As I am waiting on some misc. parts from RPM (my bad in not ordering them sooner). I decided to take the day and do the coil relay mod. Haven't fired up the bike yet but it looks good. I use to think the coil relay mod wasn't really needed but after doing a lot of upgrading reducing the load on the alternator I come to realize that the coil mod can certainly do no harm and IMO the stock FJ electrical system is not the best especially after 20 to 30 years of wear and corrosion of switch's, contacts and connectors. Anyhow that was part of today's work on the FJ.
(http://fjowners.com/gallery/8/1651_07_04_15_7_10_32.jpeg)
(http://fjowners.com/gallery/8/1651_07_04_15_7_15_25.jpeg)
Here is the "how to" in the Files section. http://www.fjowners.com/index.php?topic=1755.0 (http://www.fjowners.com/index.php?topic=1755.0)
George
Very clean installation. Dave
Thanks. Around a year ago I had a member contact me about doing his and I had never done it so I wasn't to much help. Hard to explain wiring. The wires look complex but in reality it is real simple now that I have done it. The original connectors are still in place and I could put it back to original by just unplugging the spade connectors and plugging the original connector back up. Would take longer to remove the tank than to do the job.
My calculations show that the coils max amp draw would about 5.5 amps so I run it from a 10 amp fused line. I used what I had on hand but if I were to buy a relay I would try to buy a waterproof relay just because. http://easternbeaver.com/Main/Elec__Products/Relays/relays.html (http://easternbeaver.com/Main/Elec__Products/Relays/relays.html) ?
Also if anyone is just starting relay mods they might want to consider "Mini relays". http://easternbeaver.com/Main/Elec__Products/Relays/relays.html (http://easternbeaver.com/Main/Elec__Products/Relays/relays.html)
If you use the mini relays I might suggest you order 1 extra for a spare as they are not to available at the local auto part stores. That's a "Con" but they are small and if you plan on heated grips, horn, running lights, headlight relay mod then they can add up to a lot of mounting space.
Other sources
http://www.cycleterminal.com/index.html (http://www.cycleterminal.com/index.html)
George
nice job :good2:
It really made a difference for me when starting a hot FJ.
Nice job george!
I haven't done this to mine yet.
It might be on my list. I have some spare relays, and an extra slot in my aux fuse panel. :good:
Thanks Alan. If done properly I don't see a down side to doing the mod. You can always plug the original FJ connectors back in and go back to stock.
George
Today I did a quality control and checked if everything was ready to fire up after the engine overhaul. Installed the filter and oil then I cycled the engine thought with the plugs out and aux fuel tank hooked up until some oil started showing up at the oil port on the right side of the head then installed the plugs.
She coughed on the 2nd stab and fired up on the 3rd stab nice as you please. Did a quick carb sync. and voltage check of the coil relay mod. while the engine was warming up.
Ignition on, not running: 12.97 volts (Almost new Lithium battery)
Voltage at the coils not running: 12.92 volts (minimal voltage drop)
Voltage at the coils running: 13.55 (voltage increase from the regulator. This could be a concern if voltage go's over 15+ volts ?)
I am pleased with the mod. Considering a 10 amp 15 volt limiting circuit as a safety factor to protect the DCI.? Something to think about anyhow.
I can't say how much it helped because of the new rings, head work etc. all I can say is that it fires right up now (has compression and doesn't smoke :dance: :dance: :drinks:).
George
Check the specs on your lithium battery re: maximum charging voltage, then adjust your Transpo accordingly.
The dedicated circuit on the coil relay will see *close* to what your battery sees in the way of running voltage.
Don't worry about your coils....worry about the charging voltage to your battery.
Congrats George, very few on this forum have ever done what you just did on your engine...including me.
Your decades of service in our Air Force is reflected in your skills. Someone has got to keep those birds in the air and it sure as hell is not the pilots.
Quote from: movenon on April 13, 2015, 07:33:11 PM
all I can say is that it fires right up now (has compression and doesn't smoke :dance: :dance: :drinks:).
George
Great work George... Inspirational to say the least.
Frank
Congratulations.
Now go out and ride that thing :-)
Quote from: Pat Conlon on April 13, 2015, 08:43:46 PM
Check the specs on your lithium battery re: maximum charging voltage, then adjust your Transpo accordingly.
The dedicated circuit on the coil relay will see *close* to what your battery sees in the way of running voltage.
Don't worry about your coils....worry about the charging voltage to your battery.
Congrats George, very few on this forum have ever done what you just did on your engine...including me.
Your decades of service in our Air Force is reflected in your skills. Someone has got to keep those birds in the air and it sure as hell is not the pilots.
Thanks, I will check the charging spec's for the battery and adjust the regulator accordingly. Thanks Pat.
I am not to concerned about the coils although we need them, it is the other half of the circuit that can get expensive. I am thinking that the voltage going into the coils feeds out into the DCI (orange and grey wires). My thought is that the DCI (the orange and grey wires) are the trigger wires. The DCI grounds the coils to fire them? Probably over thinking it. I know that no one else has ever reported an issue. Another reason to have a voltmeter permanently installed on the bike. Nothing like knowing.
On the overhaul a lot of others have done the same and much more. I spent a lot of time digging through all the old posts here and on the UK forum. Most of it is common sense. The information here by you and others is invaluable. The "how to" is easy but most of that information is in a perfect world on a new machine. The manual will not tell you how to deal with a stuck cylinder because of 30 years of corrosion, the best way to get the pistons back into there holes, or that if you do it with the engine in the frame that will will need to pull the sump, or alternate ways to measure something in a garage setting. That's where the forum shines.
An example valve guide wear. I have read "it feels good" or "not to loose" most of us at home don't have the correct gages. As the world isn't perfect this is the way I checked the my guides. And yes I know about round holes and oblong holes. Scott is going to kill me. :lol:
New installed EX guide spec. ...................... .2165-.2170
MAX guide inside diameter spec .................. .219 in
Buy a 7/32 rod (cheap off e bay) the rod is .2188 in If that rod go's down the guide hole, guess what. You are out of limits or damn close.
My rod will not go in the hole. Good.
Now I chuck up the rod in a drill press and start turning it down with fine sand paper and keep going until it barely fits in the EX guide.
Measure that with a digital caliper. Oh, I am at .2176 So I say good enough. Not new but OK..
Now I have a closer idea than "it feels good" (and it did feel good).
Product plug: Buy RPM's valve stem seals... :good2:
Thanks to you and the others Pat for all the information in this site.
George
very nice
Awesome George, glad to see your are getting things sorted and something you can be proud of and enjoy.
Quote from: movenon on April 13, 2015, 11:02:13 PM
I am not to concerned about the coils although we need them, it is the other half of the circuit that can get expensive. I am thinking that the voltage going into the coils feeds out into the DCI (orange and grey wires). My thought is that the DCI (the orange and grey wires) are the trigger wires. The DCI grounds the coils to fire them? Probably over thinking it. I know that no one else has ever reported an issue. Another reason to have a voltmeter permanently installed on the bike. Nothing like knowing.
The way I understand ignitions is the orange and grey wires coming from the pickup(s) on the crank rotor tell the ignition which coil needs to be "fired."
The ignition fires the coil by interrupting the ground side of the coil circuit (up until this point, current has been flowing through the coil charging it up since the last firing). When the ground is gone, current stops flowing and the coil discharges through the spark plug.
DISCLAIMER: I've been know to be wrong on many occasions.
All right George, back on the road again.
Good work. :good2:
Like you I might be wrong. No expert for sure but this is how I see it. Please forgive my explanation of the coil wiring.
Primary side (low voltage side):
Both coils are hot with 12-15 volts anytime the key switch is on via the 2 Red/White striped wires (one to each coil). There is no switching or signal on that leg of the coils, just voltage in the coils standing by waiting for a signal. That signal has to be ground to complete the circuit to charge/fire the secondary High voltage side (plug wires)
Each coil has one signal wire going to the DCI. One coil #1 Orange and coil #2 Grey. These are the control (switch) wires. Remember the other leg of the primary (low voltage) is hot with 12-15 volts anytime the ignition switch on.
The Secondary (high voltage) side:
Each coil has 2 legs (plug wires) on the secondary side.
Coil #1 has one wire to plug #1 and the other to plug #4 Both plugs fire at the same time. One spark is obviously is wasted, not needed but that is OK. Wasted Spark system.
Coil #2 has one wire going to plug #2 and the other leg to plug #3.
That way the DCI's work load is cut. Doesn't have to fire 1,2,3,4 in some sequence, instead it fires 2 plugs at a time knowing that only one cylinder will be at TDC with fuel in it ready to light off.
I know you are already up to speed on this hooligan. I was trying to add knowledge to others that might read this. And I hope it isn't misinformation.
Each coil is just a transformer with 4 wires (2 in and 2 out).
Example coil #1 input Red/white striped wire (ignition switched hot 12-15volts) and Orange wire going to the DCI.
#1 output 2 wires (plug wires) going to cylinder 1 and 4
The Orange wire is the control. It has to see ground to complete the primary circuit. That timing is in the DCI which gets information from the pick up at the crank as to when to ground or turn on that coil.
Coil #2 has the same wiring except the control wire is Grey.
When we do the coil relay mod you disconnect (unplug) the Red/White (ignition switched hot wire) on both coils. Replace that voltage to the coils via the new relay with a more direct route from the battery. You use one of the Red/White wires you disconnected (doesn't matter which one) that did go to the coils and that is what will trigger the new relay coil with the other relay coil leg going to ground.
Boring as hell to read about wiring :scratch_one-s_head: The short is that the coil (transformers) have to be switched on and off. Either you switch the voltage input side or the ground side. As the input to the coils are always hot with the ignition switch on it has to be a ground side switch and that circuit is in the DCI. ?
IMO cleaning up the mounting points for the coil doesn't do anything as the coils are insulated from ground. But cleaning the spade connectors hooking up the coils should be a periodical thing to clean. They are up front and subject to some small degree to wet conditions. Don't point any magic wands or hose's up into the fairing area. The Grey signal wire on coil #2 also feeds the tach I think. If I had an erratic tach that is the first connections I would check.
George
Quote from: Mark Olson on April 14, 2015, 09:14:07 PM
All right George, back on the road again.
Good work. :good2:
How about you? What I did was nothing compaired to you Mark. I am taking a day or two here because of bad weather to do a few minor things that I put off as "someday" or "next time" or "when I get time" to do. And there is a new tube of Semi-Chrome over there........... :lol:
George
Quote from: movenon on April 14, 2015, 09:48:12 PM
Quote from: Mark Olson on April 14, 2015, 09:14:07 PM
All right George, back on the road again.
Good work. :good2:
How about you? What I did was nothing compaired to you Mark. I am taking a day or two here because of bad weather to do a few minor things that I put off as "someday" or "next time" or "when I get time" to do. And there is a new tube of Semi-Chrome over there........... :lol:
George
Well, engine is at rpm getting new trans gears, shift kit , valve adjust ,and general once over. I had planned to do it myself but wound up with no time ..the rest of my list I am progressing well and my fj will be close to factory fresh..I still have a ton of polishing to do and still looking for a perfect lower cowling .
Quote from: Mark Olson on April 14, 2015, 10:05:46 PM
Well, engine is at rpm getting new trans gears, shift kit , valve adjust ,and general once over. I had planned to do it myself but wound up with no time ..the rest of my list I am progressing well and my fj will be close to factory fresh..I still have a ton of polishing to do and still looking for a perfect lower cowling .
Check your PM Mark...
Quote from: FJmonkey on April 14, 2015, 10:14:21 PM
Quote from: Mark Olson on April 14, 2015, 10:05:46 PM
Well, engine is at rpm getting new trans gears, shift kit , valve adjust ,and general once over. I had planned to do it myself but wound up with no time ..the rest of my list I am progressing well and my fj will be close to factory fresh..I still have a ton of polishing to do and still looking for a perfect lower cowling .
Check your PM Mark...
Got it, now check yours.
Quote from: movenon on April 14, 2015, 09:41:17 PM
IMO cleaning up the mounting points for the coil doesn't do anything as the coils are insulated from ground
Ill informed opinion maybe, but I think the type of coil we have (iron core) actually requires the core to be grounded or stray currents will develop and f'em up somehow. This is mag amp knowledge from the old days, but I think it is important for the iron core coils or transformers to have a good ground for the core itself. I'm not sure my jumpy tach was fixed by tis however... I did clean the whole situation up as best I could at the time.
Frank
Quote from: Flynt on April 14, 2015, 11:32:58 PM
Quote from: movenon on April 14, 2015, 09:41:17 PM
IMO cleaning up the mounting points for the coil doesn't do anything as the coils are insulated from ground
Ill informed opinion maybe, but I think the type of coil we have (iron core) actually requires the core to be grounded or stray currents will develop and f'em up somehow. This is mag amp knowledge from the old days, but I think it is important for the iron core coils or transformers to have a good ground for the core itself. I'm not sure my jumpy tach was fixed by tis however... I did clean the whole situation up as best I could at the time.
Frank
No I think you have a point on the core Frank but I don't know how much it effects the performance. From memory the core's function is mainly for heat dissipation (current rating of the transformer and to deal with eddy currents). But I am no electrical engineer. Going back to heat dissipation, cleaning the mounting points would help with that. Heat and vibration is a known killer of ignition coils.
I mentioned in the previous post that the Grey wire is tied to the tach.. In the early FJ's it looks like the orange wire is linked to the tach and in the later models they used the Grey wire. I actually don't think it matters which one they both would read the same pulses. Just an assumption.
The spade connectors in the FJ were state of the art back in 1984 but they are not very good at keeping the elements out. And they are relatively difficult sometimes to clean. Anyone that has a tach acting up should do the same as you clean that area up first.
George