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General Category => Yamaha FJ1100 / FJ1200 Running Problems => Topic started by: Yamahammer1200 on March 24, 2016, 10:29:32 PM

Title: Ignition questions
Post by: Yamahammer1200 on March 24, 2016, 10:29:32 PM
The right coil seems to be failing.  This occurs when the engine is hot, traffic or afternoons, never in the morning when it is cool and foggy.
The tach needle drops out, and so do two cylinders. 
Sometimes the coil wakes back up, but that isn't happening much anymore.
When the bike dies, I can wait 10 minutes and fire it up again.  Then it fails a few miles down the road.
I have checked the ground and connectors, all good.
To confuse matters, I do have a Dyna 2000 ignition.  I'm not sure if this could be a factor.
Please advise.
Title: Re: Ignition questions
Post by: fj1289 on March 24, 2016, 11:24:18 PM
Try swapping the coils.  If it follows the coil ID saythe coil is going bad.  If it stays with the same cylinders I'd suspect the Dyna2000
Title: Re: Ignition questions
Post by: red on March 24, 2016, 11:33:06 PM
Quote from: Yamahammer1200 on March 24, 2016, 10:29:32 PMThe right coil seems to be failing.  This occurs when the engine is hot, traffic or afternoons, never in the morning when it is cool and foggy.
Yamahammer,

If you have a digital Voltmeter, you can use the Ohms function for some quick-&-dirty testing.  Disconnect the wiring to the coils, everywhere.  Measure the Ohms from the input to ground, on each coil.  Measure the Ohms from the output (spark plug lead socket) to ground, on each coil.  The two input ohms readings should be fairly close in value (within maybe 5%).  The two output Ohms readings will be very different from the input values, but these two output readings should also be fairly close to each other (within maybe 5%).  Most likely, the bad coil will have an input reading or an output reading that is less than the good coil.  All you can do with a bad coil is to replace it, and it's best (for performance and reliability) to replace both coils if one is bad.  You can keep the leftover good coil as a spare, if you like.  New coil-to-sparkplug wires and boots would be advisable too, in case a bad wire has taken out one coil.

Of course, the best testing would be done with a coil tester, or with an inductance meter, but equipment like that may be scarce.

Cheers,
Red
Title: Re: Ignition questions
Post by: FJ_Hooligan on March 25, 2016, 04:49:18 PM
It's the Dyna ignition.

I had 2 do the EXACT same thing.  Sent them back to Dyna and they confirmed it was a bad solder joint that would fail when hot.

They charged me $123 for a new unit.  Supposedly that's their cost.  

I bought 2 Dynas at the same time because I had 2 FJ and was going to do them both.  Almost immediately, one coil went bad.  They sent a replacement for free.  That ignition unit was installed for about 5 years and had maybe 5000 miles on it.  I swapped to my other unit (never installed it on the second FJ due to the problems I was having on the first) as a backup while the first unit was being tested at Dyna.  It lasted about a week then started doing the same thing.

The new units have been failure free for several years now.

Get hold of Larry Nelson at Dynatek 1-800-928-3962
Title: Re: Ignition questions
Post by: fj1289 on March 25, 2016, 07:40:04 PM
Quote from: FJ_Hooligan on March 25, 2016, 04:49:18 PM
It's the Dyna ignition.

I had 2 do the EXACT same thing.  Sent them back to Dyna and they confirmed it was a bad solder joint that would fail when hot.

They charged me $123 for a new unit.  Supposedly that's their cost.  

I bought 2 Dynas at the same time because I had 2 FJ and was going to do them both.  Almost immediately, one coil went bad.  They sent a replacement for free.  That ignition unit was installed for about 5 years and had maybe 5000 miles on it.  I swapped to my other unit (never installed it on the second FJ due to the problems I was having on the first) as a backup while the first unit was being tested at Dyna.  It lasted about a week then started doing the same thing.

The new units have been failure free for several years now.

Get hold of Larry Nelson at Dynatek 1-800-928-3962

I have heard of a bad " batch" of it ituo s Dyna had forashoet while -- sounds like you were doubly unlucky!  Other than that bad batch, I haven't heard of many issues first hand.  I've been lucky myself with the two units I have run in the past.
Title: Re: Ignition questions
Post by: Pat Conlon on March 25, 2016, 08:45:50 PM
Chris, Hooli is not the only one, several other folks have reported the same problem (coil dropout)
Randy has a few race car customers who have had the same issue.

I do hope Dyna has corrected the problem. The Dyna 2000 is the only game in town for aftermarket ignitions on our FJ's
Title: Re: Ignition questions
Post by: racerrad8 on March 25, 2016, 11:46:06 PM
Quote from: Pat Conlon on March 25, 2016, 08:45:50 PM
Randy has a few race car customers who have had the same issue.

Still a ongoing issue. You send them back to Dyna, they give you the "cost price" to repair/replace and they send it back to you.

I do not know what the issue is, but one of my locals guys had his crap out at the first race last weekend...it ran fine all last season.

Randy - RPM
Title: Re: Ignition questions
Post by: FJ1100mjk on March 26, 2016, 07:06:48 AM
Quote from: Pat Conlon on March 25, 2016, 08:45:50 PM
The Dyna 2000 is the only game in town for aftermarket ignitions on our FJ's

Maybe not.

MSD MC-4 (https://www.msdperformance.com/products/powersports/motorcycle/parts/4224)

Big $ though, and that's just for the module.
Title: Re: Ignition questions
Post by: fj1289 on March 26, 2016, 12:36:52 PM
Quote from: FJ1100mjk on March 26, 2016, 07:06:48 AM
Quote from: Pat Conlon on March 25, 2016, 08:45:50 PM
The Dyna 2000 is the only game in town for aftermarket ignitions on our FJ's

Maybe not.

MSD MC-4 (https://www.msdperformance.com/products/powersports/motorcycle/parts/4224)

Big $ though, and that's just for the module.

Wow!  For that kind of $$$ I'd want to control a lot more than just the ignition!
Title: Re: Ignition questions
Post by: theLeopard on March 26, 2016, 02:41:48 PM
engine is overheating and shutting down?
sounds like an electronic issue, likely sensor calibration.

if that isn't the issue, i've heard a few people talk about "hot starts". apparently you can upgrade/update the starter hardware to keep the bike running even while hot.

myself i'd suggest a larger oil pan and incorporating an aircooling vent (similar to the engine vents on the side ferrings) to push air over your oil pan. that presumes you ride it enough, hard enough, to need that sort of aftermarket upgrade.

i'd also suggest cleaning the block and fiddling with the aircooling for the engine block (ferring work, mostly) or possibly making a conversion to a liquid-cooled system but
1) i dont know jack &
2) you're paying for it

might consider optimizing your chain length to reduce the RPM requirements at speed. for the most part a longer chain will allow you to drive faster with less engine stress, but you'll lose a bit of torque. you can calibrate your sprockets as well, and you'll want to optimize your wheel bearings and probably upgrade your rims to something lighter than OEM.

good luck~
Title: Re: Ignition questions
Post by: simi_ed on March 26, 2016, 03:37:37 PM
FTFY!

Ed
:wacko2:
Quote from: theLeopard on March 26, 2016, 02:41:48 PM
engine is overheating and shutting down?
sounds like an electronic issue, likely sensor calibration.

if that isn't the issue, i've heard a few people talk about "hot starts". apparently you can upgrade/update the starter hardware to keep the bike running even while hot.

myself i'd suggest a larger oil pan and incorporating an aircooling vent (similar to the engine vents on the side ferrings) to push air over your oil pan. that presumes you ride it enough, hard enough, to need that sort of aftermarket upgrade.

i'd also suggest cleaning the block and fiddling with the aircooling for the engine block (ferring work, mostly) or possibly making a conversion to a liquid-cooled system but

1) i dont know jack &
2) you're paying for it

might consider optimizing your chain length to reduce the RPM requirements at speed. for the most part a longer chain will allow you to drive faster with less engine stress, but you'll lose a bit of torque. you can calibrate your sprockets as well, and you'll want to optimize your wheel bearings and probably upgrade your rims to something lighter than OEM.

good luck~
Title: Re: Ignition questions
Post by: rktmanfj on March 26, 2016, 03:40:44 PM
Quote from: simi_ed on March 26, 2016, 03:37:37 PM
FTFY!

Ed

   :good2:

Title: Re: Ignition questions
Post by: Arnie on March 26, 2016, 07:14:19 PM
Ed,

You nailed it.  :hi:
Title: Re: Ignition questions
Post by: Yamahammer1200 on March 28, 2016, 12:32:51 AM
I picked up a coil on eBay, and will replace the original.  If the problem persists, I will look to the Dyna 2000.
Can the Dyna ruin a coil if it goes bad?
I also made up a coil relay harness that I plan on installing with the replacement coil
Title: Re: Ignition questions
Post by: flips on March 28, 2016, 03:37:21 AM
Hi Yamahammer1200

Quote from: FJ_Hooligan on March 25, 2016, 04:49:18 PM
It's the Dyna ignition.


+1 :yes:

I had the same thing happen to my dyna2000 ignition. It would drop a coil when hot.
Re fitted the oem ignition and the problem went away.

I must admit though , it seemed to really run sweet when the dyna was working!.

I have been contemplating one of these ...
(http://i.ebayimg.com/00/s/ODY0WDExNTI=/z/JfYAAOSw9mFWJxkg/$_57.JPG)
http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/For-YAMAHA-FJ-XJ-400-550-750-900-1100-1200-IGNITION-/201548597510?hash=item2eed3b8906:g:JfYAAOSw9mFWJxkg (http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/For-YAMAHA-FJ-XJ-400-550-750-900-1100-1200-IGNITION-/201548597510?hash=item2eed3b8906:g:JfYAAOSw9mFWJxkg)

Any one tried this ignition before?  :scratch_one-s_head:

Cheers,  :drinks:

Jeff P
Title: Re: Ignition questions
Post by: aviationfred on March 28, 2016, 08:45:41 AM
I use a Vance & Hines PowerPak. I found a used one and have been using it for a bit over a year. No problems and it works very well. These are hard to come by as they are no longer in production and there is no manufacturer support.

In 4 years, I have seen 2 show up on eBay.

Title: Re: Ignition questions
Post by: Pat Conlon on March 28, 2016, 10:29:02 AM
Quote from: flips on March 28, 2016, 03:37:21 AM

Any one tried this ignition before?  :scratch_one-s_head:


Yes, I tried a Hyperpac on my '84, a couple of points: 1) No sidestand switch circuit 2) Does not play nice with the tach....makes it go wacky.

I went back to the oem box. 
Title: Re: Ignition questions
Post by: flips on March 28, 2016, 01:19:42 PM
Hi Pat.
Quote from: Pat Conlon on March 28, 2016, 10:29:02 AM

Yes, I tried a Hyperpac on my '84, a couple of points: 1) No sidestand switch circuit 2) Does not play nice with the tach....makes it go wacky.

I went back to the oem box. 
Thanks for the info. I shall steer clear  :yes:
Quote
1) No sidestand switch circuit


Did you install a sidestand switch on your 84 or is that just an observation on the Hyperpac?.Never was a sidestand switch on my 86.


Cheers  :drinks:

Jeff P
Title: Re: Ignition questions
Post by: Pat Conlon on March 28, 2016, 01:54:44 PM
Hey Jeff, yep, I recently learned of this: The Aussie FJ's have no sidestand switch. Perhaps why the New Zealand HyperPac has no provision for this circuit.

All the USA models and *I think* the Canadian FJ's have the sidestand switch. The normally closed circuit goes to the oem ignitor box, when the sidestand is down, it compresses the switch and opens this circuit and shuts off power to the box.**

I use my sidestand switch all the time, it's how I shut my bike off. That way I know my sidestand is in the down position before I dismount.
(don't ask)

Although I've been known to walk away and leave my key on.  :dash1:

I thought it was no big deal not having the sidestand switch, but I did miss it. Call me a creature of habit

** I was thinking to splice this sidestand switch circuit in to the ground feed on the HyperPac, but it was not that easy.
I needed to figure out the logic on how the sidestand switch circuit plays with the neutral switch circuit.
My sidestand can be down (circuit open) but if the bike is in neutral, it can start and run.
Title: Re: Ignition questions
Post by: Arnie on March 28, 2016, 07:49:47 PM
Pat,

I don't know if the early Aus FJs had no sidestand switch, but my '91 certainly did.
Be interesting to hear from the others on this list with ADR plated bikes if they had switches.
Title: Re: Ignition questions
Post by: Pat Conlon on March 28, 2016, 08:29:26 PM
Yea, I remember you guys talking about the early FJ's (84-87?) not having the switch.
The discussion came up when we were talking about extended side stands.
Title: Re: Ignition questions
Post by: oldktmdude on March 28, 2016, 08:38:07 PM
Quote from: Arnie on March 28, 2016, 07:49:47 PM
Pat,

I don't know if the early Aus FJs had no sidestand switch, but my '91 certainly did.
Be interesting to hear from the others on this list with ADR plated bikes if they had switches.

Arnie, I've had two 85's and neither had a switch or provision for mounting one. Alf's just bought an '85 and the same goes for his, no switch.
Title: Re: Ignition questions
Post by: theLeopard on March 28, 2016, 09:45:45 PM
Quote from: simi_ed on March 26, 2016, 03:37:37 PM
FTFY!

Ed
:shok:
:rofl:
Title: Re: Ignition questions
Post by: FJmonkey on March 28, 2016, 09:52:19 PM
Quote from: theLeopard on March 28, 2016, 09:45:45 PM
Quote from: simi_ed on March 26, 2016, 03:37:37 PM
FTFY!

Ed
:shok:
:rofl:
What? I don't see any connection to this thread...
Title: Re: Ignition questions
Post by: Yamahammer1200 on March 29, 2016, 07:57:23 PM
Alright, the DYNA seems to be the problem, based upon the feedback.
I do like the unit, so I will talk to them about a replacement.  I don't have the OEM igniter.
The unit sits on the right side, under the interior trim panel, above the upper vent screen.
Is there a better (cooler) location?
Title: Re: Ignition questions
Post by: Shane4371 on March 29, 2016, 08:00:15 PM
Their was a discussion in fb about dyna ignitions.most had bad reviews for our fjs
Title: Re: Ignition questions
Post by: Harvy on March 29, 2016, 09:49:30 PM
Quote from: Yamahammer1200 on March 29, 2016, 07:57:23 PM

Is there a better (cooler) location?

Yes the harness is long enough to allow it to sit in the tail section beside the tool roll.
Mine sits in a stubby cooler in there to provide some water protection.
Its been there for around 6 or 7 years now and I have had no problems at all.

Harvy
Title: Re: Ignition questions
Post by: Yamahammer1200 on March 29, 2016, 11:18:00 PM
Harvy, I'll see if that works.
You'll have to explain to a Yankee what a 'stubby cooler' is, though.
Thanks
Title: Re: Ignition questions
Post by: Arnie on March 29, 2016, 11:33:17 PM
I think you call it a "coozie".
Piece of neoprene wet suit material that allows you to hold a cold can of beverage.
Frequently as advertising printed on it.
Title: Re: Ignition questions
Post by: FJ1100mjk on March 30, 2016, 05:29:44 AM
Quote from: Harvy on March 29, 2016, 09:49:30 PM
Quote from: Yamahammer1200 on March 29, 2016, 07:57:23 PM

Is there a better (cooler) location?

Yes the harness is long enough to allow it to sit in the tail section beside the tool roll.
Mine sits in a stubby cooler in there to provide some water protection.
Its been there for around 6 or 7 years now and I have had no problems at all.

Harvy

Here's how I mounted mine next to the tool kit location. Going strong after a number of years.

(http://fjowners.com/gallery/5/1388_12_05_13_2_49_04.jpeg)

It was down near the air box, where the original igniter was.
Title: Re: Ignition questions
Post by: Earl Svorks on April 02, 2016, 01:05:38 AM
Quote from: red on March 24, 2016, 11:33:06 PM
Quote from: Yamahammer1200 on March 24, 2016, 10:29:32 PMThe right coil seems to be failing.  This occurs when the engine is hot, traffic or afternoons, never in the morning when it is cool and foggy.
Yamahammer,

If you have a digital Voltmeter, you can use the Ohms function for some quick-&-dirty testing.  Disconnect the wiring to the coils, everywhere.  Measure the Ohms from the input to ground, on each coil.  Measure the Ohms from the output (spark plug lead socket) to ground, on each coil.  The two input ohms readings should be fairly close in value (within maybe 5%).  The two output Ohms readings will be very different from the input values, but these two output readings should also be fairly close to each other (within maybe 5%).  Most likely, the bad coil will have an input reading or an output reading that is less than the good coil.  All you can do with a bad coil is to replace it, and it's best (for performance and reliability) to replace both coils if one is bad.  You can keep the leftover good coil as a spare, if you like.  New coil-to-sparkplug wires and boots would be advisable too, in case a bad wire has taken out one coil.

Of course, the best testing would be done with a coil tester, or with an inductance meter, but equipment like that may be scarce.

Cheers,
Red
[/quote Red, the procedure you describe for coil checking is not suited for coils with two secondary leads. Those two "output" terminals are connected to either end of the secondary winding.As such they are both above ground. There are two primary terminals , one at each end of the primary winding.Neither of which are "grounded" except through the contact breaker  when that circuit is closed.
   Cheers
  Simon
Title: Re: Ignition questions
Post by: Yamahammer1200 on April 17, 2016, 03:20:48 PM
I moved the Dyna to the tail section, but the problem still shows up. :dash2:
The next move is to swap the right coil with the one I picked up on eBay.
I am also going to make sure the coil grounds are clean, bright, and tight.
Title: Re: Ignition questions
Post by: Pat Conlon on April 17, 2016, 08:47:40 PM
Aslo clean the contacts on your run-stop switch.
Title: Re: Ignition questions
Post by: Yamahammer1200 on April 17, 2016, 11:43:30 PM
 Will do, thanks.
Title: Re: Ignition questions
Post by: Yamahammer1200 on April 18, 2016, 08:03:01 PM
Replaced the coil (EBay ,'90 FJ) last night, cleaned the contacts on the  kill switch.
Nice and warm out today (about 85).
Got maybe 5 miles, then my heart sank along with the tach needle and power!
I waited maybe 10 minutes in the shade, then fired it right up and returned home.
It seems to be a heat soak issue, where the higher temp causes an open circuit to the right coil.
I thought that moving the Dyna ignition to the tail section  would cure this, but maybe it's toast.
The problem has been occurring more often than before. It only happened twice while commuting 3 days a week last summer.
I think I am going to stick the Dyna in the freezer tonight and ride it tomorrow afternoon.
If The bike makes it farther than earlier tests, the Dyna is heading to the factory.
Title: Re: Ignition questions
Post by: FJ_Hooligan on April 19, 2016, 10:15:34 PM
Did you a) not read or b) not understand my post?

You can't fix this problem.  Only a new Dyna unit will fix it
Title: Re: Ignition questions
Post by: Yamahammer1200 on May 10, 2016, 10:14:04 PM
FJ Hooligan  :hi:  You were correct.  Dyna sent me a new unit ($159) after mine failed their test.
Hooked it up today and it ran great. 
Title: Re: Ignition questions
Post by: FJ_Hooligan on May 11, 2016, 10:58:06 AM
Good to see you got it fixed.  It has been a few years and so far no more problems with my replacement Dyna.