street. Just Showboating.
As To your question Why? As understand it....the GP riders do it to keep the rear tire's contact patch as large as possible so they can get on the gas harder and earlier for their corner exit.
However, with the Newer race tires and fine tuned traction control software, this is becoming less practiced....except in the rain.
Mike Ramos is a smooth, fast rider....for sure.
Quote from: ribbert on June 26, 2016, 07:04:32 PM
Quote from: Pat Conlon on June 26, 2016, 02:07:59 PM
Quote from: ribbert on June 26, 2016, 09:22:49 AM
Why do moto GP riders hang off their bikes?
Noel, was your question rhetorical?
Not really, Mike has made this same statement about "hanging off" in his last two posts:
...... it does not enhance cornering ability, it only limits the cornering speeds but will make dragging the undercarriage not only possible but quite easy to do.
It's an interesting subject and I assume he is wanting someone to engage him on that point, so I did.
Noel
Noel , The " Hanging off " Mike is referring to is from the video he posted at the start of this thread .... stating it is the wrong way to hang off and has no advantage other than dragging parts and fully scuffing your tires to look like a hero.
Watch the video again and you will see the rider in question with a unique hang off style.
Noel.... you wrote:
" If you hung as far as possible off the inside of a bike you could take a very slow corner with the bike vertical."
I might be wrong - frequently am - but I doubt this is right.
The reason the bike goes around the corner is because you lean it in the direction you want to go. If it stays upright, it will go in a straight line; surely?
I you turn the front wheel to the left and maintain the bike vertical, it will naturally fall to the right..... well mine does anyway.
Cheers
Harvy
Quote from: Harvy on June 26, 2016, 08:23:54 PM
take a very slow corner with the bike vertical...
The missing detail is the front wheel will be turned into the corner... Noel's right.
Frank
Quote from: Harvy on June 26, 2016, 08:23:54 PM
Noel.... you wrote:
" If you hung as far as possible off the inside of a bike you could take a very slow corner with the bike vertical."
I might be wrong - frequently am - but I doubt this is right.
The reason the bike goes around the corner is because you lean it in the direction you want to go. If it stays upright, it will go in a straight line; surely?
I you turn the front wheel to the left and maintain the bike vertical, it will naturally fall to the right..... well mine does anyway.
Cheers
Harvy
mmmm...I guess the best example (though exaggerated) would be my sidecar. The bike can stay upright with that chair hanging off it, if I do it slow. ...a little faster and it`s leaning a bit to the offside when there`s no weight on the sidecar wheel, but she don`t fall over. (though it`s been close a coupla times!)
So I guess if your arse is as big as my sidecar then it won`t fall over, which of course explains the difference between Hervey`s Handling and Noels! :drinks:
Quote from: The General on June 27, 2016, 02:05:33 AM
.... which of course explains the difference between Hervey`s Handling and Noels! :drinks:
Thank goodness you didn't forget the "and"
Noel
Quote from: Mark Olson on June 26, 2016, 07:50:55 PM
Noel , The " Hanging off " Mike is referring to is from the video he posted at the start of this thread .... stating it is the wrong way to hang off and has no advantage other than dragging parts and fully scuffing your tires to look like a hero.
Watch the video again and you will see the rider in question with a unique hang off style.
I haven't re watched the video but I accept that's the case in this instance but his previous reference was a generalization.
Noel
Quote from: Pat Conlon on June 26, 2016, 07:49:12 PM
My novice opinion is "hanging off" is unnecessary on the street.
I agree, as is trail braking.
Noel
Quote from: ribbert on June 26, 2016, 07:04:32 PM
Quote from: Pat Conlon on June 26, 2016, 02:07:59 PM
Why do moto GP riders hang off their bikes?
Noel, was your question rhetorical?
Ok so things I've seen and heard regarding this topic (from someone who's never dragged a knee... :pardon:)
Some of you are probably already familiar with this stuff so bear with me. If I'm full-o-shit please be kind... :flag_of_truce:
Primarily Law of Inertia - for street riding not an issue - for the track (esp GP) the faster you go the more the bike wants to keep going in a straight line. At high speeds countersteering is near impossible due to the force required to overcome the inertia of the bike. It may be done, but try doing it for a 45min race - let alone a 24hr endurance. By hanging off the bike you are also using the gyroscopic effect of the wheels to steer it. An example would be to take a bicycle wheel on an axle in your hands held in front of you. Have someone spin it as fast as they can, then tilt the wheel L/R and you will feel this effect. You probably did this when you were kids (I did).
Fighter pilots in the single engine propeller era learned this quickly from WW1 until the jet age after WW2. Using the gyroscopic effect of the engine/propeller they could turn harder in the direction of the propeller spin (usually left?). This was especially true for the radial engined planes
When Kenny Roberts first started riding the new YZR500 - even before he went to Europe - he complained it wouldn't steer. He would have to scrape his knees on the ground for it to turn which no-one had done before. His chief engineer told him "then scrape your knees" - and the rest is history. In the rain they hang off even more, but the bike is actually leaning less to keep maximum contact patch. You will also see them do this sometimes when their tires start to go off in the dry. They try to stay off the edge as much as possible to get the bike upright as soon as possible on the middle of the tire for maximim grip wet or dry. It was just a couple of races ago when I remember somebody saying (I'm paraphrasing), "constantly riding on the tires edge is an exercise in diminishing returns."
Just remember on GP bikes their contact patch is about the size of a credit card for each tire on super sticky tires that won't even last 100 miles. For most of us mere mortals that contact patch is even smaller due to our street tires. If you are capable of dragging your knees either by talent or set-up then have fun. Just remember that exercise of diminishing returns.
Enough blabbing for now. :bye:
Quote from: ribbert on June 27, 2016, 08:56:38 AM
Quote from: The General on June 27, 2016, 02:05:33 AM
.... which of course explains the difference between Hervey`s Handling and Noels! :drinks:
Thank goodness you didn't forget the "and"
Noel
I second that Noel.
Harvy
Quote from: ribbert on June 27, 2016, 09:40:20 AM
I agree, as is trail braking.
Noel
I guess that really depends on how hard you ride it into the corner...
I know I do it quite a bit. :dance:
Randy -
RPM (http://www.rpmracingca.com/)
Quote from: racerrad8 on June 27, 2016, 05:47:27 PM
Quote from: ribbert on June 27, 2016, 09:40:20 AM
I agree, as is trail braking.
Noel
I guess that really depends on how hard you ride it into the corner...
Randy
.....as opposed to how fast you want get through it.
Noel
Quote from: ribbert on June 28, 2016, 07:50:55 AM
Quote from: racerrad8 on June 27, 2016, 05:47:27 PM
Quote from: ribbert on June 27, 2016, 09:40:20 AM
I agree, as is trail braking.
Noel
I guess that really depends on how hard you ride it into the corner...
Randy - RPM (http://www.rpmracingca.com/)
.....as opposed to how fast you want get through it.
Noel
Don't worry, I get through corners plenty fast and sometimes the front wheel even leaves the ground on exit. Some more than others, right Frank?
That is why trail braking works; the front is compressed and the rear end is real light. But you still have the skill and ability to use the rear brake to help slow & turn the bike into the corner. Thus faster corner speeds :good:
Randy -
RPM (http://www.rpmracingca.com/)
What about head dragging?
https://www.google.com.au/url?sa=i&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=images&cd=&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwiV7_7F58rNAhVJ1oMKHa-NDM8QjRwIBw&url=http%3A%2F%2Fmakeagif.com%2FOLDCK5&bvm=bv.125596728,d.eWE&psig=AFQjCNGfQVODZBRckfCVFTiUC9_ZvOvtYg&ust=1467206082859420 (https://www.google.com.au/url?sa=i&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=images&cd=&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwiV7_7F58rNAhVJ1oMKHa-NDM8QjRwIBw&url=http%3A%2F%2Fmakeagif.com%2FOLDCK5&bvm=bv.125596728,d.eWE&psig=AFQjCNGfQVODZBRckfCVFTiUC9_ZvOvtYg&ust=1467206082859420)
Noel
Quote from: racerrad8 on June 28, 2016, 08:12:28 AM
Quote from: ribbert on June 28, 2016, 07:50:55 AM
Quote from: racerrad8 on June 27, 2016, 05:47:27 PM
Quote from: ribbert on June 27, 2016, 09:40:20 AM
I agree, as is trail braking.
Noel
I guess that really depends on how hard you ride it into the corner...
Randy - RPM (http://www.rpmracingca.com/)
.....as opposed to how fast you want get through it.
Noel
Don't worry, I get through corners plenty fast and sometimes the front wheel even leaves the ground on exit. Some more than others, right Frank?
That is why trail braking works; the front is compressed and the rear end is real light. But you still have the skill and ability to use the rear brake to help slow & turn the bike into the corner. Thus faster corner speeds :good:
Randy - RPM (http://www.rpmracingca.com/)
For the sake of credibility I will leave my own opinion out of it, although I have spent much time learning the technique and still use under certain circumstances.
Keith Code said this:
https://www.google.com.au/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwi8zoCx6crNAhUCRCYKHSJMA78QFggbMAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.motomom.ca%2Fkeith-code-on-trail-braking-exclusive-interview%2F&usg=AFQjCNGKtGnLPrkoU6O_0u75EQSQVSm6bA&sig2=5ZmsNm9WpzQ7iRW87Bnovg (https://www.google.com.au/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwi8zoCx6crNAhUCRCYKHSJMA78QFggbMAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.motomom.ca%2Fkeith-code-on-trail-braking-exclusive-interview%2F&usg=AFQjCNGKtGnLPrkoU6O_0u75EQSQVSm6bA&sig2=5ZmsNm9WpzQ7iRW87Bnovg)
It's an interesting read and sees Keith diplomatically avoiding a conclusive backing of either camp and contains enough information that depending on your bias, both sides will claim it as an endorsement of their preference.
My take on it is that it's no longer the "silver bullet" is was first thought to be in racing, most top tier riders do not use it as a matter of course (only under certain circumstances) and it delivers no benefit for street riding.
My own experience is that it's not the fastest way around a corner - that's start to finish, not just entry.
Lifting the front wheel off the rebound of the forks out of a corner is no indication of speed
through the corner.
Don't forget, the guys that use trail braking on the track are taking the same corners hundreds of times over and have the opportunity to fine tune them to the enth degree, a luxury you don't have on the road.
Other than Kieth suggesting this is not a technique for the road, there is no right or wrong answer.
This is a technique developed with the intention of shaving 1000's of a second of lap times on a racetrack and serves no purpose on the road.
It is an interesting subject and I have read much reference material on it not that long ago and I spent a long time playing with it. There is no right or wrong outcome, but for me it's not the quickest way around a corner, certainly it's the most spectacular and has high degree of satisfaction though.
Noel
Quote from: ribbert on June 28, 2016, 09:46:19 AM
My own experience is that it's not the fastest way around a corner - that's start to finish, not just entry.
Lifting the front wheel off the rebound of the forks out of a corner is no indication of speed through the corner.
Noel
Noel,
I don't think it would matter what I said about the subject, I believe you would disagree with my point of view.
With that said, the lifting of the front end it not based on the rebound of the forks. It is based on the proper and efficienct of the RPM suspension components allowing full traction to the rear tire. The acceleration and horsepower is lifting the wheel. Frank experiences the same thing with his FJ with the Ohlin shock and 1350 engine. There is no slamming of the throttle to lift the wheel. If you ever watch the UK road racers, or even most track racers, you will see them having front wheel lift on acceleration. They to are able to use all of the power to drive the bike forward, but it likes to rotate up; ewasier to lift the weight of the bike than push the mass forward.
I remember the rebound wheelies in my 65' VW bug back in high school. We used to take the front shocks off, bounce back & forth on the throttle and my ol' bug used to drag the header out back for a spark show at night. That is not what is happening on my FJ...
So, you do it your way and I'll do it mine. As a racer I know how to get the most out of everything I drive and ride. I use of all of the components on a vehicle to obtain the fastest way through any corner.
But hey that is my opinion and I don't write an internet column telling people what is right & wrong for them...I'll leave that to Keith.
I only had to read the first sentence to know which position you have taken;
"There is a lot of misunderstanding about the technique of trail braking; specifically people seem to be either for using trail braking, or against it". I did not read any further...
I give up :flag_of_truce:
Randy -
RPM (http://www.rpmracingca.com/)
Quote from: PaulG on June 27, 2016, 10:13:45 AM
At high speeds countersteering is near impossible due to the force required to overcome the inertia of the bike...
This is the strangest comment I think I've ever seen, concerning turning a bike. In my experience, it is astonishingly easy to countersteer at high speeds... the mere suggestion of a push on the left bar will send the bike into a gracefully smooth arc to the left. But then, the fastest I've gone on a bike is 140mph. Perhaps countersteering becomes more difficult above that speed.
Quote from: PaulG on June 27, 2016, 10:13:45 AM
Fighter pilots in the single engine propeller era learned this quickly from WW1 until the jet age after WW2. Using the gyroscopic effect of the engine/propeller they could turn harder in the direction of the propeller spin (usually left?).
Hmmm... not quite. Propeller driven (and indeed some jets) will
roll faster in the direction opposite to the rotation of the propeller. This is merely due to the torque of the engine, much like an old BMW will rock left and right as the throttle is twisted. But the airplane, once established at a given angle of bank... say 60 degrees... will not
turn "harder." The rate of turn will be the same left or right.
Bill
Airframe & Powerplant Mechanic with Inspection Authorization
Commercial Pilot, Single & Multi-engine Land, with Instrument rating
Certified Flight Instructor, Instrument (inactive)
:hi:
Now this is how you lean a bike...
Quote from: CutterBill on June 28, 2016, 10:35:09 PM
Now this is how you lean a bike...
That's the limit alright... and people wonder why the supermoto boys put their leg out front like that. Where else would it go?
Frank
Quote from: racerrad8 on June 28, 2016, 08:12:28 AM
Quote from: ribbert on June 28, 2016, 07:50:55 AM
Quote from: racerrad8 on June 27, 2016, 05:47:27 PM
Quote from: ribbert on June 27, 2016, 09:40:20 AM
I agree, as is trail braking.
Noel
I guess that really depends on how hard you ride it into the corner...
Randy - RPM (http://www.rpmracingca.com/)
.....as opposed to how fast you want get through it.
Noel
Don't worry, I get through corners plenty fast and sometimes the front wheel even leaves the ground on exit. Some more than others, right Frank?
That is why trail braking works; the front is compressed and the rear end is real light. But you still have the skill and ability to use the rear brake to help slow & turn the bike into the corner. Thus faster corner speeds :good:
Randy - RPM (http://www.rpmracingca.com/)
So I'm no expert, but isn't trail braking a very different proposition than backing-in (what I think Noel's talking about)? I use trail braking most of the time. In a late apex corner, I let go of the front brake just about at the turn-in. I keep the rear brake working until I'm at what I think is the correct entry speed. This is to stay away from the traction limits of the front tire... really bad to have a front slip on turn-in. The differential between front and rear brake release is a couple seconds max.
Backing-in is using the above technique, but modulating between faster rotation on turn-in (due to the rear skidding a bit) and a high side off (skidding a little too much). This is hyper dangerous even for the best riders and is really only done when your tires are hot and greasy, again to limit the traction demands you're putting on the front tire. As Noel said, racers get plenty of practice for each corner and can master the technique to get a couple thousandths off each corner. This has no place on the street, although if you enter a corner way too hot it may be your best choice.
Frank
Quote from: racerrad8 on June 28, 2016, 10:28:46 AM
........I only had to read the first sentence to know which position you have taken; "There is a lot of misunderstanding about the technique of trail braking; specifically people seem to be either for using trail braking, or against it". I did not read any further...
Randy - RPM (http://www.rpmracingca.com/)
You should have, that was not Keith Code, it was the interviewer putting the question to him. He has been teaching trail braking for decades, continues to do so and supports it!!!!!
It was not an advice column.
I chose this article because it was neither in favour of nor against it and because it presented a
balanced view from both sides and Code is a respected and acknowledged author on racing techniques. It was a conciliatory offering that had you taken the time read it supports trail braking and gives a good overview that (as I said) should satisfy both camps - there's a time and a place and just where that applies is a matter of personal preference, no right or wrong.
I think I mentioned 3 times, there is no right or wrong, how much clearer can I be?
Quote from: racerrad8 on June 28, 2016, 10:28:46 AM
....I don't write an internet column telling people what is right & wrong for them...
Randy - RPM (http://www.rpmracingca.com/)
Perhaps you should.....
Quote from: racerrad8 on June 28, 2016, 10:28:46 AM
As a racer I know how to get the most out of everything I drive and ride.
Randy - RPM (http://www.rpmracingca.com/)
Quote from: racerrad8 on June 28, 2016, 10:28:46 AM
I don't think it would matter what I said about the subject, I believe you would disagree with my point of view.
Finally, the root of the problem. You tried second guessing me, so convinced you knew what I was going to say you didn't even bother to read the post. That speaks volumes. Had you read it, you would have been wrong.
Perhaps you could take a leaf out of Franks book. Frank doesn't even like me, he described as "full of shit most of the time" and I think I've had PM's from him to the same effect, but he does have the ability to separate the message from the messenger and acknowledge good information when he reads it, putting aside who posted it, as he has done on a number of occasions. It's hard to warm to a bloke that says that about you but well done anyway Frank, keep it up :biggrin:
Randy, it's probably several years since I have disagreed with anything you've said on the forum, not through lack of opportunity, but I make a point of not doing so. Probably time you started reading my posts with a little less bias and just take them at face value, which is the spirit in which they are written.
BTW, I stated my view
first, so it was not I disagreeing with you.
Why was my opinion more inflammatory than Pats?........
Quote from: ribbert on June 27, 2016, 09:40:20 AM
Quote from: Pat Conlon on June 26, 2016, 07:49:12 PM
My novice opinion is "hanging off" is unnecessary on the street.
I agree, as is trail braking.
Noel
It wasn't.
Rant:
Randy, why couldn't you simply agree to disagree rather than make it personal by suggesting it's just me being gratuitously contrary and dismiss my contribution as not even worth reading, it serves no purpose, creates ill will and reinforces that view in peoples minds. As the forum guru you need to be above that sort of pettiness. We already have one member who has that well and truly covered.
Discrediting the messenger as a tactic happens all too often here when the status quo is challenged. Mike Ramos for example had this to say just last week about people who do not conform to forum lore - "just continue the search for disapproval in vain narcissism – ah yes, hubris knows no bounds...." It's just possible Mike that there is knowledge beyond the forum and being a dissenting voice is not a sign of personality disorder.
Noel
Quote from: CutterBill on June 28, 2016, 10:29:03 PM
Quote from: PaulG on June 27, 2016, 10:13:45 AM
At high speeds countersteering is near impossible due to the force required to overcome the inertia of the bike...
This is the strangest comment I think I've ever seen, concerning turning a bike....
As I said:
Quote from: PaulG on June 27, 2016, 10:13:45 AM
... It may be done, but try doing it for a 45min race - let alone a 24hr endurance.
... plus at lean angles consistently over 60 deg.
Quote from: CutterBill on June 28, 2016, 10:29:03 PM
... Propeller driven (and indeed some jets) will roll faster in the direction opposite to the rotation of the propeller. This is merely due to the torque of the engine, much like an old BMW will rock left and right as the throttle is twisted. But the airplane, once established at a given angle of bank... say 60 degrees... will not turn "harder." The rate of turn will be the same left or right.
Yes I stand corrected. I believe what I meant to say was, it will roll faster thus initiating a turn quicker. Yeah that's it. :flag_of_truce:
BTW - if anyone has an old Beemer and it's noticeably rocking back and forth, it may be in dire need of a tune up. Coming from an ex-old Beemer owner.
Paul
Toxic Shit Shovelling Auto Parts Worker
and Certified All Round Ne'er-Do-Well :mocking:
:bye:
Quote from: PaulG on June 30, 2016, 10:34:24 AM
Paul
Toxic Shit Shovelling Auto Parts Worker
and Certified All Round Ne'er-Do-Well :mocking:
:bye:
I like that, very funny.
Noel
Quote from: ribbert on June 30, 2016, 08:06:46 AM
Frank doesn't even like me, he described as "full of shit most of the time" and I think I've had PM's from him to the same effect
Would you unblock me from sending you a PM please?
Frank
Quote from: ribbert on June 30, 2016, 08:06:46 AM
Rant:
Randy, why couldn't you simply agree to disagree rather than make it personal by suggesting it's just me being gratuitously contrary and dismiss my contribution as not even worth reading, it serves no purpose, creates ill will and reinforces that view in peoples minds. As the forum guru you need to be above that sort of pettiness. We already have one member who has that well and truly covered.
Discrediting the messenger as a tactic happens all too often here when the status quo is challenged. Mike Ramos for example had this to say just last week about people who do not conform to forum lore - "just continue the search for disapproval in vain narcissism – ah yes, hubris knows no bounds...." It's just possible Mike that there is knowledge beyond the forum and being a dissenting voice is not a sign of personality disorder.
Noel
Response:
Noel you are right, I should have never questioned anything you have written or offered in support of a position.
I will say this, I have not made anything personal and if you fell I have, I apologize for that.
Why was your post about "trail braking" questioned and Pat's about "hanging off" not? Well, I agree with Pat's statement and do not agree with yours. But since you have so eloquently pointed out, I should have read the article you posted by Keith and then I could have made a more informed response. But instead I chose to respond only based on my actual experience and not words of others.
As I said before...
Quote from: racerrad8 on June 28, 2016, 10:28:46 AM
I give up :flag_of_truce:
Back to regular scheduled programming, please continue where Noel left off...
Quote from: ribbert on June 27, 2016, 09:40:20 AM
I agree, as is trail braking.
Noel
Randy -
RPM (http://www.rpmracingca.com/)
Having read all the above, I think I'll continue to cruise through the corners and enjoy the scenery. :music:
Noel,
It is interesting to see how the subject was so capriciously yet adroitly switched from "hanging off" to "trail braking"....! While it may be your option to change the focus of the original post, doing so merely underscores your combination of shrewd and puerile behavior. But you have been clever by half...
Your misinterpretation of my comments regarding "hanging off" on the street, or that I was desiring to be challenged on the subject, was plain ignorance at best and at worse a failed attempt to dissemble your actual intent. Even after it was clearly explained to you by Mr. Olson, you remained insistent.
However, your attempt to attribute to me a statement you yourself made that someone has a "personality disorder" because they disagree is bizarre, odious, and a useless endeavor. Disagreement is part and parcel to a variety of subjects on this Forum and all who participate know this.
The object of my original post was simple. It was to clearly show that under a variety of conditions and road surfaces (even with riding to the edges of the tires, with a properly adjusted suspension and without having the motorcycle raised, all underscored and buttressed by the video) nothing drags except a foot peg occasionally. It was an absolute and complete repudiation of your claim (within the parameters noted above) that it is possible to drag the exhaust and undercarriage, let alone the brake and gear shift levers.
You have been harping on the subject for sometime; later, when asked about a particular post, your reply was you were "disproving Mike Ramos". Feel free to parse this post if you so desire, yet your exaggerated and pedantic claims remain more than circumspect; they have in fact been concisely and empirically disproved.
Idealized track conditions are not normally found on the street; at times the divide between the two is wide and often the parallels are few. I am fortunate to live on the roads you ride to -- from home I can journey literally hundreds of miles without ever riding on a main thoroughfare and a thousand more without encountering a four-lane. With excellent all around performance from both a well tuned engine and suspension, the reverie never ends...
So, feel free to change the subject, bring in experts and articles not related to the original discussion, incorrectly attribute detrimental statements you yourself made to others, and continue your ad hominem attacks all you desire. Such behavior is that of a recreant.
Of course, always ride safe.
Midget
Quote from: Mike Ramos on July 07, 2016, 12:25:00 AM
Noel,
But you have been clever by half...
Midget
Mike, just read your post in its entirety, I believe the saying is "
too clever by half"
Noel