Hello gentlemen,
Fj1100 started to run very mildly choppy at about 1/4 to 1/2 throttle. I figured that I would take this time to install 40 pilots and smaller main's(have been running way to big).
Cleaned out the pilot and float systems with carb cleaner and compressed air. reinstalled and ran much worse than before.
So far I have pulled the carbs 4 times, dismantled and cleaned them. Check float height, fuel level, pressure tested float system and even tried a clean second carb bank. No luck!
Since then I have replaced the battery, spark plugs, plug caps, second set of ignition coils No change.
Just pulled the new plugs and they are wet/sooty.
Any Ideas?
Thank you
Brad
Sounds fat: Start with some fresh o rings on your float needle seats.
Double check your choke linkage. Make sure your choke circuits are off.
Our gravity fed FJ's have no fuel filter, just a screen on the petcock, so make sure your tank is clean, clean, clean.
Clean carbs are futile with a contaminated tank.
On the electrical side, clean and grease the contacts in your run/stop switch. This 12v circuit powers your igniter.
done, done, clean. will try cleaning the switch.
Also lack of power Idle to full throttle.
It does seem like it is running fat. Getting tired of pulling carbs.
Any other ideas?
Thanks
Quote from: badams on July 24, 2015, 11:44:44 AM
....Just pulled the new plugs and they are wet/sooty.
Are all the plugs the same?
yes
Think globally.
What would cause all cylinders to run fat all at once?
If an individual cylinder got rich, yea, its the carb or a bad plug, plug boot or plug wire.
If #1 and #4 got fat or #2 and #3, it's probably coil related. 1&4, 2&3 share the same coil
If all 4 cylinders got fat at the same time, and your choke linkage is ok, then it's ignition related. Something's causing a weak spark to all 4 cylinders.
A weak power supply to your ignition could cause this.
Clean your run/stop switch, check the wiring harness plug connections, see if that helps.
ok, thanks. will start checking.
Getting bad flashbacks to the BMW R90
Quote from: badams on July 24, 2015, 12:47:34 PM
done, done, clean. will try cleaning the switch.
Also lack of power Idle to full throttle.
It does seem like it is running fat. Getting tired of pulling carbs.
Any other ideas?
Thanks
So you changed pilots to 40 and mains to ? What jets did you remove? Do you have adjustable needles and what slot are they on if so? Are the other bits in the carbs fresh?
Lastly... what makes you think it is fat? I've spent hundreds of hours (and dollars) making an AFR assumption without any data and then chasing my tail. Turns out when a bike is way lean, you have to wind the throttle open so much it can actually sound and feel fat. Look up the Factory Pro Mikuni CV tuning procedure and go through it top to bottom. Repeat as necessary to get it right and you'll be a happy camper. Once dialed, your FJ will remain a stable toy with minimal maintenance.
The mods will kill you though. :diablo:
Frank
Quote from: badams on July 24, 2015, 12:47:34 PM
Getting tired of pulling carbs.
Oh.. and you're just getting started pulling carbs. Get over it... :big grin:
Frank
Cleaned kill switch- no change.
since all 4 spark plugs look the same I pulled the carbs again and went back to the 37.5 pilots and 114 DJ mains that were originally in the bike when it was running good. Now the bike will start for a second or 2 and die. Choke makes no difference.
Could any other switches or relays cause a problem like the neutral or side stand sensors. I have swapped out both coils, TCI box and new s.p. caps, new battery with no change.
My new rear avon storm 3D max tire needs to be tested out.
Here is a cross conversion of main jet sizes. I can't testify as to accuracy but it looks like your DJ 114 is equivalent to a Mikuni 106.9.
http://www.triumphrat.net/hinckley-classic-triples/121732-good-chart-on-keihin-vs-mikuni-jet-sizes.html (http://www.triumphrat.net/hinckley-classic-triples/121732-good-chart-on-keihin-vs-mikuni-jet-sizes.html)
That's half the story, what needle are you using ? My carbs had a DJ "kit" in it. I converted it all back to stock Mikuni parts including the diaphragm springs. Much happier now. I have something I can adjust as required.
Hope it helps. IMO don't mix DJ with Mikuni parts. At 0-1/4 throttle you are mostly on the pilots and fuel air screws, around 1/4 throttle you are coming on to the needle/jet combo around 3/4 throttle you are coming onto mainly just the jet size.
Randy at RPM has jets and just as nice ,adjustable needles.
As I brought the subject up here is a picture of the Mikuni spring vs the DJ spring for future information.
(http://fjowners.com/gallery/7/1651_18_03_14_5_26_13.jpeg)
George
By pass the side stand kill switch.
Follow the wires up and find the plug on the left side. Unplug. Take 2 female spade connectors and make a wire jumper. Plug the females on the male prongs of the plug. The circuit must be closed for the bike to run.
Easily reversible if you find that the side stand switch is not the culprit.
Quote from: movenon on July 25, 2015, 03:02:50 PM
Here is a cross conversion of main jet sizes. I can't testify as to accuracy but it looks like your DJ 114 is equivalent to a Mikuni 106.9.
George
That is a terrible chart for jet size comparison. Mikuni only make jets in flow rates not by hole size. So, all Mikuni jets are incrementally divided, i.e: 110, 112.5, 115, 117.5, 120...
Now, looking at the chart, they don't even have the actual Mikuni jet sizes listed, but have come up some other comparison number, like 106.9...
By the chart I have, the 114DJ jet is equal to a 107.5 Mikuni jet which is one size smaller than stock. But like George said, the needle and slide spring play a roll in the mid-range of the carb but once it is wide open, that is all main jet.
So, the bike ran before but poorly, and now it just starts & dies?
Randy - RPM
sorry for the break in the thread. Had do deal with strokes/turret's(kidding) from this problem.
Bypassed kick stand-no change
Changed side stand relay-no change
Cleaned kill switch 2X-no change
Cleaned ignition switch-no change
Swapped both coils-no change
new plug caps-no change
new battery-no change
Carb setup is:
Stock mikuni parts(40 pilots), and 110 DJ mains- I had DJ 114's in when it was running decent but rich.
I have seriously cleaned and checked the carbs 6X now. tried changing pilot and mains- not the problem.
Played with air mix screws which didn't seem to improve situation. Carbs synchronized.
All 4 new spark plugs are now dry fouled.
When I can get it running is backfires through all cylinders.
No confidence with electrical testing which is why I have been swapping parts with my parts bike.
????????? :flag_of_truce:
When you say that your plugs are now "dry fouled" do you mean wet with gas?
Ohm check the resistance to your pick up coils. Unplug at the ignition box and check the circuit from there.
You should read 149-182 ohms at 68*F for each pick up coil.
I don't think this is it, if one pickup coil went bad, you would still be getting spark on the other 2 cylinders
I'm running out of ideas, unless the TCI ignition module is at fault.
Did you check to see that you are getting full voltage at your ignition TCI box? There is a 14 pin block wire connector between the run/stop switch and your ignition TCI box, did you check/clean that big plug?
You have an 1100 so that means you have a vacuum operated petcock on your tank. Perhaps that petcock is loosing vacuum and closing? You have 2 settings on the petcock lever 1) On and 2) Prime (P)
Move your petcock over to P which will open the flow of gas to your engine with no vacuum signal.
See if that makes a difference. This is only done for diagnostic purposes only. Do not leave the petcock in the Prime setting or you can free flow fuel, cause a (big) fire or fill up your crankcase with fuel.
How do you have the plug wires routed?
Which coils to which cylinders?
Quote from: Pat Conlon on July 28, 2015, 05:04:20 PM
When you say that your plugs are now "dry fouled" do you mean wet with gas?
I would guess he mean there is enough carbon build up that the spark is not jumping the gap and following the carbon to ground without a spark.
http://www.ngk-sparkplugs.jp/english/techinfo/troubleshooting/03/index.html (http://www.ngk-sparkplugs.jp/english/techinfo/troubleshooting/03/index.html)
I new set of spark plugs will fix that.
Randy - RPM
Very good, thanks Randy!
Love this place
My 1984 FJ1100 (stock + 4-1 RPM exhaust + Unipods + 4 degrees of advance):
Mains 117.5 (max power)
Needles 1mm out (need another .5mm, still lean surge at WOT in the midrange)
Pilot/Air 42.5/160 (uniform low range, best transition to midrange)
Floats .7mm lower (lower fuel level, to clean up low range fatness)
Your sizes just look way low to me. I'm not sure why, but the 1100 motor appears to want fuel to run right. I set this up with 3 runs through the Factory Pro method.
Frank
Quote from: racerrad8 on July 28, 2015, 07:45:09 PM
I would guess he mean there is enough carbon build up that the spark is not jumping the gap and following the carbon to ground without a spark.
http://www.ngk-sparkplugs.jp/english/techinfo/troubleshooting/03/index.html (http://www.ngk-sparkplugs.jp/english/techinfo/troubleshooting/03/index.html)
I new set of spark plugs will fix that.
Randy - RPM
If they're just dirty, clean them. Even cheap plugs should be good for 20,000 miles, iridium or platinum plugs more miles than you're ever likely to rack up .
If they have done significantly less than that you are throwing money in the bin if you replace them just because they're dirty.
Noel
I'll tell you a little story about plugs. My next door neighbour had rebuilt a RM125 for his son. He was having trouble getting it to run and said that it was killing plugs. The thing was bogging down and cutting out after running for a short while on full throttle. He'd replaced about 8 or 9 plugs at about 15 bucks a hit before he called me over to have a look at the bike.
He was also having trouble getting it to idle and this was the first thing I looked at and found the air screw needed adjusting. Got it to idle ok with no hesitation when the throttle was "blipped". I checked the plug and he had replaced the expensive race (OEM) plug with and ordinary one, a NGK B9ES I think it was.
I asked if he had one of the 'dead' plugs and checked it for spark. Nothing. I then got him to kick the motor over while I looked down inside the plug and I could see a faint spark deep within. Fouled plug!
Then I asked him what oil he was using and he said the same as what was in his mower and chain saw and weed whacker. An aha moment. He had a shop manual and when I had a look at it it recommended a full synthetic race oil. I says there's your problem. I cleaned all his 'dead' plugs for him and he went got some of the correct oil and the engine now runs perfect.
Big lesson here? READ THE FRICKIN MANUAL.
And dirty plugs can be cleaned and re used. He now has a lifetime supply.
RTFM....
Quote from: krusty on July 29, 2015, 07:11:22 PM
I'll tell you a little story about plugs......
Prior to electronic ignition and fuel injection, cleaning and re gapping plugs was standard procedure (as per any manufacturers schedule) on intermediate services. Every workshop had a plug cleaning machine/tester. I imagine only long established garages would still have one these days.
I have still have an old one I use occasionally with old cars and small engine equipment.
I changed my last set of standard plugs after 40,000km and was disappointed it made not one iota of difference to starting or running.
Noel
Re-engaged the bike last night after walking away for a while.
The bike will not start now.
Went through the carbs again- good
voltage to the coils and IC unit- good
have a side stand bypass installed
primary and secondary coils resistance- good
pick up coils measures out at 163ish ohms. This is out of spec with both my repair manuals. I measured my parts bike pick up coils and measured the same.
Am I doing something wrong with measuring?
Run/stop switch ?
George
Re: Pick up coils....Both Clymer and Haynes manuals are wrong.
I went through this last year: http://www.fjowners.com/index.php?topic=13448.0 (http://www.fjowners.com/index.php?topic=13448.0)
The Genuine Yamaha Service Manual (GYSM) is what you should use which specifies 149-183 ohms at 68*F
Good news: Your pick up coils are fine.
As George says above^^ check your run/stop switch. The power to your ignition box runs through this switch.
Quote from: badams on August 19, 2015, 10:14:34 AM
The bike will not start now.
Does it turn over but not start? Or won't turn over?
Quote from: Pat Conlon on August 19, 2015, 04:28:07 PM
As George says above^^ check your run/stop switch. The power to your ignition box runs through this switch.
He cleaned/checked the kill switch on 07/25, see page one of two. And he's stated that voltage to the IC is "good".
Quote from: FJ1100mjk on August 19, 2015, 05:31:25 PM
Quote from: Pat Conlon on August 19, 2015, 04:28:07 PM
As George says above^^ check your run/stop switch. The power to your ignition box runs through this switch.
He cleaned/checked the kill switch on 07/25, see page one of two. And he's stated that voltage to the IC is "good".
I was just making sure it wasn't bumped in the "Stop" position. Stranger things have happened.
Back to Marks question "Does it turn over but not start? Or won't turn over?"
As a note, "Capn Ron" had a no start problem once and when he used a timing light (remember those) on number 1 plug wire and checking the firing at the timing rotor and found it out of time. He had to replace the TCI/DCI unit. Also a good way to see if you are getting any voltage to the plug. Ron can elaborate, I am going from memory of he post.
George
Quote from: movenon on August 19, 2015, 06:32:49 PM
As a note, "Capn Ron" had a no start problem once and when he used a timing light (remember those) on number 1 plug wire and checking the firing at the timing rotor and found it out of time. He had to replace the TCI/DCI unit. Also a good way to see if you are getting any voltage to the plug. Ron can elaborate, I am going from memory of he post.
George
Yeah, you got that recollection right, George. Like the OP, I systematically went through each and every system trying to sort out the problem. I learned a lot in the process and even added the coil relay mod because I thought the spark looked weak. Ultimately, it turned out to be a failing ignitor and some superhero (okay, it was Randy) mailed one across the country for me to use for the rest of my trip.
That all being said, my symptoms were different. When it did start, the bike would run like a top! When it didn't start...well, that was really it. It would crank, but not ever run. On some random attempt, it'd fire right up and run perfectly until I shut it down 150 miles later for fuel. The timing light helped me identify that on the non-start occasions, the ignitor was choosing to start the timing at 180* off.
I read through this thread and the only thing I could come up with that hasn't already been covered is spark plugs. Hold on, hold on...before this is dismissed right away (as the cleaning of the plugs has been discussed)...I had an odd issue with another Yamaha engine. Had a Yamaha SX230 jet boat with twin marinized R1 engines. Ran just great! Good lord that thing was fast! As I was getting up to speed on the YamahaJetBoaters forum, I kept seeing this recurring response to just about ANY engine related issues. The collective would jump in and bark, "CHANGE the spark plugs!" Most of the seasoned forum members even kept a spare set of 8 on board. Huh? I mean, what can go wrong with a spark plug? About 6 months later, i was buzzing across Lake Piru and my starboard engine started cutting out...this manifested it self with sputtering, lurching and a hard pull to the right. I limped it back to shore and home. I changed the spark plugs and problem SOLVED! Apparently there's a fine wire inside the Irridium plugs that breaks...sometimes the wire will touch...sometimes there's a gap. With essentially a second gap in the plug, there isn't much left over for the intended spark gap. I asked my brother if the R1 forum talked about this at all being as we were using the same engine. Nope. He'd never heard of such a thing.
With as much effort, frustration and down-time already involved with this problem, plugs can be changed out cheaply and easily and that can be eliminated along with the other systems already checked off the list. If there's a spare ignitor lying around that you could even just temporarily swap in, that could be eliminated as well.
Best of luck...these can be VERY frustrating!
I worked my butt off on a former member's FJ. It would start but just didn't want to run well. I went through the carbs several times and couldn't find anything. I finally gave up. A few days later he called me to say he replaced the plugs and it was running like a top!
Thanks for all the input.
I broke off one of the kill switch wires putting it back together, arrrg! Another part coming off the parts bike. Completely dismantled switch and cleaned all the contacts. replaced the whole handlebar harness. no change
I did replace all the plugs with new. no change
Is he ignitor that square thing underneath the fairing? worth a try since I had to remove the fairing to replace the right handlebar harness.
I will need to get a timing light to check the timing.
Do yamaha dealers still have the ability to test IC box?
Fix the Run/stop switch wire :).
I think the FJ 1100 TCI box is located back by the battery? It is in a potentially corrosive area for the connectors.
Timing light is handy to check timing and if nothing else to see if you have a spark signal. Borrow one or check used tool places. I see them at yard sales occasionally. Electronic ones are the best of the group. They are not in high demand anymore with the newer cars, lot of them sitting in tool box's.
George
Try Harbor Freight $19.99
http://www.harborfreight.com/xenon-timing-light-3343.html (http://www.harborfreight.com/xenon-timing-light-3343.html)
HARBOR FREIGHT STORE
MINNEAPOLIS, MN #00137
725 45TH AVE NE
MINNEAPOLIS,MN 55421
763-571-9390
Maybe I misread the previous replies so please don't kill me, has the cam timing been checked?. I am assuming it ran well prior to this problem.