Hey Guy's.
I've spent the last two afternoons trying to bleed my clutch.
At first the nipple was blocked and fluid was escaping between the hex and the bike.
Cleaned and cleared today and have bled and bled the line.
Followed Workshop Manual Procedure Correctly.
Have clear tube looped and other end in a container of fluid to prevent air re-entering.
I get some feel in the lever, only to lose all pressure completely on the next bleed.
I can't see any leaks anywhere so far and the rubber seal looks to be in good condition.
I need help.
Suggestions as I'm in remote Nth Aus and Mechanics are few and far between.
Thanks in advance.
Have you applied any teflon tape to the threads of of the bleeder? This prevents air from getting back in past the threads.
Thanks, I will give that a try tomorrow.
I have had my best luck back bleeding/feeding hydraulic clutches in the past.
I simply pop the cap off the master and use a large syringe to force fluid into the slave and up through the system. This will force the air up through the line and in most cases I have not had to finish bleed the system in the conventional manner.
When I do a conventional bleed on the clutch or brake I use a product called a "one man bleeder" which helps keep the project neat and tidy.
(http://contentinfo.autozone.com/znetcs/product-info/en/US/grn/25036/image/3/)
Quote from: the fan on March 12, 2015, 10:20:58 AM
(http://contentinfo.autozone.com/znetcs/product-info/en/US/grn/25036/image/3/)
I've got one of these doohickeys too. Great little tool for the brake and clutch bleeding arsenal.
Love the little magnet on it. Attaches nicely to the brake disc. At least ones on early model FJs.
http://www.fjowners.com/index.php?topic=9092.msg85973;topicseen#msg85973 (http://www.fjowners.com/index.php?topic=9092.msg85973;topicseen#msg85973)
This is what I use. The syringe costs less than $3 at Tractor Supply store- I'm not sure where you'd source one of these in AU.
The reference to tying the clutch lever to the bar overnight is a much debated topic, so use the search function if you'd like to catch up on the opinions of the effectiveness of this procedure.
:hi: I bled mine yesterday..the biting point was getting closer to the bars so took off the m/c cap and the fluid was dirty so connected up a bleeder hose ,I use a fish tank airpump hose nice and long an cheap to buy an its a nice tight fit on the bleed nipple,anyhoo I jus opened the bleed nipple enough to let the fluid come up out with a few pumps of the lever took 5 mins start to finish and Ive got a nice feel to the clutch now :good: yamaha seem to have loose threads on all their bleed screws even on the brakes as you say a couple of turns of ptfe tape to get a good seal :good:
sorry if this is the wrong place to ask,
is there a known mod to replace all that fluid BS with a cable?
Hardley ... :lol:
Ok ,, here we go again . Don't think , just do it.
Start with the bleeder open and squeeze lever slowly ..Now close bleeder and slowly release lever.
Repeat process until fluid begins to come out of bleeder in a steady stream. (this will break the air lock preventing traditional bleeding from working)
Now you can bleed in the normal manner .
Squeeze lever and open bleeder to let the air out. close bleeder and release lever.
Repeat until bubbles are gone .
Yes , use Teflon tape on the bleeder threads and use a jar with fluid in it to prevent air return.
There are plenty of other methods but with this one you will have a clutch again in the time it takes to smoke a cigarette.
1 word:
MityVac
When you squeeze and hold the lever whether the brake or clutch (with the bleeder valve open) fluid is pushed into the line. Closing the bleeder while the lever is still being held creates a small amount of vacuum which stops all the fluid from retreating back into the master cylinder when the lever is released. Each time this process is completed the amount of fluid in the line increases and the amount of air decreases. When the caliper has been overhauled and the line is completely empty the volume of air in the system compared to the volume of fluid moved by the master cylinder limits the the fluid which is held in the line. A MityVac works but isn't necessary, if you use Teflon tape only put it on the threads but you don't need the Teflon tape. The angled surface of the bleeder is what seals the opening. Twenty cycles is a good start. Keep working, don't worry about the drain hose until the first spit of fluid appears at the bleeder. When the amount of air coming out of the bleeder seems to be holding constant go drink something cold and relax for at least thirty minutes or wait till tomorrow. Start again and the fluid will clear all the bubbles of air with continued bleeding. The most valuable helper is a friend that will operate the bleeder or that you trust to keep the master cylinder from running dry and pushing more air into the line. Use the bleeder that is the highest as that is where the last pocket of air will hide. The jar with fluid helps to see when the fluid being released is free of air, close the bleeder valve every time the lever is released. The key to the operation is knowing that slow and tedious is normal.
The best bleeding "tool" I've found is patience. Don't force the air down to the bleeder, let it rise up to the master cylinder.
The success attributed to the "tie the lever to the bar overnight" is more a function of "overnight" than the position of the lever.
Quote from: ct7088 on March 12, 2015, 09:39:22 PM
When you squeeze and hold the lever whether the brake or clutch (with the bleeder valve open) fluid is pushed into the line. Closing the bleeder while the lever is still being held creates a small amount of vacuum which stops all the fluid from retreating back into the master cylinder when the lever is released. Each time this process is completed the amount of fluid in the line increases and the amount of air decreases. When the caliper has been overhauled and the line is completely empty the volume of air in the system compared to the volume of fluid moved by the master cylinder limits the the fluid which is held in the line. A MityVac works but isn't necessary, if you use Teflon tape only put it on the threads but you don't need the Teflon tape. The angled surface of the bleeder is what seals the opening. Twenty cycles is a good start. Keep working, don't worry about the drain hose until the first spit of fluid appears at the bleeder. When the amount of air coming out of the bleeder seems to be holding constant go drink something cold and relax for at least thirty minutes or wait till tomorrow. Start again and the fluid will clear all the bubbles of air with continued bleeding. The most valuable helper is a friend that will operate the bleeder or that you trust to keep the master cylinder from running dry and pushing more air into the line. Use the bleeder that is the highest as that is where the last pocket of air will hide. The jar with fluid helps to see when the fluid being released is free of air, close the bleeder valve every time the lever is released. The key to the operation is knowing that slow and tedious is normal.
Chris , nice explanation .
The reason we recommend a little tape on the bleeder threads is the angled surface of the bleeder will let air enter the hose you have attached to it and make it seem as the bubbles never go away.
One method I use to expedite the bleeding of air from the Clutch slave is to remove it (keep hyd line attached) and SLOWLY depress the piston inward with my thumb.
this does 2 things;
1-Decreases volume to be bled to minimum
2- forces any air up to the MC where it naturally wants to be
make sure MC is at a low level before you depress the piston, the level will rise. and make sure you have towels to catch any spillage, if you are not carefull you will make a mess.
worked well for me following a slave rebuild and I was having a hell of a time getting it right.
Scott
OK, so I think I have enough info to try again tomorrow.
One question I still have is, is it necessary to re-fit the master cylinder cap whilst doing all of this.
Or, can I leave it off and keep topping it up as I bleed the fluid through?
Leave the cap off, watch as you bleed, top off as required. Keep a can of brake cleaner close by and clean up all drips and spills ASAP.
Quote from: FJmonkey on March 13, 2015, 09:28:18 AM
..Keep a can of brake cleaner close by and clean up all drips and spills ASAP.
Brake cleaner? Careful, that usually has solvents in it that will soften and lift paint, and soften plastics. I know this for a fact.
http://www.fjowners.com/index.php?topic=13250.0 (http://www.fjowners.com/index.php?topic=13250.0)
Pat suggested a spray bottle of water, as this will neutralize the paint-damaging effect of any spilled or slopped brake fluid. You must act quickly, though.
Steve
Quote from: FJmonkey on March 13, 2015, 09:28:18 AM
Leave the cap off, watch as you bleed, top off as required. Keep a can of brake cleaner close by and clean up all drips and spills ASAP.
WTF? Brake Cleaner? Holy shit Mark, that will eat thru your paint quicker than the brake fluid...
A spray bottle of water will neutralize brake fluid.
I have not had any issues with paint but ABS is another story, but I keep as much covered to avoid needing to clean up any drips or spills.
:good2: +1 On having the spray bottle with water handy. It's safer than brake cleaner, and very effective in neutralizing hydraulic fluid (at least DOT 3 and 4, not sure about 5 or 5.1).
Oh and Benno, if it still isn't bleeding well for you, remove the clutch slave cylinder (it's only three bolts), and see if there is any sign of leakage around the seal. Pull the clutch lever a couple of times, and if you see any fluid seep out on a pull, that is your culprit right there. My friend, who has my old FJ, encountered this problem. In his case, whenever he pulled the clutch handle, hydraulic fluid would seep out past the seal. When he released the handle, most of the fluid would suck back under the seal. The seal was failing just enough to keep the clutch feeling mushy (and probably allow air into the system), but not enough to lose hydraulic fluid at a rate that would cause the tell tale signs of a leaky slave cylinder (paint/fairing damage).
Success, :good2:
She's back on the road ready for our dry season.
I now have a new issue, but will start a new post.
Thankyou all for the helpful advice.
Quote from: FJ_Hooligan on March 12, 2015, 09:51:44 PM
The best bleeding "tool" I've found is patience. Don't force the air down to the bleeder, let it rise up to the master cylinder.
The success attributed to the "tie the lever to the bar overnight" is more a function of "overnight" than the position of the lever.
** agreed.. I bled my clutch without even cracking the bleeder. Took me 15 mins tops. I just slowly pumped the handle while lightly taking on the clutch line and watched a steady stream of bubbles continue up into M/C until I gradually got more and more throw. Then let the rest work itself out as I rode it (if there was any left)
Close the bleed screw
Pump levet twice
Hold lever in
Open bleed screw
Let bubble flow into bottle
Close bleed screw
Pump lever twice
Hold lever in
Open bleed screw
Let bubbkes flow into bottle
Close bleed screw
Pump lever twice
Its twdious but only takes 5-10 minutes
All good advice - slowly is good! I just bled my clutch on the roadside, in the rain, outside Santander, using the cut-off bottom of a water bottle I found in the ditch and a piece of pipe cut off the battery overflow hose. It's still not right but it got me home. I didn't fancy trying to drive off the ferry with no clutch! The air's getting in somewhere - I think it's where the pipe is banjo bolted to the master cylinder, so I'll try a new pair of copper washers. It's worth checking these joints especially if someone's fitted aftermarket hoses in the past. Cheers, Andrew
Quote from: Ponty on May 01, 2015, 10:11:32 AM
I just bled my clutch on the roadside, in the rain, outside Santander, using the cut-off bottom of a water bottle I found in the ditch and a piece of pipe cut off the battery overflow hose. It's still not right but it got me home. I didn't fancy trying to drive off the ferry with no clutch!
I love it! Great fix and glad it got you home!
BTW, check you slave for leakage. It's not uncommon for them to need a rebuild.
Quote from: Ponty on May 01, 2015, 10:11:32 AM
The air's getting in somewhere - I think it's where the pipe is banjo bolted to the master cylinder, so I'll try a new pair of copper washers.
I don't think that's where air is getting into the system. There is no external force trying to push air into the line. If air was getting in some place, then brake fluid would be leaking out at that same place.
Except through the master cylinder.
Here's what usually happens:
The slave cylinder piston starts to corrode
It then starts seeping fluid
The lost fluid is replaced by the master cylinder reservior
The level in the master gets low enough that sloshing in the reservior allows air to get forced into the line.
As the slave cylinder starts to go bad you will loose fluid and the level drops in the master .
If your Fj is on its kickstand and you pull the clutch in and release it , you will suddenly find yourself with no clutch .
Yes I think you're right about the slave cylinder - apparently you can be drawing a little air in through the seal even though it's not leaking. I've got a kit coming.
Quote from: FJscott on March 12, 2015, 10:52:46 PM
One method I use to expedite the bleeding of air from the Clutch slave is to remove it (keep hyd line attached) and SLOWLY depress the piston inward with my thumb.
this does 2 things;
1-Decreases volume to be bled to minimum
2- forces any air up to the MC where it naturally wants to be
Scott
I can confirm this makes the job a whole lot easier with a recalcitrant bleed process, even Mityvac didnt do mine, but this worked great
To limit frustration I just tie the lever to the bar and walk away for a day. Helps with my blood pressure and swearing and general mood. Jolly good for the folks that can do this in minutes though.
Chiz