well i am trudging along on this wheel conversion and made a big(but fixable) mistake
wrong rotors :dash2:
the mistake: well, its a '91 FZR1000 wheel, so get some EBC replacement rotors for a FZR 1000, right?!?......wrong- that aint gonna work
so much for the "simpleton" method
the ones i ordered are 320mm
will a 300mm rotor fit? or does it have to be 286mm?
i am fishing for guidance here as i have concerns with not only the diameter of the rotor but also the "offset"- the stock FZR rotor was flat, the EBC rotor "stood off" the hub mount, approx 1/4"
i will be using FJ forks (i think, will start another thread for that) and Blue Dot calipers
i will talk to EBC today but, i dont think they will be as much help as it is a custom application, more or less born here by FJ owners
help please, i blew it trying to do it myself
p.s. the EBC rotors i bought are "MD2003XC"
thank you!
If you were to use FZR1000 forks, would that fix the problem?
If so, there is a nice pair on Ebay for $80...
http://www.ebay.com/itm/1988-Yamaha-FZR1000-Forks-/321655030912?pt=Motorcycles_Parts_Accessories&hash=item4ae4224480 (http://www.ebay.com/itm/1988-Yamaha-FZR1000-Forks-/321655030912?pt=Motorcycles_Parts_Accessories&hash=item4ae4224480)
Someone here should know better than I. Just throwing this out there as a possibility.
CraigO
Many members use the 300mm Arashi wave rotors. They are plentiful on eBay and work very well.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/2-New-Front-Brake-Rotor-Disc-for-YAMAHA-TDM850-TRX850-FZ750-GENESIS-FJ1200-Gold-/141209740827?pt=Motorcycles_Parts_Accessories&fits=Model%3AFJ1200&hash=item20e0c1a61b&vxp=mtr#ht_3866wt_1161 (http://www.ebay.com/itm/2-New-Front-Brake-Rotor-Disc-for-YAMAHA-TDM850-TRX850-FZ750-GENESIS-FJ1200-Gold-/141209740827?pt=Motorcycles_Parts_Accessories&fits=Model%3AFJ1200&hash=item20e0c1a61b&vxp=mtr#ht_3866wt_1161)
They come in 2 colors, gold and black. Here is a photo of both colors on the two 1989's. Mine is the white one and it does have a '88 FZR750R front wheel.
(http://i119.photobucket.com/albums/o145/aviationfred/WCR18_zpse10ca0c2.jpg) (http://s119.photobucket.com/user/aviationfred/media/WCR18_zpse10ca0c2.jpg.html)
Fred
Quote from: craigo on February 12, 2015, 09:03:44 AM
If you were to use FZR1000 forks, would that fix the problem?
The YZF750r USD forks solve this issue as well... and get the chicks!
Frank
Another point..... Have you factored in that the '91 FZR wheel bearings use a 17mm dia. axle, versus the 15mm dia. axle that the FJ uses?? I don't believe the OEM FJ bearings will fit into the '91 FZR wheel.
Fred
Quote from: Flynt on February 12, 2015, 10:07:39 AM
Quote from: craigo on February 12, 2015, 09:03:44 AM
If you were to use FZR1000 forks, would that fix the problem?
The YZF750r USD forks solve this issue as well... and get the chicks!
Frank
Fzr1000 forks will create more problems , they are not a direct swap. I went thru this so I know.
as always, thanks for all the input!
wow, Ben at EBC America was fantastically patient and helpful
looks like the ones for the '89-'92 will bolt right on to the FZR wheel
there is a difference of .16mm on the offset but, i am sure i can deal with that
we had a good laugh, sigh, at my expense, about how the good deal i got on the rotors will be out weighed by the return shipping costs,
- its just the way i do things
and yes, my last name does end with a "ski"
funny how that works
Quote from: aviationfred on February 12, 2015, 11:02:51 AM
Another point..... Have you factored in that the '91 FZR wheel bearings use a 17mm dia. axle, versus the 15mm dia. axle that the FJ uses?? I don't believe the OEM FJ bearings will fit into the '91 FZR wheel.
Fred
yes, will use the FZR bearings and have the fork lowers bored the extra 2mm by a machinist
i must thank Mike Ramos for letting me in on this simple and cheap solution- this way the FZR speedo drive works
gonna have to get this and the rear yzf wheel to the machinist - i always look forward to this, my machinist is the local v-twin guy, he is a fantastic resource - burned out hewlett packard engineer, the guy is a genuis and has a strange respect for my "Jap" bikes, we get along great but, his customers just dont know how to deal with me.
generally they just snort in my general direction, i think they want to hate me but they keep it cool for for the owner, my ears always burn when i leave, heh
btw, i wear full gear - this might be part of the reason
i know i can take 99% of them on my 400 on the roads up here, i think they know it too- sorry for the rant but, never underestimate the small displacement Jap bike
i guess thats part of the excitement with the FJ but, its big, its powerful, its vintage, and with this wheel-brake-suspension upgrade it is going to be a player!
i cant wait for spring!
Quote from: aviationfred on February 12, 2015, 09:48:18 AM
Many members use the 300mm Arashi wave rotors. They are plentiful on eBay and work very well.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/2-New-Front-Brake-Rotor-Disc-for-YAMAHA-TDM850-TRX850-FZ750-GENESIS-FJ1200-Gold-/141209740827?pt=Motorcycles_Parts_Accessories&fits=Model%3AFJ1200&hash=item20e0c1a61b&vxp=mtr#ht_3866wt_1161 (http://www.ebay.com/itm/2-New-Front-Brake-Rotor-Disc-for-YAMAHA-TDM850-TRX850-FZ750-GENESIS-FJ1200-Gold-/141209740827?pt=Motorcycles_Parts_Accessories&fits=Model%3AFJ1200&hash=item20e0c1a61b&vxp=mtr#ht_3866wt_1161)
They come in 2 colors, gold and black. Here is a photo of both colors on the two 1989's. Mine is the white one and it does have a '88 FZR750R front wheel.
(http://i119.photobucket.com/albums/o145/aviationfred/WCR18_zpse10ca0c2.jpg) (http://s119.photobucket.com/user/aviationfred/media/WCR18_zpse10ca0c2.jpg.html)
Fred
^nope, no chinese parts where they could cost me my life^
fairing screws and stickers sure, no way on brake parts
i feel the same way about those cheap pattern brake handles that cause front brake lockup, just not worth saving the $100
I would like to know more about that rotor failure...
Full floating rotors need to be clocked between right and left rotors.
Mine are genuine Galfers Wave rotors made in Spain.
Quote from: Pat Conlon on February 14, 2015, 05:16:57 PM
I would like to know more about that rotor failure...
Full floating rotors need to be clocked between right and left
Pat, what do you mean by ..."clocked between right and left" and what rotor failure are you referring to, I could find nothing in the thread on it. I'm only interested because it's an extremely rare occurrence.
Noel
Pat, in all fairness, i have no background information on that photo
someone posted it in a thread about the Chinese knock-off levers
1) its a shocking image, sensational and frightening
2)on the other hand, why the plastic fairings are not destroyed from a resulting crash is suspect(how could that not cause a crash?)
still, i will not trust any Chinese steel or alloy in a load bearing application
please elaborate about the "clocking" the full floater
Quote from: fjfool on February 15, 2015, 07:34:19 AM
still, i will not trust any Chinese steel or alloy in a load bearing application
I mostly share your view and would not, for example, have Chinese master cylinders and many other things but I researched these rotors endlessly because I knew of so many people using them without issue.
The post below is an old one and my rotors by now have probably done as many kms as any on the forum, and they get
used.I was also a little suspicious of that rotor failure for reasons I couldn't quite put my finger on.
Chinese Junk
« on: April 15, 2013, 07:12:28 PM »
Reply with quoteReply with Quote
I like to research things before buying, something the net enables you to do infinitely.
I did this with my Chinese rotors. While there was much anecdotal evidence here, I looked around elsewhere as well.
Pretty much nothing but glowing reports from users everywhere I looked.
The only naysayers being those who had not actually used them prattling on about not trusting their lives to something as important as brakes with cheap Chinese rubbish and so on.
I came across a Hayabusa forum with a lot of members very happy with these rotors and found this post which might be of interest to anyone sitting on the fence and considering new discs.
I have a couple of thousand Km's on mine now and have subjected them to everything that is ever likely to be required of them and I am very happy with them.
I suspect with a third of the worlds manufactured goods now coming out of China we are trusting our lives daily to cheap Chinese products more than we realise. Many old and well respected brands have quietly moved their manufacturing there without fanfare.
A footnote for Aussies, forget about the yanks (or whoever) owning Vegemite, Hills Hoists are now made in China!!!!!!
My father works in a company that performs tests to weldings and metal fatigue in big structures (bridges, railways...) here in Portugal and Spain.
I ordered one of this Chinese rotors and gave it to him for him to test.
I posted the results on the Portuguese Hayabusa Forum
Forum Hayabusa Portugal :: Verificar tpico - Discos em flor opces e preos.
Ok, it is written in Portuguese but I'll can sum it up by saying that the "Arashi" rotor passed every single test. After heating, cooling, twisting, pressing and chemical abuse all came out fine.
One test that is particularly interesting is rotating the rotor in a machine that reads changes in a magnetic field crossed by the rotor thus enabling to "see" into the rotor to check the uniformity of the metal alloy.
By the way, the metal the rotor is made of it's called Martensitic Steel (AISI 420), just like the Galfers, Braking, EBC, etc. .
I've surfed the web and found everything: warped Arashi rotors, warped OEM rotors, warped Galfers, cracked Brembos, you name it. I guess these Arashi rotors are as good (or as bad...) as the others.
On a final note, I just wanted to say that you rarely get "what you pay for". Life does not work like that at all. Sure, the rule of thumb is that the more expensive something is, the better.
But for this type of simple, mass produced items, the final price little has to do with production costs. It has more to do with desire of ownership and pose value. It doesn't matter if a rotor- any brand -costs $1 do make if people are willing to pay $1000 for it.
I'm sure that if I erased the Galfer letters from a rotor set and engraved Chinese rotors with the Brembo logo and gave them to some one in this forum do drive-test them in his bike he would rave about the "Brembos" and trash the "Chinese".
Report to moderator 210.49.213.21
Noel
Quote from: ribbert on February 15, 2015, 08:09:39 AM
I suspect with a third of the worlds manufactured goods now coming out of China we are trusting our lives daily to cheap Chinese products more than we realise.
Totally agree with this statement. I recently finished a stainless steel component design at work, and ordered a quantity of the item from a local fabricator. They were required to furnish a Certificate of Compliance of the material used. The material was sourced from China.
Many members here are using the Chinese wave rotors with not a single problem I have heard off yet .
I may be mistaken but I think L.A. Mike was one of the first to try them about 11/09 ... :scratch_one-s_head:
I have been running them at least that long on my YZF. That bike saw mainly track duty and was pushed harder than most street riders will ever push.
I purchased three sets and all have performed to expectation.
When I purchased the first set I subjected them to every non destructive test our quality manager had at his disposal (I work for a major global tier 1 auto part manufacturer). The OEM YZF600 rotors was used as a control. The 95 YZF600 uses the same rotor as the non ABS FJ, in fact I donated the worn stockers to a member of this group.
One of the sets was bent at a race (as was the wheel and a few hundred dollars worth of other parts) and I let the Q manager (also metallurgist) inspect the parts including cutting them to inspect the microstructure and hardness penetration. In his opinion the steel ring was well made.
I do have a few issues with them. Unlike the Galfers they resemble, they are not full floating. This can cause a pulsation at the lever during extreme conditions due to the outer ring not being able to expand sufficiently. I noted this on more than one track and once on the street where I was riding way faster than I should have been.
I am not sure if this would be an issue for 99% of the street riders out there as I run very aggressive brake pads (Vesrah SRJL) and have a riding style on that bike that involves very high corner entry and very aggressive trail breaking.
Would I purchase them again? Depending on budget I probably would. Fortunately I have a pretty good job these days and when I set up my SV1000 I went with a true full floating and high quality Braking rotor. Truthfully this bike will never see the track and is no where near as quick as my 600 so I don't really know if the 'better' rotors were worth the nearly 5X price. But they do look cool.
Conclusion. In my opinion the Chinese rotors are at least as good as the not 21+ year old stock rotors.
I first heard of them from LA Mike. When I was upgrading my front (May of 2012) I looked him up and asked what he thought of the rotors now that he had some time on them. Based on his opinion I got a set, over 16K miles later I am still very happy with them. Great for the price.
Quote from: Pat Conlon on February 14, 2015, 05:16:57 PM
Full floating rotors need to be clocked between right and left rotors.
Pat, myself and one other asked what you meant by this and got no answer.
Noel
Quote from: Pat Conlon on February 14, 2015, 05:16:57 PM
Mine are genuine Galfers Wave rotors made in Spain.
....
from Chinese sourced components. :biggrin:Noel
Quote from: ribbert on February 17, 2015, 04:48:26 AM
Quote from: Pat Conlon on February 14, 2015, 05:16:57 PM
Full floating rotors need to be clocked between right and left rotors.
Pat, myself and one other asked what you meant by this and got no answer.
Noel
Sorry Noel, I've been away....The Galfer installation instructions mentioned this...The Galfers have a rotor carrier with the buttons at the end of each of the spokes. Clocking is aligning the rotor carrier spokes so that the right and left carriers are in alignment as you view the carriers from the side. I assume this is to assure that the left and right loads (under braking) are transferred at precisely the same moment (not out of sync) from the carrier -> to the buttons-> to the rotor plate-> to the brake pads/calipers.
I've been chasing a strange intermittent hum coming from the front tire on my '92...happens at freeway speeds in a narrow window between 75-80mph. It felt harmonic in nature, not the typical vibe, more like a hum. I have fresh wheel bearings. I've had the tire spin balanced on a Hunter....I put a new Pilot Road 4 tire on....the intermittent hum still there.
Then, I was up visiting Randy at RPM one afternoon and Frank (Flynt) was there, and we were chatting...and he mentioned "clocking" the rotors.
Only then did I recall the Galfer instructions. Sure enough, my rotor carrier spokes were out of sync....
So, leaving the wheel on the forks, I unfastened the rotor bolts and rotated the left and right sides until the spokes lined up and all is well.
...the hum is gone.
Quote from: Pat Conlon on February 17, 2015, 09:40:54 AM
Quote from: ribbert on February 17, 2015, 04:48:26 AM
Quote from: Pat Conlon on February 14, 2015, 05:16:57 PM
Full floating rotors need to be clocked between right and left rotors.
Pat, myself and one other asked what you meant by this and got no answer.
Noel
Sorry Noel, I've been away....The Galfer installation instructions mentioned this...The Galfers have a rotor carrier with the buttons at the end of each of the spokes. Clocking is aligning the rotor carrier spokes so that the right and left carriers are in alignment as you view the carriers from the side. I assume this is to assure that the left and right loads (under braking) are transferred at precisely the same moment (not out of sync) from the carrier -> to the buttons-> to the rotor plate-> to the brake pads/calipers.
I've been chasing a strange intermittent hum coming from the front tire on my '92...happens at freeway speeds in a narrow window between 75-80mph. It felt harmonic in nature, not the typical vibe, more like a hum. I have fresh wheel bearings. I've had the tire spin balanced on a Hunter....I put a new Pilot Road 4 tire on....the intermittent hum still there.
Then, I was up visiting Randy at RPM one afternoon and Frank (Flynt) was there, and we were chatting...and he mentioned "clocking" the rotors.
Only then did I recall the Galfer instructions. Sure enough, my rotor carrier spokes were out of sync....
So, leaving the wheel on the forks, I unfastened the rotor bolts and rotated the left and right sides until the spokes lined up and all is well.
...the hum is gone.
Geez this place is educational. (Thanks) :drinks:
geez, i ask , and then its almost like i try to bite back with some pic of my opinion - fellas, i obliviously have some personal issues to deal with
i ask for info and get a great response- thanks avaitionfred! i dont mean to comeback at you with some "i know better shit" that chinese crap, bla bla bla
as i look back on the post i see some issues on my side and i have to question myself and how i come across to other people, antisocial maybe a bit
thank you also , Noel, you are so right when you said something to the extant of - i dont remember this starting out as a rotor failure thread
where the f%#k was i coming from?!?
i have to check myself here
this site and the people that add to it have already helped me so much, way more than a shop manual could
i know i will need further assistance and it will come from this place
thank you for putting up with me and i will try to be a bit more thoughtful when i post
i got plans for this thing!
-eric
Eric, stay connected. This is our digital campfire. Not a proving ground. We learn more when more members contribute. Simple as that. Happy you are part of this group...
Quote from: fjfool on February 17, 2015, 09:50:58 PM
geez, i ask , and then its almost like i try to bite back with some pic of my opinion - fellas, i obliviously have some personal issues to deal with
i ask for info and get a great response- thanks avaitionfred! i dont mean to comeback at you with some "i know better shit" that chinese crap, bla bla bla
as i look back on the post i see some issues on my side and i have to question myself and how i come across to other people, antisocial maybe a bit
thank you also , Noel, you are so right when you said something to the extant of - i dont remember this starting out as a rotor failure thread
where the f%#k was i coming from?!?
i have to check myself here
this site and the people that add to it have already helped me so much, way more than a shop manual could
i know i will need further assistance and it will come from this place
thank you for putting up with me and i will try to be a bit more thoughtful when i post
i got plans for this thing!
-eric
Eric , as you may have noticed the threads can go in all kinds of directions from the original topic. Lots of information will come out around the topic that most of the time will be helpful to the op or maybe someone else who hadn't even asked yet. you will often get advice you don't need but may still be useful to someone.
The picture of the wasted Chinese rotor failure caused a collective butt clinch for the members who have them on their fj's . The first guys to use them took a risk and for the FJ it has worked out so far.
I look forward to your future posts . :drinks:
I bought new rotors from http://metalgear.com.au/ (http://metalgear.com.au/)
Great product from an Aussie company for members down-under, and no risk of hepatitis.
John
Quote from: fjfool on February 17, 2015, 09:50:58 PM
geez, i ask , and then its almost like i try to bite back with some pic of my opinion - fellas, i obliviously have some personal issues to deal with .......
.....where the f%#k was i coming from?!?.......
-eric
Eric, stop thinking so much. As Mark said, posts wander off all over the place. It's in part what makes the forum interesting and somewhere in the mix you'll get your answer.
BTW, did I tell you about my recipe for deep fried goat gonads............
Noel
Quote from: Pat Conlon on February 17, 2015, 09:40:54 AM
Sorry Noel, I've been away....
Thanks for the reply Pat, you learn something every day, although after 3 coffees when I first read it early this morning and again after 3(+)wines tonight (one or the other usually works) I cant make any sense of the theory behind it other than the wind creating a whistling effect. Tell me what I'm missing.
The loading up of the rotors at the same time is rubbish. Think about how the load is transmitted.
Maybe tomorrow morning's coffee will shed new light on it.
Noel
Clocking the rotors does not have anything to do with the position of the spokes relative to each other. I think it is how much run out (measured with a dial indicator on the outside diameter of the brake rotor) there is between the hub and the rotor. Depending on which position on the hub it is mounted you will have more or less. With 6 positions possible the one with the least amount could be found. It is my OPINION with too much run out the rotors will vibrate back and forth on the buttons(in the same plane as the rotor). I suspect this will happen at a specific speed and would go away immediately when the brakes are applied. With such a small amount of movement I don't think you would feel any vibration but would get a hum. I think this scenario would be extremely rare. Just my SWAG. Dave
Thanks Dave, that makes sense......
Yea Noel, I figured you would mention (in some form) the word "rubbish" in your response... silly me.
I have thought about the load path.
I always used to assume that (under braking) the load transfers equally across all the buttons and thus equally across the entire circumference of the rotor plate, but remember, we are discussing full floating Wave rotors with peaks and valleys on the outside circumference.
Now I can visualize a slight increase in load concentration where the rotor plate sweeps across the brake pads.
That's why I was careful in my post when I wrote, "I assume..."
Quote from: ribbert on February 18, 2015, 07:44:34 AM
Quote from: Pat Conlon on February 17, 2015, 09:40:54 AM
Sorry Noel, I've been away....
Thanks for the reply Pat, you learn something every day, although after 3 coffees when I first read it early this morning and again after 3(+)wines tonight (one or the other usually works) I cant make any sense of the theory behind it other than the wind creating a whistling effect. Tell me what I'm missing.
The loading up of the rotors at the same time is rubbish. Think about how the load is transmitted.
Maybe tomorrow morning's coffee will shed new light on it.
Noel
Hmmm...a bit of googling uncovered this for me. http://www.ford-trucks.com/forums/605913-clocking-brake-rotors-to-minimize-rotor-runout.html (http://www.ford-trucks.com/forums/605913-clocking-brake-rotors-to-minimize-rotor-runout.html)
....but it doesn`t solve in my mind why that occurs when spokes are aligned....maybe more to do with lateral alignment than axial. (which is covered a bit under turbine clocking.)
ummmm....how many spokes are there compared to support bolts? Just looking on Ebay there are 6 bolts but 10 spokes.....so maybe it`s related to machining consistencey at the factory to guarantee minimum runout? (popcorn)
Quote from: The General on February 18, 2015, 01:24:50 PM
Quote from: ribbert on February 18, 2015, 07:44:34 AM
Quote from: Pat Conlon on February 17, 2015, 09:40:54 AM
Sorry Noel, I've been away....
Thanks for the reply Pat, you learn something every day, although after 3 coffees when I first read it early this morning and again after 3(+)wines tonight (one or the other usually works) I cant make any sense of the theory behind it other than the wind creating a whistling effect. Tell me what I'm missing.
The loading up of the rotors at the same time is rubbish. Think about how the load is transmitted.
Maybe tomorrow morning's coffee will shed new light on it.
Noel
Hmmm...a bit of googling uncovered this for me. http://www.ford-trucks.com/forums/605913-clocking-brake-rotors-to-minimize-rotor-runout.html (http://www.ford-trucks.com/forums/605913-clocking-brake-rotors-to-minimize-rotor-runout.html)
....but it doesn`t solve in my mind why that occurs when spokes are aligned....maybe more to do with lateral alignment than axial. (which is covered a bit under turbine clocking.)
ummmm....how many spokes are there compared to support bolts? Just looking on Ebay there are 6 bolts but 10 spokes.....so maybe it`s related to machining consistencey at the factory to guarantee minimum runout? (popcorn)
...ummmm, would moving one three bolts (180deg) from spoke aligment be even finer? (sorry, just thinking out loud) (popcorn)
Quote from: Pat Conlon on February 18, 2015, 11:23:52 AM
Yea Noel, I figured you would mention (in some form) the word "rubbish" in your response... silly me.
No worries Pat, anytime. I glad I didn't disappoint you.
It had been a long night of technical discussions and perhaps my characteristic tact and diplomacy was a little depleted, throw in some confusion over where I was and no time to massage the message into touchy feely language.
If any other sensitive souls on the forum were offended by my brutal and harsh response, I apologise unreservedly and in future will wear kid gloves when typing or maybe just become a plus oner. :biggrin:
Noel
Quote from: The General on February 18, 2015, 01:35:19 PM
ummmm....how many spokes are there compared to support bolts? Just looking on Ebay there are 6 bolts but 10 spokes.....so maybe it`s related to machining consistencey at the factory to guarantee minimum runout? (popcorn)
...ummmm, would moving one three bolts (180deg) from spoke aligment be even finer? (sorry, just thinking out loud) (popcorn)
Hey Doug, sorry for the late reply, I had to get home and check my bikes...FYI on the Galfers (both OD 320mm and 298mm) there are 6 bolts attaching the rotor carrier to the hub.
There are 9 spokes on the carrier with a button at the end of each spoke.
With full floating rotors I suspect run out would not *as big a issue* as it would be with rigid or semi floaters.
Interesting discussion, thanks fellas...you too Noel. It's cool amigo..Don't change your ways, or the earth will shift on it's axis :drinks:
ok, i think i'm done pouting
thanks for dealing
Noel, how about that recipe?
goat? pfft, prolly just little bites, up here we use the bull- takes a fork and a knife
big friggin balls man!
i got the day off, the old lady has to work= a full day in the garage :good2: