I just want to ask before I start the bike just want to make sure everything is right. From the cdi I connected the red/white wires directly to 86 on the 5 pin relay. Should I add an inline fuse? How do I wire a kill switch from here? 30 has an inline fuse from the solenoid,85 is ground,87 and 87a to the coils.thanks :good2:
Since we are running the coils directly from the battery, I'm not using the stock voltage regulator because of the overcharging problem. I'm using a brand called new era voltage regulator. I've never had any charging problems since then. Would this affect my bike in the long run?
G'day,
There is a discussion covering this in the "Files" section:http://www.fjowners.com/index.php?topic=1755.0
I made up my own diagram awhile ago, it helped me as it was pretty simple to follow:
Cheers, Gareth
(http://fjowners.com/gallery/9/1121_20_02_16_3_51_52.jpeg)
Gareth, you did not change your diagram since we last spoke.
Pin 87A has no power to the coil when the electrically held relay is energized.
(http://www.auto-relay.com/upload/img/20131029/12V_30A_Automotive_Relay2.jpg)
The power leads to both coils should come off of pin 87.
G'day,
Right you are, I remember having that conversation, anyway I have re-posted the corrected image. Apologies for the mistake, I will go a re-polish the FJ in penance :dash2:
Cheers, Gareth
(http://fjowners.com/gallery/9/1121_20_02_16_3_22_39.jpeg)
Thanks Gareth!
Would you mind if I put your excellent diagram over in the Modification Files?
A picture is worth 1000 words.
Thanks again!
G'day,
If the picture can be used, certainly place it where it can be accessed. I hope Fjman finds it useful. In regards to a kill switch, I suppose locate it on an earth or power wire.... someone might have put one on their bike at some point and have a better location...
Thanks again for the heads up Pat.
Cheers, Gareth
Thanks for the response. :good2: I'll save the picture.
Quote from: mr blackstock on February 20, 2016, 05:14:49 PM
G'day,
If the picture can be used, certainly place it where it can be accessed. I hope Fjman finds it useful. In regards to a kill switch, I suppose locate it on an earth or power wire.... someone might have put one on their bike at some point and have a better location...
Thanks again for the heads up Pat.
Cheers, Gareth
Love your diagrams Mr Blackstock, all I have is 2 mercury switches, so if someone moves it off the side stand the hidden siren goes off and off until battery is flat.
I do have to fix that and look into how I wired it about 25yrs ago and put it on paper.
I think I really need a small second battery just for that
What program do you have to draw such Great schematics!!
.Cheers Alan
Hi Gareth
Please, would you mind if I use your diagram in my web?
Cheers
G'day,
Thanks for the feedback about the picture. I used microsoft paint to make the picture up, took about 30 minutes. I did it on the work computer so it is all good. People can use the picture freely, if they can improve it more, feel free to. Pat had a good suggestion though, to run the positive lead to the relay directly from the battery instead of going via the starter solenoid. Both ways work, might be tidier on the wiring though.
I figured that if a diagram was simple to read, especially for me, I would be more likely to use it and less worried about cooking something accidently.
cheers, Gareth
G'day Gareth,
I going to do this on the weekend due to my plugs are always black, do I need to upgrade existing cables to coils from relay with bigger gauge or are they big enough due to now feed is coming straight from battery through relay to coils?
Cheers
Alan
Quote from: Sparky84 on June 24, 2016, 02:26:07 AM
G'day Gareth,
I going to do this on the weekend due to my plugs are always black, do I need to upgrade existing cables to coils from relay with bigger gauge or are they big enough due to now feed is coming straight from battery through relay to coils?
Cheers
Alan
The original wires from the FJ feeding the relays are now just actuating the relays. The added wires from the battery to relays to the coils are now doing the heavy work. So you do not need to change any existing wires unless they are damaged.
Quote from: FJmonkey on June 24, 2016, 11:08:43 AM
The original wires from the FJ feeding the relays are now just actuating the relays. The added wires from the battery to relays to the coils are now doing the heavy work. So you do not need to change any existing wires unless they are damaged.
[/quote]
So that means new cable from battery up to front and fit relay adjacent to coils ,
I was hoping to fit relay adjacent battery and use existing cableto coils being switched through relay
Cheers
Alan
Quote from: Sparky84 on June 25, 2016, 03:05:58 AM
So that means new cable from battery up to front and fit relay adjacent to coils ,
I was hoping to fit relay adjacent battery and use existing cableto coils being switched through relay
Cheers
Alan
Just follow the diagram and you can put the relay anywhere near the battery, all the way to near the coils. Near the battery means you need to run additional wire from the coil plugs back to the relay. Near the coils only adds wire to feed the relay from the battery and make the short connections near the coil connectors. Put the relay where you want, make the connections, all done...
Do you think a solid state relay would work better as no moving parts at high rpm rather than a standard Bosch mechanical one
I don't know. I like the idea of no moving parts however, I would not consider adding any more solid state components unless I had the Transpo voltage regulator mod done to assure I had stable voltage.
I suspect those tiny circuit do dads don't like voltage spikes.
My old school coil relay (with a plug base) has been doing fine for over 7 years now....I do carry a spare I can plug in. I gotta say, the coil relay mod sure wakes things up.
Thanks, I know where you're coming from Pat :yes: that's why the question.
This SSR has a pretty big voltage range, to activate 3-32V dc and can switch 40A, 5-60V dc.
So hopefully no voltage spikes will worry it.
But still unsure
Quote from: Pat Conlon on February 16, 2019, 03:39:11 AM
I don't know. I like the idea of no moving parts however, I would not consider adding any more solid state components unless I had the Transpo voltage regulator mod done to assure I had stable voltage.
I suspect those tiny circuit do dads don't like voltage spikes.
My old school coil relay (with a plug base) has been doing fine for over 7 years now....I do carry a spare I can plug in. I gotta say, the coil relay mod sure wakes things up.
That's the very reason I use SSR's, reliability, no moving parts. The FJ has 4 of them, heat and vibration has had no adverse effect on them.
While reliable in use, there does seem to be a higher incidence of duds new off the shelf. In the last few years I've had a few that have not worked straight from the shop. I now test them before installion.
Noel
Quote from: Pat Conlon on February 16, 2019, 03:39:11 AM
I don't know. I like the idea of no moving parts however, I would not consider adding any more solid state components unless I had the Transpo voltage regulator mod done to assure I had stable voltage.
I suspect those tiny circuit do dads don't like voltage spikes.
My old school coil relay (with a plug base) has been doing fine for over 7 years now....I do carry a spare I can plug in. I gotta say, the coil relay mod sure wakes things up.
Pat, what do you mean about "wakes things up"?
Joe
The relay mod provides a full 12 volts to the coils so they get a higher charge and produce a better spark. This makes the engine start much easier.
I noticed this when I installed Dyna coils. I don't even hear the starter crank anymore. The starter button is like an ON switch. All I have to do is touch it and the motor is instantly running.
^^^ Yep, what David said...
Quote from: ribbert on February 16, 2019, 06:46:41 AM
Quote from: Pat Conlon on February 16, 2019, 03:39:11 AM
I don't know. I like the idea of no moving parts however, I would not consider adding any more solid state components unless I had the Transpo voltage regulator mod done to assure I had stable voltage.
I suspect those tiny circuit do dads don't like voltage spikes.
My old school coil relay (with a plug base) has been doing fine for over 7 years now....I do carry a spare I can plug in. I gotta say, the coil relay mod sure wakes things up.
That's the very reason I use SSR's, reliability, no moving parts. The FJ has 4 of them, heat and vibration has had no adverse effect on them.
While reliable in use, there does seem to be a higher incidence of duds new off the shelf. In the last few years I've had a few that have not worked straight from the shop. I now test them before installion.
Noel
So when you mean be "not working", that's means I should get a couple of spares to be sure and check them all before use, or put in tool kit for spares on trip.
Quote from: Sparky84 on February 16, 2019, 04:45:13 AM
Thanks, I know where you're coming from Pat :yes: that's why the question.
This SSR has a pretty big voltage range, to activate 3-32V dc and can switch 40A, 5-60V dc.
So hopefully no voltage spikes will worry it.
But still unsure
Good evening & good discussion.
When I had my over charge issue some time ago (see "Accolades" post) I had mechanical relays going the ignition coils, head lights, alternator sensor wire & fuel pump (the latter 3 relays were Panasonic). All of the coils burned out before the components were damaged by the voltage spike.
Leaves one to wonder if using the rated SSR's (or even higher rated mechanical relays) would have allowed the components to be damaged when the voltage spiked.
As an aside: None the accessory circuits were effected as none were on at the time except the radar detector which (fortunately) has low/high voltage protection built into it.
Ride safe.
So, how do we stop voltage spikes or protect against them?
Quote from: Mike Ramos on February 17, 2019, 01:06:24 AM
All of the coils burned out before the components were damaged by the voltage spike.
Do you mean relays?
Quote from: Sparky84 on February 17, 2019, 03:42:06 AM
So, how do we stop voltage spikes or protect against them?
I have a fuse between the battery and each relay, wouldn't that protect it?
Quote from: ribbert on February 17, 2019, 05:45:01 AM
Quote from: Mike Ramos on February 17, 2019, 01:06:24 AM
All of the coils burned out before the components were damaged by the voltage spike.
Do you mean relays?
Yes, the relays burned - thanks for catching that.
Quote from: ribbert on February 17, 2019, 06:13:40 AM
Quote from: Sparky84 on February 17, 2019, 03:42:06 AM
So, how do we stop voltage spikes or protect against them?
I have a fuse between the battery and each relay, wouldn't that protect it?
Excellent question:
You would think so, and each circuit/relay is fused separately, including the main relay going to the fuse block (I have the fuse block located in front of the battery, in the area opened up by eliminating the air box) but the only fuse that eventually did blow, apparently after the damage was done, was the main fuse in the stock fuse block. No other fuse blew!
It seems as if fuses protect against shorts, however not so much against voltage spikes.
So as not to interfer with the stock wiring, there is a seperate fuse blocck for the accesories located behaind the dash board glove box window .
I'll be away from a computer until Wednesday & post pictures at that time if there is an interest.
Ride safe!
They do make fuses that are "fast blow", don't know how fast is fast but they may work. On the other hand do you really want to install a device that may shut down the circuit on a repeat basis?
Quote from: ribbert on February 17, 2019, 05:45:01 AM
Quote from: Mike Ramos on February 17, 2019, 01:06:24 AM
All of the coils burned out before the components were damaged by the voltage spike.
Do you mean relays?
the term coil when referring to relays is specific to the very fine coil of wire that creates the magnetism that operate the contacts.When Mike said all the coils burned out I think he meant that they became the weakest link in the event of a voltage spike.
Quote from: ribbert on February 17, 2019, 06:13:40 AM
Quote from: Sparky84 on February 17, 2019, 03:42:06 AM
So, how do we stop voltage spikes or protect against them?
I have a fuse between the battery and each relay, wouldn't that protect it?
Fuses protect against over current and are usually installed to protect wiring not components.
Unless you install a individual fuse to protect each component which could would be a lot.
That'd also be very small rated fuses also.
Quote from: T Legg on February 17, 2019, 11:07:59 AM
Quote from: ribbert on February 17, 2019, 05:45:01 AM
Quote from: Mike Ramos on February 17, 2019, 01:06:24 AM
All of the coils burned out before the components were damaged by the voltage spike.
Do you mean relays?
the term coil when referring to relays is specific to the very fine coil of wire that creates the magnetism that operate the contacts.When Mike said all the coils burned out I think he meant that they became the weakest link in the event of a voltage spike.
I'd agree with that, so when the coils burnt out they couldn't operate and stopped switching the voltage spike through to whatever was being switched.
Travis can check me on this but I'm not aware that fuses protect against excessive voltage. I think they only protect against excessive amperage. Travis made a good point about the coils in the relays as well. I hadn't thought of that.
Joe
Quote from: Sparky84 on February 17, 2019, 12:21:54 PM
Quote from: T Legg on February 17, 2019, 11:07:59 AM
Quote from: ribbert on February 17, 2019, 05:45:01 AM
Quote from: Mike Ramos on February 17, 2019, 01:06:24 AM
All of the coils burned out before the components were damaged by the voltage spike.
Do you mean relays?
the term coil when referring to relays is specific to the very fine coil of wire that creates the magnetism that operate the contacts.When Mike said all the coils burned out I think he meant that they became the weakest link in the event of a voltage spike.
I'd agree with that, so when the coils burnt out they couldn't operate and stopped switching the voltage spike through to whatever was being switched.
.....yes, but to refer to a relay as a coil is misleading (in automotive jargon anyway) and in this instance Mike has acknowledged he meant "relay".
Doesn't the frying of a component because of high voltage cause heat which in turn results in a short which then creates resistance/load which would blow a fuse? (all in a hearbeat)
Alan, you ask the question about how we protect our bikes from this, I'm not sure I'd bother, it's a pretty rare event (I've never come across it). Batteries act like shock absorbers for electrical current and absorb such events, unlike mains power which has no such buffer.
You can get 12 v relays with voltage protection (varistors?) but they are not common and I've never seen one in automotive use.
Alan, you sound like an electrician? (as opposed to an auto elec)
I have some questions for the electrically gifted, which I'm not. How does a voltage spike occur and more to the point, how does it get through the battery and how can a relay burn out without triggering a fuse and was Mike's problem actually a voltage "spike" or some other cause and if it was high voltage, was it in fact for a period of time rather than a spike and why wasn't the relay protected?
Noel
the generator is capable of generating much more than 14 volts but is controlled by the rectifier/voltage regulator circuit the over voltage occurs when the rectifier fails. i guess the word voltage spike means a short term transient rise in voltage Im no expert on motorcycle charging systems,I dont know whether spikes are common i was referring to a regulator failure leading to steady over voltage problem but the problems caused are the same. current flow called amperage causes heat,the amount of current flow is determined by the equation I=E/R.I stands for current or amperage,E stands for voltage and R stands for resistance so by the equation if you increase the voltage you also increase the amperage and therefore heat causing the wire to burn.A short circuit is when the wire or path of current is shunted around the resistance of the intended load directly to ground a path with much less resistance.decreasing the resistance has the same effect as increasing the voltage in that it allows more current and therefore heat to flow through the wire than the wire is rated at that point the fuse should melt.The contacts of the relays can handle ( depending on the rating) many amps of current flow the very fine magnetic coil wire of the relay can only handle a fraction of an amp so when the voltage rises high enough the current flow increase causes the coil wire to melt very quickly before even the fuses heat up enough to melt.the voltage from the generator goes through the rectifier to the positive side of the battery but it doesnt have to flow through the battery to get to the other components.
T Legg
Thank's for steeling my thunder.
What you say is exactly right.
The Alternator (not generator) is capable of producing much more than 14 volts. The voltage produced by the alternator is controlled by the excitation of the alternators field winding, which in turn is controlled by the Regulator.
A true voltage Spike / Transient can last for much less than a Milli second, maybe a micro second. In electronics, voltage spikes are controlled with filters, either active (which use Operational Amplifiers), or passive (LC or RC networks).
LC = Inductor / Capacitor, RC = Resistor / Capacitor.
As Alan pointed out, a Fuse is there to protect the Cabling only. The cross sectional area and material (usually copper) determines the Current rating of the cable and the type and thickness of the insulation determines the Voltage rating.
(the size of the pipe determines the amount of water which can flow, (current) and the strength of the pipes wall determines the maximum pressure (voltage))
So, if a cable is rated for a Continuous Current of 20A, it would be wise to protect the cable with , say, a 16A fuse. A good rule of thumb is to use a fuse rating 80% of the current rating of the cable.
As for the relay coils burning out, the would require a rather large, short lived over voltage condition or a smaller and sustained over voltage condition.
A normal 12V relay coil is around 90 ohms resistance so, 12 / 90 = 0.133 amps.
But, our motorcycles generally operate closer to 14V so 14 / 90 = 0.155 amps, not much difference.
However, it gives an idea of the fuse rating which would be required in order to protect the relay coil and a separate fuse would be required for each relay, simply not practical.
I have seen Surge Protectors which use an N-channel MOSFET and limit the maximum voltage to approx 18V. I need to do more investigation.
As for what produces a spike, well, the ignition coils are an excellent example. The primary coil is excited with our 14v then, when the ignition module switches the ignition coil off, the collapsing magnetic field produces a high voltage (upwards of 20,000V) in the secondary winding to fire the Spark Plug. This occurs when the current to any coil, including a relay coil, is interupted. (though the voltage produced will not be this high)
The usual way to circumvent these transient voltages is to place an ultra fast, reversed biased diode, of suitable current and voltage rating, across the coil.
Good maintenance should include a regular (say 20,000Km, 12,000 mile) check of the alternator's brushes and slip rings and there may be good reason for the fitment of a Quality Volt Meter to our motorcycles. IMO
Gavin
Great responses Trevor and Gavin, thanks.
:good2:
Noel
What they said
Spikes are also generated by things being turned off and not just on, go figure, and the coils go off every time a spark is produced.
Is there a way to fit CDI to the FJ's rather than use coils :unknown: could be more efficient with bigger spark.
Cheers
Alan
A CDI ignition generates a spark with a higher voltage but a much shorter duration.
Not so good for our low compression engines.
Gavin
So to get this right in my head,
- you only need 1 relay.
- the relay only is powered after starting and just stays ON and gives both coils a positive continuously.
- the ignition module stops the negative to the coils to give spark.
So you could still have low voltage at coils if there is bad connections in ignition module after the mod.
Cheers
Alan
No, the relay is activated by the original ignition switched red/white wire with a ground.
The relay controls (switches) a NEW wire that comes directly from the battery, or a power distribution panel.
This wire has minimal connections and is usually a lower (thicker) gauge that maintains a higher voltage to the coils.
Yes, the relay stays on with the ignition and you only need 1 coil. Split the relay output to both coils.
If I was to get new coils would 4ohm ones be ok?
As I remember it, the early models with TCI ignition used 2 ohm coils ('84 to '87) and later model with the CDI use 4 ohm coils.
Someone please check me on that.
Quote from: FJ_Hooligan on March 01, 2019, 11:44:11 AM
As I remember it, the early models with TCI ignition used 2 ohm coils ('84 to '87) and later model with the CDI use 4 ohm coils.
Someone please check me on that.
Backwards amigo
Dyna green 3 ohm on TCI ('84-87) and early DCI ('89-90)
Dyna grey 2.2 ohm on '91-95 DCI
Well, I had a 50/50 chance. :-)
My confusion is due to running a set of the Grey coils with a Dyna ignition on my '85
(next time I give advice, just do the opposite :-)
No worries David, got your back... :greeting:
For years I (mistakenly) thought all FJ's were 3 ohm, but a couple of years ago I learned that 4th gen '91-95's used oem 2 ohm coils. I've always thought to use the Dyna gray 2.2 coils only with the Dyna ignition, but it turns out you can also use the Dyna gray's with the oem 91-95 ignition.
Quote from: Pat Conlon on March 01, 2019, 02:39:12 PM
Quote from: FJ_Hooligan on March 01, 2019, 11:44:11 AM
As I remember it, the early models with TCI ignition used 2 ohm coils ('84 to '87) and later model with the CDI use 4 ohm coils.
Someone please check me on that.
Backwards amigo
Dyna green 3 ohm on TCI ('84-87) and early DCI ('89-90)
Dyna grey 2.2 ohm on '91-95 DCI
What determines the correct coils to use, is it the type ignition system?
Did the DCI change between 90 and 91?
I've still got standard TCI but also have Hyperpak module for FJ1100 as spare.
So if I change to 4 ohm will they still work on the Hyperpak
Yes, the 4 ohm will work your FJ and also work with the New Zealand HyperPac.
I used the HyperPac for a couple of years on my '84 but you lose the side stand switch with it, so I went back to oem. I always use the side stand switch to turn off my bike....that way, when the engine is off... I KNOW I've extended the side stand before I dismount....just don't ask why I do it this way.....
I've just got to figure out a way not to leave my ignition key on.
Quote from: Pat Conlon on March 01, 2019, 08:18:54 PM
Yes, the 4 ohm will work your FJ and also work with the New Zealand HyperPac.
I used the HyperPac for a couple of years on my '84 but you lose the side stand switch with it, so I went back to oem. I always use the side stand switch to turn off my bike....that way, when the engine is off... I KNOW I've extended the side stand before I dismount....just don't ask why I do it this way.....
I've just got to figure out a way not to leave my ignition key on.
Thanks but I have to remember now anyway :yes:
Do the 4 ohm work better than standard?
Don't know, what 4 ohm coils?
There is nothing wrong with the stock FJ coils. They work great, especially with a better power supply.