Hi all,
Well, I'm half way through an epic trip through Virginia, to Memphis and now I'm in Chattanooga, and headed to Asheville in the morning. The FJ has been running fine until this morning.
It is intermittently cutting off and dying at idle. It'll then start right up and if I keep it revved up, it will run and then runs fine at highway speed,( although I think it sputtered a couple of times at speed) It will go back to idling just fine and running well like nothing ever happened, then all of a sudden it will die at idle--just drops off and dies.
I ran sea foam through two tank fulls since it started acting up this morning.
I also stopped at an Autozone parts store and checked the battery--12.8 V off. 13.1 V at idle and 13.8 V at 3-4000 RPM.
I installed a new fuel filter in Chattanooga this afternoon but I'm still getting the issue.
I changed the fuel pump about 1500 miles ago. Carbs have been balanced, and new plugs installed this spring.
Does anyone have any ideas to what is causing this drop off to dead at idle?
Thanks
Mark M
It dying suddenly and only at idle does not sound like a fuel issue. Air and Fire (spark) are the two possibilities left. Check the air filter, it is easy to check and will cost nothing. If the filter seems fine then you have an electrical/ignition issue.
Quote from: FJmonkey on July 10, 2015, 08:23:50 PM
It dying suddenly and only at idle does not sound like a fuel issue. Air and Fire (spark) are the two possibilities left. Check the air filter, it is easy to check and will cost nothing. If the filter seems fine then you have an electrical/ignition issue.
I'm betting electrical... have you cycled the kill switch? Sounds like a vibration inducted "kill" signal is most likely cause.
Frank
I am going to agree with Frank..... Sounds electrical.
I checked my voltage with a warm engine. 13v @ 1100 rpms and 14.5v @ 2000 rpms and holds steady all the way up the rev range.
The Haynes manual states with an unloaded engine, rpm at 5000 should be 14.2v-14.8v. Loaded engine 14v @ 5000 rpm.
Could be a battery or charging issue.
Fred
Possibly a bad coil?
This sound a bit like Capn Ron's ignition problem he had on The Great Adventure a few years ago.
Ron, care to chime in?
Ed
This also sounds like the gremlin that Erich V had with his '84 on our way up to Willits in 2010.
It ended up that his kill-switch was the issue.
Corrosion, or faulty connection here will give you a bunch of headaches. :negative:
Replace the spark plugs before you do anything major. Not uncommon for plugs to act up and cause bad running at low revs.
Also a cheap place to start trouble shooting. May not be the problem but it's a good place to start.
Regards, Pete. :empathy3:
Thanks for all the quick responses. I'm going to check my air filter and cycle the kill switch then head out to Asheville. If it continues, I'll try to service the kill switch. I'll keep checking this site through the day.
thanks guys!
Quote from: oldktmdude on July 11, 2015, 02:00:41 AM
Replace the spark plugs before you do anything major. Not uncommon for plugs to act up and cause bad running at low revs.
Also a cheap place to start trouble shooting. May not be the problem but it's a good place to start.
Regards, Pete. :empathy3:
+1 on the plugs. I was taught early on (and relearned the lesson when I've ignored it) that spark plugs are "consumables" for motorcycle engines. I've had several "ignition", "electrical", or even "fuel" issues cleared up with a new set of plugs.
Good old "basic" NGK's - no need to spend a lot of $$$ on platinum or multiple this or that.
Of course, if that doesn't work - try draining the float bowls - you may have picked up some water in a bad tank of gas.
Thanks for he input. Monkey Mark, I checked my air filter first thing this morning. No problem there but definitely was worth looking into.
I changed the plugs with a new set of NGK's this spring. Found and fixed a bad wire from the generator a few weeks ago also...thought I had my problems licked. Oh well, I'm still suspicious of my kill switch and have never service it--I'm hesitant to open a can of worms if I service it in the parking lot, never have been in the switch.
I turned the idle up this morning to mask the problem, but it's still there--it wants to cut out every once in a while when I'm at idle--once in a great while at speed.
I've got my old (functioning) fuel pump being shipped to me when I get to Charlottesville , Va on Monday afternoon. I'm guessing it's electrical with the way it just cuts off and the input from the FJ brethren but, I'll eliminate my the fuel supply theory when I get the old fuel pump re- installed.
That said, we made Asheville today and are headed to Blacksburg VA via the Blue Ridge parkway tomorrow. It's beautiful country. You folks in Tennessee, NC, and Virginia are very lucky. I'll be posting a trip report in the next few weeks.
Again, thanks for the input and advice. It helps!!
(http://fjowners.com/gallery/9/3861_11_07_15_4_33_08.jpeg)
Hey Mark, sorry to hear you're having problems on your trip. Intermittent electrical problems are maddening.
I agree with the others re: stop/run switch on the handle bar....but (what I found) it could be anywhere in that circuit, not necessarily the switch itself. This circuit (which runs through the run/stop switch) supplies the 12v power to your ignightor box. The start of the circuit is the fuse box, through the key switch, through the run/stop switch and then down to the ignightor.
I checked the wiring diagram for your '89 and you have a red wire/white stripe that supplies power to your ignightor. Try running a temporary jumper wire from the + side of your battery or if your worried about fuse protection, run the jumper from a switched side of the fuse block....skin back the original wire's insulation and terminate this jumper wire on the red/white stripe wire about 2" from the plug at the ignightor.
Could it be a bad ground? It could. The same can be done on the (negative) grounding side. Run a jumper from the - side of the battery to the black wire at the plug. The black wires on the FJ are always the grounded conductor.
This will assure you that your ignition is getting a full 12 volts with no interruption or guessing.
Hope this helps. Pat
Try this. It's only 6 inches of wire, real cheap an easy. It's the red one (yes, I know it should be black) from the negative terminal to frame.
(http://i285.photobucket.com/albums/ll41/JPaganel/Vehicles/FJ1200/20150710_180925_zpsbhjobgiz.jpg) (http://s285.photobucket.com/user/JPaganel/media/Vehicles/FJ1200/20150710_180925_zpsbhjobgiz.jpg.html)
This cured intermittent no-starts and weak spark by providing a solid ground to battery.
I was just in Deals Gap and hat 2-3 occasions where my bike died and happen when i was rolling out...I'm going to watch this thread closely...I thought my problem was due to the monsoons i got caught in.
We made it back to the truck yesterday safe and sound. Aside from the bike intermittently dropping off and dying at idle, it ran perfectly. I'm going to investigate the issue when I get back home. I'll be checking the kill switch first and then other connections including grounds. I've got to learn more about the ignitor and how to test it. Also how to test the coils.. ??
On the coils all I have is the spec's.
Primary side (low voltage side) 2.7 ohms +- 10%
Secondary side (high voltage side, plug side) 12K +- 20% Measured from plug wire to plug wire not plug wire to ground.
Spark Plug caps 10k +-10% Plug caps are resistive. RPM has these.
Plug wires are solid core (non resistive). I replaced mine with over the counter wires from NAPA.
Min spark 6mm (.24)
Glad it held up for the ride. :good2:
George
I finally got some time today to look into the issue and after some poking around, found 2 possible causes.
1.) This picture is the connector from the (key) ignition switch. It was badly corroded and the plug housing was melted. I replaced the melted plugs with blade connectors, crimped, soldered and heat shrink tubed.
(http://fjowners.com/gallery/9/3861_26_07_15_6_20_59_0.jpeg)
2.) While changing the oil and installing an RPM oil filter adapter, I found the kickstand switch wire crimped and showing wire.
(http://fjowners.com/gallery/9/3861_26_07_15_6_20_59_1.jpeg)
I also serviced the kill switch. It looked OK, but I polished up the contacts, hit it with contact cleaner, di-electric grease and reassembled.
The charging system seemed to check out fine, with the battery at 13.3 volts sitting, 14.9 volts running at 3000 rpm.
As for the ignition, the pick up coil resistance was within spec at 174 ohms.
The ignition coils both came in a hair low at 2.3 ohms with the factory spec at 2.4 -3.0 ohms. I don't know if this .1 ohms low reading is an issue. Also, I didn't check the resistance of the plug wires....
To Jpaganel, thanks, I do have a jumper from the negative terminal on my battery to the bolt that holds the fuel tank as a second ground, but thanks--it definitely could be a ground issue. And your ground assembly looks better than my negative jumper to the tank bolt --nice job and thanks for the picture.
Pat, thanks for the great idea. If I continue to have this problem, your suggestion about jumping directly to the igniter is my next move. The clutch and kickstand switches have not been taken apart yet. Jumping directly to the igniter box would by pass those. BTW, Does anyone know if the clutch and kickstand switches can be taken apart and cleaned??
I'm hopeful that the melted connector, the kill switch, or the crimped kickstand wire was the source of my problem. We've got an 800 mile trip to the north shore of the St. Lawrence Seaway coming up soon, so it should be a good test.
For the sake of closing this thread with a conclusion, it seems that my problem was indeed an electrical issue as detailed in the prior post. I put 900 miles on this past week with no stalling issues.
Thanks to all who contributed advice in my time of need.
Very good Mark! :good:
After finding the melted connector at the ignition I thought I had solved my problem and put 1000 miles on with no issues. The problem has returned. The bike dies at idle usually when coming to a stop. I did notice that the clock goes out when the bike dies. It usually will start right back up like noting ever happened, but occasionally it remains dead for a few seconds--while it is dead the clock is out--when the clock comes back on the bike will turn over and start. It runs perfectly when it's running.
I'm going to strip the fairing off it this weekend and start looking for loose connectors or frayed wires.
Any suggestions on where to start looking? What would kill the ignition and kill the clock??
Quote from: markmartin on September 02, 2015, 07:41:06 AM
Any suggestions on where to start looking? What would kill the ignition and kill the clock??
Grounds.
Bad grounds are the bane of any older vehicle, and doubly so of an older bike.
Check the main ground wire, the negative from battery. It bolts to the frame down in the bowels, under the carbs and the heatshield. The lug can corrode and give you bad ground. Shine that bastard up.
Quote from: markmartin on September 02, 2015, 07:41:06 AM
After finding the melted connector at the ignition I thought I had solved my problem and put 1000 miles on with no issues. The problem has returned. The bike dies at idle usually when coming to a stop. I did notice that the clock goes out when the bike dies. It usually will start right back up like noting ever happened, but occasionally it remains dead for a few seconds--while it is dead the clock is out--when the clock comes back on the bike will turn over and start. It runs perfectly when it's running.
I'm going to strip the fairing off it this weekend and start looking for loose connectors or frayed wires.
Any suggestions on where to start looking? What would kill the ignition and kill the clock??
Chances are when replacing the connector you have disturbed the dodgy wire and brought it back to life, for a while! You will probably find the tacho is dying as well when the motor cuts out.
Intermittent electrical problems can be a fair bastard to track down, for just that reason, they're intermittent and when you're checking continuity, you have no idea what state it's in at that moment.
If you can get it to idle and with as much access as possible (tank and seat off at least) start prodding and pulling the wiring loom, anywhere and everywhere. If you have a poor connection, this should cause it to act up and help locate the general area. Start with the most obvious, the battery leads.
If you can't get it to start and idle, do the same thing but with a test light and illuminating continuity tester. Multimeters are not the best tool for this job, it's too easy to miss the flicker of the screen.
This is a methodical process of elimination, not a hit and miss affair and will eventually home in on the problem.
The worst one I have encountered in a long time was on my own bike a while back, only happened at road speed, so couldn't be duplicated in the garage.
Turned out to be an unsupported wire running behind the battery box, with an in-line fuse, had an internal break and no external clues. The weight of the fuse holder was blowing around in the wind as I got up to speed, making and breaking the connection rapidly, as soon as I slowed and the wire stopped blowing around, it was fine again.
Let's hope it is something simple and easily found. From your description, it certainly sounds like a dodgy connection.
Good luck.
Noel
Forgot to mention, test lights with a hardened, surgically sharp tip make any tracing job a lot easier, That is sharp as in draws blood when you press it on your finger in the shop to see how point it is. :biggrin:
You can also poke through insulation at various points along a wire.
(http://www.carid.com/ic/autoloc/garage-accessories/auttslight_8.jpg)
Update: I stripped the fairing off and expected every wire, connector, and fuse and cleaned and di-electric greased every connector. I did get to the main ground connection, and it looked great but I cleaned and brushed it for good measure and , as suggested, shined that bastard up. I didn't find anything definitive, however I did find a couple of suspicious pinched and kinked wires and a couple of half blown/discolored fuses on my auxiliary light and auxiliary heated jacket harnesses.
The good news is that I've put on about 200 miles and the problem of cutting out at idle is gone, hopefully for good this time.
Quote from: ribbert on September 02, 2015, 10:24:48 AM
Forgot to mention, test lights with a hardened, surgically sharp tip make any tracing job a lot easier, That is sharp as in draws blood when you press it on your finger in the shop to see how point it is. :biggrin:
You can also poke through insulation at various points along a wire.
(http://www.carid.com/ic/autoloc/garage-accessories/auttslight_8.jpg)
I'm glad to see that in not the only one to have a blood letting session with a test light. :pardon:
I'd like to add to this discussion even though it may be fixed, someone else reading this thread may find it helpful.
I had an FJ1100, 1984 model that would intermittently stall or run badly.
After many different options tried, I eventually discovered that the '84 FJ1100 had a rev limiter fitted to the dash. This limiter was sending a signal to the cdi, which was shutting the spark to 1 & 4 thinking that the bike was over revving. The solution was to cut the wire that sent the signal from the dash to the cdi.