Finally I did my relay mod. But I have ,,problem":
When I measure V in original coils installation there is 11,73V while on battery is 12,1V.
I measured it with key turned to ON, ignition switch in ON and voltmeter connected between coils ground cable and red/white power wire from handle switch......
So I have only 0,4V drop???? I am the lucky one or ..... :wacko3:
Quote from: MOTOMYSZOR on December 25, 2014, 07:41:36 AMFinally I did my relay mod. But I have ,,problem": When I measure V in original coils installation there is 11,73V while on battery is 12,1V. I measured it with key turned to ON, ignition switch in ON and voltmeter connected between coils ground cable and red/white power wire from handle switch...... So I have only 0,4V drop???? I am the lucky one or .....
MOTOMYSZOR,
With no load, voltage can "float" to the highest available value. The voltage can be a much lower value there, under load. What matters is the current flow available, not the voltage. Here is a mental picture: Fill two buckets on a table with water, and have the buckets connected at the bottoms with a pencil-thin tube. The water level in each bucket will be equal in height, and if you add water to one side, the levels will become equal again. Use a hole saw to make a hole larger than your thumb in the second bucket, halfway between the water level and the bottom of the bucket. Keep pouring water into the first bucket, so it stays full, but the second bucket, with the large hole, will never get full because the drain (load) is too large.
When you change from the stock wiring to the relay system, you have replaced the pencil-thin tube at the bottom of the buckets with a fist-sized pipe. Even though the second bucket has a thumb-sized hole, you can keep both buckets full then, just by adding water to the first bucket, even though there is a heavy drain on the system.
The small "voltage drop" that you see when measuring voltage at rest comes from the resistance of the wires and switch contacts. You probably would not see such a healthy voltage there under load. Any voltmeter takes some time to respond to voltage changes, and to read the correct value. At any instant, the voltage might be zero, but if the voltage jumps up again fast enough, the voltmeter might not show any drop in voltage. An oscilloscope would show
any instantaneous changes in voltage, there.
It's snowing here . . . :morning1:
Cheers,
Red
I know that original wires are very slim....
But most people on forum had around 10V in original installation.
So now I have doubts......
Because in my FJ volt regulator is not perfect and gives 15V on higher revs, I afraid that relay mod can fry my coils...... :dash1:
Don't worry be happy,
Before you did the mod you had 15v anyway , The relay mod allows full bat voltage on startups as well as running. when your voltage starts going to 17v then worry.
Because electronics is like black magic for me have to ask about transpo regulator modification ....
Popular replacement for OEM regulator is Bosch RE55. But can I use any other regulator with 2 wires (DF and D+) ?
Like this one: http://www.ebay.ie/itm/Voltage-Regulator-14V-55A-BOSCH-9190087003-/151456120535?pt=Motors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&hash=item23437cfed7 (http://www.ebay.ie/itm/Voltage-Regulator-14V-55A-BOSCH-9190087003-/151456120535?pt=Motors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&hash=item23437cfed7)
I don't know why it wouldn't work. Make sure the case has a good corrosion free ground. Price is cheap enough. Personally I also recommend a cheap digital volt meter mounted somewhere where you can monitor it. e bay item...
George :drinks:
Quote from: MOTOMYSZOR on January 16, 2015, 09:56:29 AM
Because electronics is like black magic for me have to ask about transpo regulator modification ....
Popular replacement for OEM regulator is Bosch RE55. But can I use any other regulator with 2 wires (DF and D+) ?
Like this one: http://www.ebay.ie/itm/Voltage-Regulator-14V-55A-BOSCH-9190087003-/151456120535?pt=Motors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&hash=item23437cfed7 (http://www.ebay.ie/itm/Voltage-Regulator-14V-55A-BOSCH-9190087003-/151456120535?pt=Motors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&hash=item23437cfed7)
You can't go wrong with a component from Latvia. It just screams quality. :good2:
Quote from: movenon on January 16, 2015, 10:20:09 AM
I don't know why it wouldn't work. Make sure the case has a good corrosion free ground. Price is cheap enough. Personally I also recommend a cheap digital volt meter mounted somewhere where you can monitor it. e bay item...
George :drinks:
I should also clarify something about your comment about using "using any other regulator with 2 wires (DF and D+) ?" The FJ alternator is rated at 28 amps so make sure the regulator is rated for that. Not a problem usually, just knowledge. I have a Bosch IB301 adjustable regulator and seems to work fine. I like mounting the regulator externally. Removes it from Alt/engine heat, heat from the regulation it's self and gives me easy control of the output voltage. With the adjustable unit you can adjust the voltage for the type of battery you have. Lead acid vs a Lithium. Probably a minor issue for some.
(http://fjowners.com/gallery/7/1651_30_04_14_9_17_34.jpeg)
(http://fjowners.com/gallery/7/1651_30_04_14_9_19_47.jpeg)
IMO one of these or some variant is nice to have. http://www.ebay.com/itm/DC-0-30V-Blue-LED-3-Digital-Display-Voltage-Voltmeter-Panel-Motorcycle-01-DFUS-/331348728832?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item4d25ec5c00 (http://www.ebay.com/itm/DC-0-30V-Blue-LED-3-Digital-Display-Voltage-Voltmeter-Panel-Motorcycle-01-DFUS-/331348728832?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item4d25ec5c00)
George
I was looking at one of these the other day while searching for a suitable panel mount USB socket.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Dual-USB-3-1-Amp-Charger-and-Voltmeter-Panel-Mount-12V-Marine-Motorcycle-/261733327067?pt=Boat_Parts_Accessories_Gear&hash=item3cf085a0db&vxp=mtr (http://www.ebay.com/itm/Dual-USB-3-1-Amp-Charger-and-Voltmeter-Panel-Mount-12V-Marine-Motorcycle-/261733327067?pt=Boat_Parts_Accessories_Gear&hash=item3cf085a0db&vxp=mtr)
Not sure if the LED brightness can be controlled as it could be a pain if too bright at night.
Quote from: FJools on January 16, 2015, 05:02:41 PM
I was looking at one of these the other day while searching for a suitable panel mount USB socket.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Dual-USB-3-1-Amp-Charger-and-Voltmeter-Panel-Mount-12V-Marine-Motorcycle-/261733327067?pt=Boat_Parts_Accessories_Gear&hash=item3cf085a0db&vxp=mtr (http://www.ebay.com/itm/Dual-USB-3-1-Amp-Charger-and-Voltmeter-Panel-Mount-12V-Marine-Motorcycle-/261733327067?pt=Boat_Parts_Accessories_Gear&hash=item3cf085a0db&vxp=mtr)
Not sure if the LED brightness can be controlled as it could be a pain if too bright at night.
For me it is not to bright at night but I will mention that it is harder to see during the day (bright sunshine). But it isn't a gauge I have to monitor at any one moment.
Some members like the old analog meters because you can glance at them and get a quick reference. I chose the digital because it is small and hopefully more reliable than the analog meters that I have had in the past on motorcycles. Its all personal choice. A voltmeter is handy to monitor battery condition and charging. I think the service manual puts the upper limit at around 15 volts (that's without me digging into the manual) anyhow when it gets up into that area your voltage regulator is failing and cooking your battery. Also possably your battrey is weak over working the alternator.
Another tip while if you are working in that area or doing a routine inspection trace the red wire coming out of the generator going to a red connector on the left side. It is around where the battery is. Should be easy to locate look for the red connector. Pull it apart and give it a good look. If you have been over charging that connect might need some attention. Here is a picture of mine. Looked OK plugged in but when pulled apart you can see some heat damage. When I changed out the regulator I was a 15.2 - 15.3 volts charging just for info.
(http://fjowners.com/gallery/7/1651_30_04_14_9_21_26.jpeg)
That panel looks nice, I might have to update mine ! Ummm :good2: always something..... :lol:
George
Here's another Voltage Display and USB port device.
I've bought from this source before and their product quality is usually very good.
https://www.dx.com/p/car-2-1a-usb-port-socket-with-voltage-display-for-honda-black-373050 (https://www.dx.com/p/car-2-1a-usb-port-socket-with-voltage-display-for-honda-black-373050)
Arnie
Don't know if its relevant to this thread, but my FJ was charging at upwards of 14.8v to around the 15v mark, and the battery was bubbling after every ride (top up needed) which obviously ain't right or great. I checked the voltage regularly and it was consistently overcharging. Out of interest, it was actually a little worse when the headlight was on.
I changed the regulator to a new Electrex hoping it might help, there was no change in charging voltage.
I then carried out the headlight relay mod using the kit from Easternbeaver. This installs new wiring from battery to headlight.
I also carried out the coil relay mod, this too installs new wiring from battery to coils.
After these changes my battery charging voltage has been more normal at around 14.3 - 14.4v. Now I'm no electrics expert, but I kind of put this down to new wiring creating less resistance or something like that which then affects how the battery is charged. I don't know. Maybe because the system is a bit more balanced it all works better. Like I say I know little about electrics, but can definitely say my charging voltage is now normal after installing those mods. Both of which have effectively given new wiring to important circuits on the bike, so my logic says that must have had an effect.
Out of interest I also get a little voltage drop from battery to coil (engine not running). I think about .05 of a volt, but voltage to both coils and headlight has improved significantly after the mods, which is kind of the idea I know.
I know its not completely relevant to this thread, but maybe it will help someone, I don't know.
Quote from: mark1969 on January 17, 2015, 07:07:31 AM
After these changes my battery charging voltage has been more normal at around 14.3 - 14.4v.
Somewhere along the line, something good happened when you were doing your mods. I guess the important thing is that you now have a correct, consistent and stable charging voltage.
Never hurts to go through the connections, grounds, switches and such, and clean up those 30 year old neglected points. Bringing them back to good as (or near) new again.
I have also bought a number items from Eastern Beaver over the years. Good stuff.
Congrats! :good2:
I am guessing the wires you replace/bypassed had more resistance than the new ones. That resistance was telling the voltage regulator that the battery was low or the system needed more voltage. Now that the resistance has normal resistance, the voltage regulator is not getting false readings and putting out the correct voltage. Did you notice a brighter headlamp after the mod?
Quote from: FJmonkey on January 17, 2015, 09:58:05 AM
I am guessing the wires you replace/bypassed had more resistance than the new ones. That resistance was telling the voltage regulator that the battery was low or the system needed more voltage. Now that the resistance has normal resistance, the voltage regulator is not getting false readings and putting out the correct voltage. Did you notice a brighter headlamp after the mod?
Thanks for reply. Yes the headlamp is brighter, which was the plan. I thought of going HID but decided the relay mod was sufficient for me.
The coil mod is worthwhile too for anyone still pondering over it. Ideally a full rewire would be the answer, but it's quite an invasive project and beyond my skills, and expensive for someone else to do, so both the relay mods are a nice compromise, and within my tinkering skills.. :good2:
Quote from: FJ1100mjk on January 17, 2015, 07:17:04 AM
Quote from: mark1969 on January 17, 2015, 07:07:31 AM
After these changes my battery charging voltage has been more normal at around 14.3 - 14.4v.
Somewhere along the line, something good happened when you were doing your mods. I guess the important thing is that you now have a correct, consistent and stable charging voltage.
Never hurts to go through the connections, grounds, switches and such, and clean up those 30 year old neglected points. Bringing them back to good as (or near) new again.
I have also bought a number items from Eastern Beaver over the years. Good stuff.
Congrats! :good2:
Cheers, it's certainly nice not to have a boiling battery under my rear end..! :bomb:
Quote from: mark1969 on January 17, 2015, 01:03:46 PM
Thanks for reply. Yes the headlamp is brighter, which was the plan. I though of going HID but decided the relay mod was sufficient for me.
The coil mod is worthwhile too for anyone still pondering over it. Ideally a full rewire would be the answer, but it's quite an invasive project and beyond my skills, and expensive for someone else to do, so both the relay mods are a nice compromise, and within my tinkering skills.. :good2:
I did the HID which essentially bypasses the OEM wires and uses the head lamp connector to know when to turn on and switch to Hi-Beam, it connects direct to the battery. And I like having a small piece of the sun shooting out of my headlamp on dark nights. I also plan to install a relay for the coils for the same reason, get the power and voltage where it belongs. Thanks for posting you success, I hope it encourages others sitting on the fence that we can improve our FJs without paying a mechanic.
Quote from: movenon on January 16, 2015, 06:43:07 PM
Quote from: FJools on January 16, 2015, 05:02:41 PM
I was looking at one of these the other day while searching for a suitable panel mount USB socket.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Dual-USB-3-1-Amp-Charger-and-Voltmeter-Panel-Mount-12V-Marine-Motorcycle-/261733327067?pt=Boat_Parts_Accessories_Gear&hash=item3cf085a0db&vxp=mtr (http://www.ebay.com/itm/Dual-USB-3-1-Amp-Charger-and-Voltmeter-Panel-Mount-12V-Marine-Motorcycle-/261733327067?pt=Boat_Parts_Accessories_Gear&hash=item3cf085a0db&vxp=mtr)
Not sure if the LED brightness can be controlled as it could be a pain if too bright at night.
For me it is not to bright at night but I will mention that it is harder to see during the day (bright sunshine). But it isn't a gauge I have to monitor at any one moment.
Some members like the old analog meters because you can glance at them and get a quick reference. I chose the digital because it is small and hopefully more reliable than the analog meters that I have had in the past on motorcycles. Its all personal choice. A voltmeter is handy to monitor battery condition and charging. I think the service manual puts the upper limit at around 15 volts (that's without me digging into the manual) anyhow when it gets up into that area your voltage regulator is failing and cooking your battery. Also possably your battrey is weak over working the alternator.
Another tip while if you are working in that area or doing a routine inspection trace the red wire coming out of the generator going to a red connector on the left side. It is around where the battery is. Should be easy to locate look for the red connector. Pull it apart and give it a good look. If you have been over charging that connect might need some attention. Here is a picture of mine. Looked OK plugged in but when pulled apart you can see some heat damage. When I changed out the regulator I was a 15.2 - 15.3 volts charging just for info.
(http://fjowners.com/gallery/7/1651_30_04_14_9_21_26.jpeg)
That panel looks nice, I might have to update mine ! Ummm :good2: always something..... :lol:
George
That connector shown in the picture is the cause of a lot of overcharge problems . just by fixing it can make all the deference in the amount of voltage to the battery.
Check with key on and not running the voltage at the battery and compare to voltage at alt reg. If not the same you have a wiring problem.
I have another ,,problem" :wacko3: from "WHAT IF..." category, and I have to ask:
What if I will just add wire from relay to original installation? I mean two cables (original and from relay) in one connector attached to coil.
Coils will get full power, and if anything bad will happen to relay, I don't need take off tank..........
I connected wires from relay to existing installation .... and now I know that this will make loop and current will flow until cables are connected :blush:
But I also discovered that drop in volts (12,2V to 11,8V right after ignition switch) is caused by ignition switch. And that is reason for overcharging problem (11,75V on IG wire in alternator).
Today I disassembled ignition switch:
First I drilled out 4 security screws:
(http://fjowners.com/gallery/8/4406_10_02_15_6_34_25_2.jpeg)
That how it looks inside:
(http://fjowners.com/gallery/8/medium_4406_10_02_15_6_34_24_0.jpeg)
And that was reason for voltage drop:
(http://fjowners.com/gallery/8/4406_10_02_15_6_34_24_1.jpeg)
I used allen screws for screw it back together.
Final test tomorrow but it looks promising for me....
^^^^ Nice detective work.
Those contacts look pretty tired/grooved. You may want to entertain replacing the switch all together. I bought one of these http://www.rpmracingca.com/proddetail.asp?prod=M%2FC%3Aroundkeyswitch (http://www.rpmracingca.com/proddetail.asp?prod=M%2FC%3Aroundkeyswitch) a while back. No confusing the key with this one for the OEM one for seat latch, or gas cap either.
Nice work and follow through ! :good2: If you think about it then do the same test after the new switch is in. Another one of those long term wear points that show up after 21-31 years of use. Outside the scope of troubleshooting a new bike. Thank you for the pictures.
George
Quote from: movenon on February 10, 2015, 12:13:20 PM
Nice work and follow through ! :good2: If you think about it then do the same test after the new switch is in. Another one of those long term wear points that show up after 21-31 years of use. Outside the scope of troubleshooting a new bike. Thank you for the pictures.
George
+1 :good2:
I just installed everything back without starting engine. I earned only 0,1 V rise in whole installation..... Better than nothing.
There is significant voltage drop with 12v current traveling thru the oem wiring harness and switches (like your ignition switch) and plug connectors.
All of this is bypassed with a dedicated *fat* home run to your battery and the requisite 20a or 30a spst relays installed.
Want to wake things up? Do your coils. Want to burn your eyes? Do your lights. Want to make your ears bleed? Do your (upgraded) horn.
...And...You don't need 3 separate home runs for the above...only one *fat* circuit to the battery is all you need.
Yeah it's a pretty simple concept. Think of it like a beer bong. Use 1/4" tubing (OEM wiring). Then use 1" tubing and worry about the beer shooting out your butt
I should finish my volage-story.
After all that fuss, charging voltage dropped from around 15V to 14,7V-14,8V. Still to much.
I added relay for voltage regulator and now I have stable 14,4V :dance2:
I'll trot out this old photo I've shared before. Headlight relay conversion on my '84. It's not a road shot but with the help of all that clutter you can clearly notice two things: the depth of light and the color of light. Casual observation from fellow riders when we are out at night is that my headlight is pretty friggin' bright - not surprising because 99% of the time they are ahead of me :sarcastic:
(http://i1296.photobucket.com/albums/ag17/Charliebrm/Lighting/headlight_relay_before_after_zpsa79b21bf.jpg) (http://s1296.photobucket.com/user/Charliebrm/media/Lighting/headlight_relay_before_after_zpsa79b21bf.jpg.html)
The ignition coil relay definitely affected starting. I had the same voltage drop as on the headlights. 10.4 vs 12.4. It starts faster and with more reliability.
Both are things we do around here for essentially every bike over the age of ten.
Contact corrosion increases resistance which increases heat which buggers up the plugs and it just gets worse. Same for control switches.
For male spade connectors, fold a thin strip of wet & dry sanding paper over a narrowed popsicle stick and work it in there. Or go to the dollar store and buy a bag of disposable manicure filing boards. They are thinner and easy to cut to any width you want.
And get a tube of dielectric grease to apply when ever re-connecting harnesses on bikes this old. I reach for that stuff more often than I need to look for my Loctite.
(http://i1296.photobucket.com/albums/ag17/Charliebrm/Forum%20images/Regulator_plug_zpsmtartrvy.jpg) (http://s1296.photobucket.com/user/Charliebrm/media/Forum%20images/Regulator_plug_zpsmtartrvy.jpg.html)
Good write up with the pictures. I know voltage effects the quartz bulbs a lot but out of curiosity will it improve an LED headlight ? Things to wonder about. It is about the only relay mod I haven't done.
George
I believe LEDs are either on full or off. There is a voltage threshold that will turn them on and if the voltage is less than that they will not come on.
However, a lower voltage could be over the LED threshold but the fan may not run fast enough to keep the heat down?
Quote from: FJ_Hooligan on May 05, 2015, 07:41:50 PM
I believe LEDs are either on full or off. There is a voltage threshold that will turn them on and if the voltage is less than that they will not come on.
However, a lower voltage could be over the LED threshold but the fan may not run fast enough to keep the heat down?
That's kind of what I thought. The fan on mine is small with a fair amount of heat sink. I think it only radiates aprox. 30 watts of energy. Think I will hold on the headlight relay mod.. I do like the coil mod though !
George
Hooli, FYI, there are dimable 120v LEDs although they don't dim thru the full range like incandescent.
Using a conventional rheostat dimmer switch, they dim from 100% to 30%
Dimmable LEDs are available, but it is the power supply, not the LED that makes them dimmable. They are dimmed by using a pulse width modulated signal to the LED. The brightness of the LED is determined by the amount of time the pulse is on, from perhaps 5% to 95%. But now you've added complex electronics (http://www.amazon.com/JACKYLED-Dimming-Controller-Lights-Ribbon/dp/B003L4KKF2/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1430884412&sr=8-1&keywords=pwm+led+dimmer) and an electrical noise source. How badly do you want this? :empathy:
Our traditional idea of a single clear plastic LED in a dome shape with two leads - anode and cathode - like the power light on your home stereo or TV, does have a threshold and should have a current limiter in its power path. It's either on or off.
e.g. building a home DIY circuit, you buy an LED, see on the package the current spec is 30 mA and the voltage threshold is 1.7 Volts, you do the math for a typical 9V or 12V battery or 4-AAA's and pick a resistor in series to limit current to 30 mA and you get the LED's full rated lumens output. Blah blah blah, it's been a long time since I had to do that.
But the LEDs for higher output light headlights are run from driver circuits that work from a large input range, eg. 5.5 Volts to 36 Volts DC and they deliver a constant output at a steady voltage and current. That's where a lot of the competition on technology is - making an efficient driver circuit to power the actual LED elements. Kind of like a voltage regulator in a vehicle takes care of the irregularities in alternator power so the ignition is running at a steady optimum, and as we know some VR's do it better and last longer than others.
A bike battery even putting out 8 Volts and a few Amps could run that driver at full design output.
QuoteHighly efficient, very powerful LEDs like the Cree XML2 are relatively inexpensive, and have lots of interesting uses. According to Cree, they can "deliver an unprecedented 1198 lumens at 116 lumens-per-watt efficacy at 3 A," with a maximum forward voltage somewhere around 3.15V.
All that said, I replaced my car's interior door and map lights with the same LED arrays I put in my FJ's dash and the ones in the car slowly dim when I lock the car, just like the incandescent bulbs do. I'm still looking into that and won't share a half ass guess but I have my ideas.
(http://i1296.photobucket.com/albums/ag17/Charliebrm/Lighting/Bulb_vs_LED_194_zps92c6fbda.jpg) (http://s1296.photobucket.com/user/Charliebrm/media/Lighting/Bulb_vs_LED_194_zps92c6fbda.jpg.html)
Below: Center bulb OEM 194 incandescent. Outer, my new gauge lights.
(http://i1296.photobucket.com/albums/ag17/Charliebrm/Lighting/Bulb_vs_LED_output_zps54172836.jpg) (http://s1296.photobucket.com/user/Charliebrm/media/Lighting/Bulb_vs_LED_output_zps54172836.jpg.html)
A note for anyone converting to LED's in there cluster. Because the led in that application is not dimable use the stock type bulb for the low fuel light.
Also before you bolt the cluster back in power it up to make sure all the LED's are installed correctly. The polarity has to be correct. Just notes along the way.
George
Quote from: movenon on May 05, 2015, 11:23:36 PM
A note for anyone converting to LED's in there cluster. Because the led in that application is not dimable use the stock type bulb for the low fuel light.
Also before you bolt the cluster back in power it up to make sure all the LED's are installed correctly. The polarity has to be correct. Just notes along the way.
George
Good points to know anytime. :good2: