Hello, Im a newbie to both the FJ and the Forum. I traded up to a FJ1200 from a 1989 Sportster.
I picked up this bike on Sunday. It had been sitting in a garage for 3 years (owner passed away) Started right up and runs incredibly tight for its age. On the way home is died. Bump started it, then imminent death.
Towed it home, replaced the battery yesterday, ran great for about an hour and then.... Well you know the story. D E A D !! My first thought was to check the stator (ouch $500.00) is there any other reason or location to look before I rob a bank??
Thanks in advance
Kris
Check the red alternator plug on the left side of the bike (Behind the side panel, Just follow the alternator wires.). It seems to be a common issue of it burning up. Easy place to start and can be repaired cheaply if that is indeed the problem.
Quote from: FJGiddyUpGirl on March 17, 2015, 12:41:25 PM
Hello, Im a newbie to both the FJ and the Forum. I traded up to a FJ1200 from a 1989 Sportster.
I picked up this bike on Sunday. It had been sitting in a garage for 3 years (owner passed away) Started right up and runs incredibly tight for its age. On the way home is died. Bump started it, then imminent death.
Towed it home, replaced the battery yesterday, ran great for about an hour and then.... Well you know the story. D E A D !! My first thought was to check the stator (ouch $500.00) is there any other reason or location to look before I rob a bank??
Thanks in advance
Kris
Welcome Kris. Hold on spending money until you do some more testing.. What makes you think it is the alternator ? How are you set up for area and tools to work on the bike ? What year is your FJ ? Where are you located approximately ? There might be another FJ owner near by that can help you. Could be as simple as fuel cap not venting. If it dies again, crack open the fuel cap and see if it starts.
George
Quote from: copper on March 17, 2015, 01:40:14 PM
Check the red alternator plug on the left side of the bike (Behind the side panel, Just follow the alternator wires.). It seems to be a common issue of it burning up. Easy place to start and can be repaired cheaply if that is indeed the problem.
This is what the connector looks like.
(http://fjowners.com/gallery/7/1651_30_04_14_9_21_26.jpeg)
Without more info it could also be the voltage regulator.
George
Kris - definately need to do a little troubleshooting and preventative maintenance before resorting to parts swapping.
One of the "free" harbor freight multimeters could save you a bundle here!
Check and clean battery connections and the alternator connector already mentioned. Odds are it is fried - you can cut out the bad connector and direct connect the wires with good quality butt connectors to remove that failure mode in the future, BUT you will have to cut wires if you need to remove the alternator in the future.
Is it charging at 2000 RPM or so? How many volts does it show across the battery terminals at 2000 - 3000 RPM?
Then, if it is not charging you can start troubleshooting the voltage reg, the rectifier (both built into the alternator on the FJ) and the condition of the brushes and the stator...
None of this is difficult, but does need to be done somewhat methodically.
Check and clean/repair the connections and get back with us what the voltage reads -- then someone can assist you with the next steps
Chris
oh - and welcome!
Welcome Kris, too bad you don't live closer or I could help you with your new FJ. I just picked up an '89 myself after owning an '86 for the last 18 years. Don't just look at the connector, pull it apart. Mine looked mostly normal till I cracked it open.
Looks good on the outside....
(http://fjowners.com/gallery/8/104_15_02_15_8_58_24_0.jpeg)
But melted on the inside...
(http://fjowners.com/gallery/8/medium_104_15_02_15_8_58_27_1.jpeg)
(http://fjowners.com/gallery/8/104_15_02_15_8_58_30_2.jpeg)
The fix is simple, cut the offending connector off and crimp on new spade connectors. Make sure you mate the connectors so you can't miss-connect them. Each side gets one each male and female connector. This helps if you ever need to pull them apart in the future.
Keep posting, we will help you get your FJ sorted out and running in the Kookaloo zone... Just in time for the West Coast Rally.
Now THAT's a good idea Markus, alternate male/female ends so as not to reverse the connection.
So simple. :good:
You guys know the reason that connector fails....right?
Overcharging
Quote from: Pat Conlon on March 17, 2015, 03:43:24 PM
Now THAT's a good idea Markus, alternate male/female ends so as not to reverse the connection.
So simple. :good:
You guys know the reason that connector fails....right?
Overcharging
FYI, that is a Randy RPM fix, just passing on the good info. Spending time with Randy and his sons at the shop can be a really good learning experience. Not to mention a great way to spend time wrenching on the FJ.
Quote from: FJmonkey on March 17, 2015, 05:01:53 PM
Quote from: Pat Conlon on March 17, 2015, 03:43:24 PM
Now THAT's a good idea Markus, alternate male/female ends so as not to reverse the connection.
So simple. :good:
You guys know the reason that connector fails....right?
Overcharging
FYI, that is a Randy RPM fix, just passing on the good info. Spending time with Randy and his sons at the shop can be a really good learning experience. Not to mention a great way to spend time wrenching on the FJ.
I don't understand this, is it so you can't push the plug together the wrong way?
Noel
Cut the melted red plug off (2 wire) and install spade connectors....alternate m/f so you don't plug the wrong spade together
Quote from: Pat Conlon on March 18, 2015, 09:55:05 AM
Cut the melted red plug off (2 wire) and install spade connectors....alternate m/f so you don't plug the wrong spade together
Exactly how I modded mine. You mix these wires up and there's hell to pay.
CraigO
+1 for the spade connector advise for replacement of the RED connector.
For electrical connector replacement and lighting mods. I have used Molex brand connectors, easily sourced from Radio Shack. They come in 2,4,6,9 and 12 pin versions.
Also I ordered this kit from Aerostitch. ALL the connectors in the kit are the 2 pin type, but there is 3 sizes.
http://www.aerostich.com/tools/electrical/tools-connectors/aerostich-92-piece-molex-connector-kit.html (http://www.aerostich.com/tools/electrical/tools-connectors/aerostich-92-piece-molex-connector-kit.html)
Fred
Quote from: FJmonkey on March 17, 2015, 05:01:53 PM
Quote from: Pat Conlon on March 17, 2015, 03:43:24 PM
Now THAT's a good idea Markus, alternate male/female ends so as not to reverse the connection.
So simple. :good:
You guys know the reason that connector fails....right?
Overcharging
FYI, that is a Randy RPM fix, just passing on the good info. Spending time with Randy and his sons at the shop can be a really good learning experience. Not to mention a great way to spend time wrenching on the FJ.
Aw, come on guys. It doesn't matter whether its male, female, gay, bi or transgender, the connector, like the thousands of other automotive electrical connectors in use and all the others on your bike, only goes together one way.
This deviation from accepted wiring standards is just setting up the mechanic or next owner for confusion, for no benefit.
You say it is to prevent incorrect connection, the plug already does that. It is addressing a problem that doesn't exist.
Find something that
needs fixing.
Noel
Apparently, Noel does not understand what we are talking about........
Red male alternator side to Red female Battery side. X ---> Y Red Wire
Brown female alternator side to Brown Male battery side. Y ---> X Brown Wire
Presents no confusion what so ever as X will not connect to X and Y will not connect to Y.
Red alternator side will not longer connect to Brown battery side X---X Red to Brown (No connect)
Brown alternator side will no longer connect to Red battery side Y---Y Brown to Red (No connect)
Speaking in electrical spade connecter terms that is.
When this goes bad, the connector itself melts and may not be reusable. Mine had melted enough to fuse the 2 halves together and the whole connector had to be cut out.
Some may choose to replace it with another 2-lead connector assembly while others (me) chose to use 2 separate single spade connections. Alternating the connector gender will prevent accidently swapping the wires. I don't recall if I actually did this, but the only time I disturbed this connection was to repair it so I don't see this being a big problem. The new connections have clear covers so I do inspect it for corrosion whenever I have the sidecover off.
Quote from: Pat Conlon on March 19, 2015, 10:18:20 AM
Apparently, Noel does not understand what we are talking about........
That is quite possible. I asked for an explanation a day earlier and no one responded.
I (and presumably others) could only interpret it as it read (and still reads)
Perhaps a photo for those of us that aren't too bright would make it easier to understand.
Noel
Quote from: copper on March 19, 2015, 10:32:33 AM
Red male alternator side to Red female Battery side. X ---> Y Red Wire
Brown female alternator side to Brown Male battery side. Y ---> X Brown Wire
Presents no confusion what so ever as X will not connect to X and Y will not connect to Y.
Red alternator side will not longer connect to Brown battery side X---X Red to Brown (No connect)
Brown alternator side will no longer connect to Red battery side Y---Y Brown to Red (No connect)
Speaking in electrical spade connecter terms that is.
I must be missing something here. If the terminals are housed in a connector block, 2 males one side and 2 females the other and the block only goes together one way, how do you risk connecting them incorrectly?
We may well be talking about different things but until it is explained in such a way that those who haven't done this mod understand, I can only take it as it reads.
I understand how spade connectors work.
Noel
Perhaps this will help... Maybe not...
The Male Female relationship is swapped for the Red and Orange (Brown) wires. So they can only connect properly, even if you are color blind....
(http://fjowners.com/gallery/8/104_19_03_15_3_50_12.jpeg)
Quote from: FJmonkey on March 19, 2015, 04:53:33 PM
Perhaps this will help... Maybe not...
The Male Female relationship is swapped for the Red and Orange (Brown) wires. So they can only connect properly, even if you are color blind....
(http://fjowners.com/gallery/8/104_19_03_15_3_50_12.jpeg)
Thanks Mark. It's funny, when describing a procedure that is clear in your mind, it is easy to gloss over the obvious (to you) steps - like eliminating the connector block!
My only comment on this would be to make sure the exposed male end is not live so when you disconnect them and it flops onto the frame...........
Thanks again Mark for the explanation.
Noel
Happy to help Noel, the spade connectors are insulated (Male and Female) so any contact of HOT conductor contact is minimized. I guess a picture can be worth a 1,000 words...
Anyway, I hope we get to the root cause and help our new FJowner fix the power problem they are having...
Quote from: FJmonkey on March 17, 2015, 03:23:21 PM
......The fix is simple, cut the offending connector off and crimp on new spade connectors. Make sure you mate the connectors so you can't miss-connect them. Each side gets one each male and female connector. This helps if you ever need to pull them apart in the future.
Quote from: ribbert on March 19, 2015, 05:42:11 PM
Thanks Mark. It's funny, when describing a procedure that is clear in your mind, it is easy to gloss over the obvious (to you) steps - like eliminating the connector block!
Noel, nice try....Mark did not gloss over shit. You just flat did not read....like when Mark wrote "cut off the offending connector..."
Yea, Mark you should have been more clear....stop glossing over stuff... :dash2:
Quote from: Pat Conlon on March 19, 2015, 10:41:20 PM
Noel, nice try....Mark did not gloss over shit. You just flat did not read....like when Mark wrote "cut off the offending connector..."
Yea, Mark you should have been more clear....stop glossing over stuff... :dash2:
Pat, nice try.... as a tradesman it never occurred to me that "cutting off the offending connector" would not automatically infer that you replaced the damaged part with a new one, even if not specifically mentioned, in that application.
"Crimp on new spade connectors" I took as being the ones inside the block.
It never crossed my mind that you would dispense with the connector block, that being the part that was glossed over. Silly me. I guess my brain is just wired differently.
As for the statement below:
Quote from: ribbert on March 19, 2015, 05:42:11 PM
Thanks Mark. It's funny, when describing a procedure that is clear in your mind, it is easy to gloss over the obvious (to you) steps - like eliminating the connector block!
It was just a general comment on the difficulty of putting into words a procedure that is crystal clear in your own mind but being read by someone for whom it isn't. It was not directed at Mark personally. You know, "you" as in "you know ......."
I think Mark got it, he certainly didn't seem offended, as you did on his behalf.
I can't believe I'm even responding to this. The only part I really wanted to clarify was that I was not having a go at Mark,
you have just chosen to read it that way.
Hope you have a better day tomorrow Pat and find something worth talking about. :biggrin:
Noel
Unfortunately it looks like the OP hasn't checked back in (or at least hasn't signed in) since the third reply or so...
Hope it was a quick fix and he's out kookalooing!
Quote from: fj1289 on March 20, 2015, 01:48:21 PM
Unfortunately it looks like the OP hasn't checked back in (or at least hasn't signed in) since the third reply or so...
Hope it was a quick fix and she's out kookalooing!
Fixed it for you...
Might have got scared off by the posts.
Anytime I have a connector apart or replaced on a motorcycle it doesn't go back together without first applying some dielectric grease. Not since the big "rectifryer" incident of 2007.
(http://i1296.photobucket.com/albums/ag17/Charliebrm/Forum%20images/Regulator_plug_zpsmtartrvy.jpg) (http://s1296.photobucket.com/user/Charliebrm/media/Forum%20images/Regulator_plug_zpsmtartrvy.jpg.html)
I hope Noel has a better day tomorrow too.
Quote from: fj johnnie on March 21, 2015, 10:05:13 PM
I hope Noel has a better day tomorrow too.
How did you know?
Perfect riding day today, early Autumn with it's crisp mornings and moderate midday temperatures, clear blue skies and windless days, perfect riding down here. It is my favourite time of the year and my bike has just had a long overdue tune and general going over.
My wife an daughter however had volunteered me as announcer at a horse event. With only a corded microphone I was limited to a 2 metre radius from the PA for 9 hours standing in a permanent cloud of dust and down wind from the greasy BBQ that ran all day.
Yes, I hope I have a better day tomorrow too.
Noel
Quote from: ribbert on March 22, 2015, 08:02:54 AM
...9 hours standing in a permanent cloud of dust...
Nasal filters. Paper or foam? :unknown:
Quote from: rlucas on March 22, 2015, 09:54:56 AM
Quote from: ribbert on March 22, 2015, 08:02:54 AM
...9 hours standing in a permanent cloud of dust...
Nasal filters. Paper or foam? :unknown:
Don't get him started.
Holy cow gang!!! Thanks for all the awesome suggestions. The FJ and I are going to sit down today and have a conversation about her issues :good2: I will go through each part that ya'll suggested and I'll let you know what I find. I had her on a trickle charger so the battery should be full for accuracy. Changing out the front brakes today too.
Thanks again for all the direction.
Quote from: FJmonkey on March 17, 2015, 03:23:21 PM
Welcome Kris, too bad you don't live closer or I could help you with your new FJ. I just picked up an '89 myself after owning an '86 for the last 18 years. Don't just look at the connector, pull it apart. Mine looked mostly normal till I cracked it open.
Looks good on the outside....
(http://fjowners.com/gallery/8/104_15_02_15_8_58_24_0.jpeg)
But melted on the inside...
(http://fjowners.com/gallery/8/medium_104_15_02_15_8_58_27_1.jpeg)
(http://fjowners.com/gallery/8/104_15_02_15_8_58_30_2.jpeg)
The fix is simple, cut the offending connector off and crimp on new spade connectors. Make sure you mate the connectors so you can't miss-connect them. Each side gets one each male and female connector. This helps if you ever need to pull them apart in the future.
Keep posting, we will help you get your FJ sorted out and running in the Kookaloo zone... Just in time for the West Coast Rally.
Ok... here's what I have. Looks like they attempted to repair. Red wire was loose as hell and not really connected. Fixed that. Back to good. Now..... what about the above clip. The plastic is destroyed but the fittings look good ..
Looks can be deceiving. Did you ohm check while wiggling the wires? The male/female connectors could be ok but with that type damage, the crimp connection between the wire and terminal could be cooked.
Personally, I would change it, be done with it.
I am changing out the fried connector. As for the alt. positive. It fell right out of the fitting. I see the similarity in colors of the wires coming from the alternator so I'm going to do the reverse male / female trick so there is no chance of mixing them up later on.
Thanks for the help!!!
Good for you Kris. That way, you will never be in doubt as to the quality of the connections.
As much as I like to torment Noel, we all acknowledge that he is a very smart fellow. His suggestion about where you put that female connector is a good one. If I recall correctly, that red power wire is hot on the battery side of the connection, so put the shielded female connector on that side so you don't accidently ground it to the frame if or when you ever need to take the connection apart in the future.
Quote from: Pat Conlon on March 29, 2015, 05:23:50 PM
Good for you Kris. That way, you will never be in doubt as to the quality of the connections.
As much as I like to torment Noel, we all acknowledge that he is a very smart fellow. His suggestion about where you put that female connector is a good one. If I recall correctly, that red power wire is hot on the battery side of the connection, so put the shielded female connector on that side so you don't accidently ground it to the frame if or when you ever need to take the connection apart in the future.
Pat, both sides of the spade terminals are fully insulated in my picture, other than the connection opening. If the male spade connector is not insulated, then Noel is spot on with his recommendation. There is another good reason for full insulation on both terminals, they help hold them together as a second friction lock.
Mark, I know you used shielded m/f spade connectors, per your pict. Those are good...
Quote from: Pat Conlon on March 29, 2015, 07:41:13 PM
Mark, I know you used shielded m/f spade connectors, per your pict. Those are good...
I probably should not provide any information that diffuses your chances of tormenting Noel.... I ask for forgiveness... (http://i923.photobucket.com/albums/ad73/shmonkey1017/thmonkey1.jpg)
Quote from: FJmonkey on March 29, 2015, 06:29:45 PM
Pat, both sides of the spade terminals are fully insulated in my picture, other than the connection opening. If the male spade connector is not insulated, then Noel is spot on with his recommendation. There is another good reason for full insulation on both terminals, they help hold them together as a second friction lock.
Mark, yours may well be and that solves the problem, but insulated male terminals are not common and not what most folks have laying around.
As sure as the sun coming up tomorrow, people will do that mod with standard connectors.
And then there is the simple task of attaching them properly. Ha, easy you may say, well, clearly not for everyone. It is disturbingly common when disconnecting them to find the wire pulls out of the terminal with virtually no resistance. It is also common to find where the insulation is not held in the terminal that many of the strands are broken from movement, or the connectors themselves not a tight fit etc.
Almost all the old cars I work have had many owner fitted electrical add ons. Indicators, brake lights, fuel pumps, instruments, lights, alternators and so on, all done with spade connectors. The general standard of fitting of these simple little things is poor.
It is easy to assume when giving advice that the people taking it have your own skill level and common sense, they don't.
The other risk of spade terminals is that you might use them for some other purpose in the same vicinity and still end up with the risk of an incorrect connection. That's why every connector block on the bike, even if they all only have two wires, is a different shape.
Pedantic? Maybe, but there are many standard practices I was taught that are ingrained, one of them was to idiot proof wiring.
Noel
Alright. .... here's what I did. Now mind you I have minimal experience with a multimeter. I can figure out the logic of it.
Battery sitting is at 12
Started at 2000 rpm. 10
Disconnected from battery, not running, stator has a om of 500
Disconnected from battery, running, minimal z~.
Logic tells me that the volts should go up at 2000 rpm. And that the stator should be sending out something significant.
I think I need to open the stator and see if I can clean it up or rebuild it?
Any luck with your charging issue? I'm having the same problem, would love to know how this turned out.
Andrew
I have had the same issue. Battery died (new battery). Did research. Ordered and installed regulator from Randy at RPM. Shop recharged battery for me. Battery now in the bike.
Now I'm needing to know what the voltage should be at the terminals at idle and rpm. Anyone have some knowledge or a link to the info? Until then I'll keep searching.
Idle will be battery voltage and 14v, 28a @ 5K
Randy - RPM
Quote from: racerrad8 on August 29, 2015, 08:54:49 PM
Idle will be battery voltage and 14v, 28a @ 5K
Randy - RPM
Thanks Randy. Again, appreciate the help. I am going to have to recheck and run it for a bit. When I installed the battery and started it up, the voltage seemed to drop a bit when I went to 3k. If it's dropping, aside from the red connector issue, my charge system isn't doing it's job?
Dropped from what reading?
You should have the same voltage at both alternator wires when the bike is running and the should be 14V , and really up to almost 15 at 5k.
If you don't have the same voltage at both wires then something is wrong.
Randy - RPM
Quote from: racerrad8 on August 29, 2015, 09:21:30 PM
Dropped from what reading?
You should have the same voltage at both alternator wires when the bike is running and the should be 14V , and really up to almost 15 at 5k.
If you don't have the same voltage at both wires then something is wrong.
Randy - RPM
Just went out and rechecked. 12V at idle at the battery. Revved to 5k and still 12V.
Will check it at the alternator as well tomorrow. Thanks for the help Randy.
I checked voltage at the battery and each side of the connector. Today the reading was 11.4V everywhere, whether at the battery or connectors or at idle or 5k rpm. I replaced the connector with insulated spade connectors and no difference. The red connector was slightly melted and brittle so prudent to do it anyway.
So it's another season and I need to get out on the bike. Time to get the issue resolved.
New battery, new regulator, wiring issue per threads here replaced, 12V reading no matter what the rpm and less as bike runs. It's running off the battery.
So it sounds like a rectifier. What is the best replacement?
http://www.fjowners.com/index.php?topic=15432.0 (http://www.fjowners.com/index.php?topic=15432.0)
Download the PDF of the 1100 manual from this link.
PDF page 224 (service manual page 6-21) is the flow chart for troubleshooting the charging system.
Post up what you find at each step - there could be a couple items to check prior to spending $$ - such as the connector already discussed and cussed, the voltage "feedback" wire that lets the voltage reg know how much voltage it's putting out, and others I'm sure.
Quote from: fj1289 on May 16, 2016, 07:25:40 PM
http://www.fjowners.com/index.php?topic=15432.0 (http://www.fjowners.com/index.php?topic=15432.0)
Download the PDF of the 1100 manual from this link.
PDF page 224 (service manual page 6-21) is the flow chart for troubleshooting the charging system.
Post up what you find at each step - there could be a couple items to check prior to spending $$ - such as the connector already discussed and cussed, the voltage "feedback" wire that lets the voltage reg know how much voltage it's putting out, and others I'm sure.
Great info. Thanks. I just need to find the time again to pull it apart.
I found a reasonably priced replacement alternator on eBay. I just installed it. Voltage at battery with bike off is 12.25. Battery isn't fully charged off my charger. At idle I am getting 12.7 to 12.90 V. When revving, 14.6V no matter the rpm.
These numbers are better than the nothing that I was getting with the old unit. It's now charging.