I want to paint the removeable frame rails that run under the engine of my 1200. Is it possible to remove these and leave the engine in.
Quote from: krusty on December 16, 2014, 02:58:39 PM
I want to paint the removeable frame rails that run under the engine of my 1200. Is it possible to remove these and leave the engine in.
Yes, you may need to loosen the fasteners holding the foot pegs but you can remove them safely to paint them.
Quote from: FJmonkey on December 16, 2014, 03:00:38 PM
Quote from: krusty on December 16, 2014, 02:58:39 PM
I want to paint the removeable frame rails that run under the engine of my 1200. Is it possible to remove these and leave the engine in.
Yes, you may need to loosen the fasteners holding the foot pegs but you can remove them safely to paint them.
....and the shifter pivot, then the brake pedal, then unbolt the rear m/c, unscrew your side stand safety switch, then remove the aluminum side panels to get to the 4 rear cradle bolts (you don't have to remove the swing arm pivot bolt on the late model FJ's)
Then, remove the exhaust system and support the front part of the engine with a block on a floor jack, then remove the 6 front engine bolts and finally the 4 top cradle bolts.
I just did this yesterday. I found 3 of the 4 rear cradle bolts sheared off. :ireful:
After I "easy out" the broken bits ( why do they call it 'easy out'? Ain't nothing easy about it) I'm gonna drill and tap to replace the soft M8x1.25 button head bolts with some stainless M10x1.5 bolts.
The cradle is already sized for the M10's I wonder why Yamaha used the smaller M8's?
Quote from: Pat Conlon on December 16, 2014, 07:00:46 PM
Quote from: FJmonkey on December 16, 2014, 03:00:38 PM
Quote from: krusty on December 16, 2014, 02:58:39 PM
I want to paint the removeable frame rails that run under the engine of my 1200. Is it possible to remove these and leave the engine in.
Yes, you may need to loosen the fasteners holding the foot pegs but you can remove them safely to paint them.
....and the shifter pivot, then the brake pedal, then unbolt the rear m/c, unscrew your side stand safety switch, then remove the aluminum side panels to get to the 4 rear cradle bolts (you don't have to remove the swing arm pivot bolt on the late model FJ's)
Then, remove the exhaust system and support the front part of the engine with a block on a floor jack, then remove the 6 front engine bolts and finally the 4 top cradle bolts.
I just did this yesterday. I found 3 of the 4 rear cradle bolts sheared off. :ireful:
After I "easy out" the broken bits ( why do they call it 'easy out'? Ain't nothing easy about it) I'm gonna drill and tap to replace the soft M8x1.25 button head bolts with some stainless M10x1.5 bolts.
The cradle is already sized for the M10's I wonder why Yamaha used the smaller M8's?
Something vexes thee?....
Wow, 3 out 4 bolts sheared off ! Didn't know those lower arms were so optional ! Good catch. What was your first indication of a problem ?
George
Quote from: Pat Conlon on December 16, 2014, 07:00:46 PM
Quote from: FJmonkey on December 16, 2014, 03:00:38 PM
Quote from: krusty on December 16, 2014, 02:58:39 PM
I want to paint the removeable frame rails that run under the engine of my 1200. Is it possible to remove these and leave the engine in.
Yes, you may need to loosen the fasteners holding the foot pegs but you can remove them safely to paint them.
I just did this yesterday. I found 3 of the 4 rear cradle bolts sheared off. :ireful:
After I "easy out" the broken bits ( why do they call it 'easy out'? Ain't nothing easy about it) I'm gonna drill and tap to replace the soft M8x1.25 button head bolts with some stainless M10x1.5 bolts.
The cradle is already sized for the M10's I wonder why Yamaha used the smaller M8's?
I tried the "easy-out" method, to no avail. Wound up riding the bike over to RPM and Randy used his mig welder to tack a nut onto the stub and unscrew it. Only after significant heat did she let go of her blue-locktight grip. I hadn't considered his method, which was to weld across the inner edge of a nut and bridge it to the sheared off bolt in the hole. Then heat it up while twisting with a pair of vise grips. Worked like a charm, even after I had kluged it up with the easy-out.
Quote from: movenon on December 16, 2014, 07:35:51 PM
Wow, 3 out 4 bolts sheared off ! Didn't know those lower arms were so optional ! Good catch. What was your first indication of a problem ?
George
I found it by doing a tear down on the Texan '93 ABS bike. Lots of stuff to do...for sure.
Based on what I found, I'm going to check those lower frame bolts on my (Paul's) '92...
While I drill/tap one bike, I might as well do the other.
I had to put 10s in the 1350. Still have to do the 89 and the turbo bike.
Quote from: Pat Conlon on December 16, 2014, 08:04:20 PM
Quote from: movenon on December 16, 2014, 07:35:51 PM
Wow, 3 out 4 bolts sheared off ! Didn't know those lower arms were so optional ! Good catch. What was your first indication of a problem ?
George
I found it by doing a tear down on the Texan '93 ABS bike. Lots of stuff to do...for sure.
Based on what I found, I'm going to check those lower frame bolts on my (Paul's) '92...
While I drill/tap one bike, I might as well do the other.
I forgot you had that another bike. I see. When I bought my bike it had 1 bolt missing, the threads were stripped so I did the drill and tap program to that one bolt. Can't wait to see it when you are done. Will be prepared with sunglasses. :good2:
George
Quote from: Pat Conlon link=topic=13015.msg130264#msg130264 date=
I just did this yesterday. I found 3 of the 4 rear cradle bolts sheared off. :ireful:
/quote]
I found the same when I bought FJ#2, sort of makes sticking a jack under the front of the motor overkill. Ever since discovering that, I have let the motor hang from the rear bolts when fitting / removing.
I never rode it with 3 broken bolts but the PO must have. There was much evidence of movement over a very long time, rubbing, elongated holes and the remains of the broken studs all smoothed off.
When I went to bolt it all up with the motor, everything lined up perfectly. I wouldn't have been surprised if something had "spread"
Noel
Quote from: Pat Conlon on December 16, 2014, 07:00:46 PM
Quote from: FJmonkey on December 16, 2014, 03:00:38 PM
Quote from: krusty on December 16, 2014, 02:58:39 PM
I want to paint the removeable frame rails that run under the engine of my 1200. Is it possible to remove these and leave the engine in.
Yes, you may need to loosen the fasteners holding the foot pegs but you can remove them safely to paint them.
....and the shifter pivot, then the brake pedal, then unbolt the rear m/c, unscrew your side stand safety switch, then remove the aluminum side panels to get to the 4 rear cradle bolts (you don't have to remove the swing arm pivot bolt on the late model FJ's)
Then, remove the exhaust system and support the front part of the engine with a block on a floor jack, then remove the 6 front engine bolts and finally the 4 top cradle bolts.
I just did this yesterday. I found 3 of the 4 rear cradle bolts sheared off. :ireful:
After I "easy out" the broken bits ( why do they call it 'easy out'? Ain't nothing easy about it) I'm gonna drill and tap to replace the soft M8x1.25 button head bolts with some stainless M10x1.5 bolts.
The cradle is already sized for the M10's I wonder why Yamaha used the smaller M8's?
Are you sure Stainless is the way to go in that position? I wouldn`t use stainless on the drive side especially. I`m still trying to figure why these bolts break and I reckon that back adjusting screw direct on the motor plays a part. (popcorn)
Pat - just be sure to drill and tap into the frame directly. DO NOT attempt to "over engineer" the repair/upgrade by installing threaded inserts ... I did that years ago and have regretted in many times since! I figured a threaded insert would be more durable than simply tapping the frame - wrong! There's not enough meat in the frame to support the insert. The repair to the botched repair is pretty ugly... It definately takes age and experience to fix what you buggered up years ago with youth and enthusiasm! :drinks:
Quote from: fj1289 on December 17, 2014, 08:02:50 AM
Pat - just be sure to drill and tap into the frame directly. DO NOT attempt to "over engineer" the repair/upgrade by installing threaded inserts ... I did that years ago and have regretted in many times since! I figured a threaded insert would be more durable than simply tapping the frame - wrong! There's not enough meat in the frame to support the insert. The repair to the botched repair is pretty ugly... It definately takes age and experience to fix what you buggered up years ago with youth and enthusiasm! :drinks:
I just drilled and tapped the next size up, never had a problem. Used high tensile flanged bolts, elbow torqued them and no loctite. I check them periodically, good as the day I put them in.
Noel
The properties of stainless steel already make the same size bolt more resistant to shear failure. Going up a bolt size makes it that much stronger.
Quote from: FJmonkey on December 17, 2014, 09:29:11 AM
The properties of stainless steel already make the same size bolt more resistant to shear failure. Going up a bolt size makes it that much stronger.
Exactly my thinking Mark. The 10.2 grade stainless is a step up from those oem Yamaha M8's
Yes, a direct drill and tap into the frame, no inserts. Paul Lawson made some drill bushings which fit into the cradle holes that hold the drill bit dead nuts center for drilling into the frame.
Doug, I'm thinking about your comment on not using stainless bolts.
Now here's the deal... The Yamaha engineers are smart folks.
Why would they design a lower cradle sized for M10 bolts and only put in M8's? ...and not a high grade steel M8's at that. It is a sloppy fit.
This is in a newly designed frame for the rubber mounted late model FJ's. New stuff here. Fresh start.
Could it be a purposely designed weak link? These soft M8's shear off before the frame cracks, by design?
Could it be a purposely designed weak link? These soft M8's shear off before the frame cracks, by design?
[/quote]
Pat,
On my 92 two bolts were sheared off (one on each side) and the frame was cracked on the left side.
Jeff
Quote from: Pat Conlon on December 17, 2014, 11:11:22 AM
Could it be a purposely designed weak link? These soft M8's shear off before the frame cracks, by design?
Maybe some of that "designed in flex" to avoid chatter, like the MotoGP bikes?
Quote from: Pat Conlon on December 16, 2014, 07:00:46 PM
I just did this yesterday. I found 3 of the 4 rear cradle bolts sheared off. :ireful:
After I "easy out" the broken bits ( why do they call it 'easy out'? Ain't nothing easy about it) I'm gonna drill and tap to replace the soft M8x1.25 button head bolts with some stainless M10x1.5 bolts.
The cradle is already sized for the M10's I wonder why Yamaha used the smaller M8's?
Holy wow Pat! 3 out of 4 bolts sheared off!!?? I'm paranoid now. Did you have a clue something was wrong? What happens when 4 of 4 bolts shear off?
I get the feeling that I should be checking these out on my bike for myself. Great directions on how to approach the job and what will be encountered. Any further advice is welcomed!
Mark M
Wow this is a great annual maintenance tip to add to the spring list. :mail1:
Check engine mount bolts.
Quote from: Mark Olson on December 17, 2014, 03:18:32 PM
Wow this is a great annual maintenance tip to add to the spring list. :mail1:
Check engine mount bolts.
+1 :good2:
George
Quote from: Pat Conlon on December 17, 2014, 11:11:22 AM
Quote from: FJmonkey on December 17, 2014, 09:29:11 AM
The properties of stainless steel already make the same size bolt more resistant to shear failure. Going up a bolt size makes it that much stronger.
Exactly my thinking Mark. The 10.2 grade stainless is a step up from those oem Yamaha M8's
Yes, a direct drill and tap into the frame, no inserts. Paul Lawson made some drill bushings which fit into the cradle holes that hold the drill bit dead nuts center for drilling into the frame.
Doug, I'm thinking about your comment on not using stainless bolts.
Now here's the deal... The Yamaha engineers are smart folks.
Why would they design a lower cradle sized for M10 bolts and only put in M8's? ...and not a high grade steel M8's at that. It is a sloppy fit.
This is in a newly designed frame for the rubber mounted late model FJ's. New stuff here. Fresh start.
Could it be a purposely designed weak link? These soft M8's shear off before the frame cracks, by design?
mmmm....I hear ya Pat. I replaced existing Stainless bolts on my sidecar front end with hardened steel (can`t remember the grade) cause my understanding and received advice, is they have a little flex and less likely to sheer....which sounds ridiculous, but have been told such a number of times. But no matter, unless we can work out why that adjusting nut /screw is there on the motor rear, and what is it`s correct adjustment, I don`t think our process of elimination can reach a logical conclusion on why those bolts break. imho :drinks:
On my bike that rear adjustable engine bolt just spins, the threads are gone. One day I will drop the engine out and redo/check everything. (Might help get me to 100% vibe elimination)
Quote from: The General on December 17, 2014, 06:57:34 PM
But no matter, unless we can work out why that adjusting nut /screw is there on the motor rear, and what is it`s correct adjustment, I don`t think our process of elimination can reach a logical conclusion on why those bolts break. imho :drinks:
Doug, on my bikes the screw does not and cannot be made to contact the engine in the resting position.
My theory is it's a buffer to limit the torsional movement of the motor in the rubber mounts under extreme load.
With the sprocket well to the left of the centreline, the engine will want to twist when you dump the clutch. I believe it is no coincidence that stop is in line with the sprocket.
The clearance is somewhere around what you might expect from movement under extreme conditions (big and fast clutch dump in first)
I would imagine the adjustment to be no more than a mm or two and no contact under normal riding conditions.
If these are only on the rubber mounted models, it would add some weight to this theory.
It is also reasonable that if this is not set correctly, the load is taken on the frame, it's got to be taken somewhere, there is a huge amount of torque to harness, hence the sheared bolts and cracked frames.
Well, that's my theory. (popcorn)
Noel
Mark M, Mark O, George and others, if you find any broken rear cradle bolts and you wish to drill/tap to M10 X1.5 bolts, keep me in mind, I have a drill bushing you can use, sized for the correct 8.50mm drill bit.
This little bugger keeps the drill bit centered in the cradle holes as you drill into the frame.
Noel, if torque twist is the culprit (I also think so) wouldn't the bolts just shear on one side of the cradle?
I just can't get over that sloppy fit with the M8's in M10 cradle holes.
Good discussion, thanks!
Quote from: Pat Conlon on December 18, 2014, 12:08:26 AM
Noel, if torque twist is the culprit (I also think so) wouldn't the bolts just shear on one side of the cradle?
I just can't get over that sloppy fit with the M8's in M10 cradle holes.
Good discussion, thanks!
Pat, this was not a well thought out theory, just off the cuff.
The bolt
would just shear on one side and then the load would transfer (and be increased) to the remaining bolts and then the next one shears because it is now taking the load and then the next one............
I believe there would be a point (3 bolts?) where the frame now has sufficient flex to relieve the load on the remaining bolt.
All three bolts are not going to break at once, only as the load is transferred to them, a chain reaction over time.
The motor wants to naturally rotate around the sprocket because the wheel on the ground is providing resistance, it also wants to twist because the output shaft is off centre. What forces are exerted in what direction and in what proportion is anyone's guess.
The adjuster, I imagine, limits that movement so as to not over stress the rubber mounts.
As for the "sloppy" hole that seems to trouble you. Bolt shafts are never a machine fit through the non threaded piece and always have tolerance. Ever noticed how much you can move a car head around with bolts in but not tightened?
Bolts in this application clamp the pieces together, they don't align them, the clamping secures the location, not the bolt.
It wouldn't surprise me if the holes were a little on the large side by design to provide some tolerance for experienced or anticipated manufacturing discrepancies.
Maybe achieving a fine tolerance fit at that join couldn't happen, it's quite a long piece, joined to another piece that is welded to another piece.....
A lot of stuff on the FJ's has the appearance of being hand done rather than machine done, including some of the welds.
All food for thought........ hmmmmm, snag in bread.......it's dinner time here, I'm off, it will be interesting to see what comes of this discussion but I'm not plagued by the need to know. If there is no outcome, as there was last time the General raised this, I won't lose any sleep.
This also provides a rare (me not knowing it all) opportunity for some punk to put a notch in his belt and prove me wrong. :biggrin:
Noel
Quote from: ribbert on December 17, 2014, 09:30:33 PM
Quote from: The General on December 17, 2014, 06:57:34 PM
But no matter, unless we can work out why that adjusting nut /screw is there on the motor rear, and what is it`s correct adjustment, I don`t think our process of elimination can reach a logical conclusion on why those bolts break. imho :drinks:
Doug, on my bikes the screw does not and cannot be made to contact the engine in the resting position.
My theory is it's a buffer to limit the torsional movement of the motor in the rubber mounts under extreme load.
With the sprocket well to the left of the centreline, the engine will want to twist when you dump the clutch. I believe it is no coincidence that stop is in line with the sprocket. (Good point...never thought of that!)
The clearance is somewhere around what you might expect from movement under extreme conditions (big and fast clutch dump in first)
I would imagine the adjustment to be no more than a mm or two and no contact under normal riding conditions. (my thoughts too!)
If these are only on the rubber mounted models, it would add some weight to this theory. ( (popcorn))
It is also reasonable that if this is not set correctly, the load is taken on the frame, it's got to be taken somewhere, there is a huge amount of torque to harness, hence the sheared bolts and cracked frames.
Well, that's my theory. (popcorn)
Noel
Thanks Noel, my focus is now on info re correct setting of that screw. :drinks:
With reference to the schematic below, could someone please clarify which bolts are the rear cradle bolts ? 15 & 16 ??
Many thanks,
Mark M
(http://fjowners.com/gallery/8/150_18_12_14_8_47_34.gif)
15 and 16
Thanks Pat.
Did the head of the bolts turn out with little effort revealing an obviously sheered off bolt?
If I put a medium amount of counterclockwise torque on the bolt and it doesn't turn out, would I be relatively safe to assume the bolts are OK?
I'm trying to avoid my next post starting with, 'well, they weren't sheered off when I got there, but they sure as hell are now' .
thanks,
Mark M
Of the 3 that were broken, 2 were missing the button heads and the 3rd button head fell out when I removed the aluminum side plates. The breaks were flush to the frame.
These button heads are soft, kinda like your oem rotor bolts. I would use butane heat on the frame and a impact driver to get them broken loose. They are easy to deform with a Allen wrench...
Still not to worry, if you do deform them...you can slot the button head with your Dremel and try again with your impact driver, if that fails at least the button head's Allen holes provide a neat centering function for your drill bit when you have to 'easy out' them.
Working with a easy out on the broken bolts (without the button head) is a different matter. It's hard to get the drill bit centered on the broken piece...That's where the drill bushing comes into play.
Perfect, thanks once again. I just want to make sure they are not sheered off so if I find the heads still intact I'm going to leave well enough alone and ride with a clear mind next summer knowing that my frame isn't coming apart!
Happy trails,
Mark M
Yea, if the heads are there just snug them, if they don't move you're ok....for now.
Quote from: Pat Conlon on December 18, 2014, 10:36:54 AM
I would use butane heat on the frame and a impact driver to get them broken loose.
Pat, as I have mentioned before, I work on pre-war cars and some up to 90+ years old. Many have not been in use for decades and some pulled out of paddocks. Removing difficult bolts and studs is a process I have been working at for years.
Butane does not get hot enough!
I got tired of paying bottle rental (nearly $400/year) on the oxy/acetaline and ditched it for a year. Bad choice.
If it comes out with butane heat, it was going to come out easy anyway.
I also reckon impact drivers are much the same, if they loosen the bolt, it was never that tight. They are a tool specifically designed to strip Philips heads.
There are many methods using standard workshop tools that are far more effective at loosening stubborn bolts and screws.
Noel
On the little bolt in a big hole topic... I don't think that there is any mysterious purpose here. As Ribbert said there is often a loose tolerance in these things and from my experience every bike I have ever worked on with a similar motor cradle has had alot of slop. I believe this is intended for ease of assembly due to differences in frames and tolerance stackup.
On my CB900F the frame cradle (one side) had holes so loose that I sourced bronze bushings to take up the slack. It took some time with heat and a big ass hammer/bar to get the cradle to fit back on, but the handling of the bike inproved noticeably.
Quote from: ribbert on December 19, 2014, 05:06:02 AM
....There are many methods using standard workshop tools that are far more effective at loosening stubborn bolts and screws.
Ok Noel, your turn...what would you recommend on frozen soft button head frame bolts? I gave it my best shot....step up to the plate.
Quote from: Pat Conlon on December 19, 2014, 07:10:02 PM
Quote from: ribbert on December 19, 2014, 05:06:02 AM
....There are many methods using standard workshop tools that are far more effective at loosening stubborn bolts and screws.
Ok Noel, your turn...what would you recommend on frozen soft button head frame bolts? I gave it my best shot....step up to the plate.
Effective techniques for stubborn bolt/screw removal involve the same principle as a hammer driver but applied more efficiently, both in twisting action and impact.
To answer your specific question, I would use a good fitting socket and long bar, lean heavily on the bar and belt the knuckle on the bar (directly over the socket) with the hammer. That's it.
In general the idea is to apply torque while hitting, just the same as the hammer driver is designed to do doesn't do very well.
The problem I see with hammer drivers it the design dulls the impact, you are hitting a spring and spiral drive. The most underestimated part of loosening bolts is the hammer blow.
Only last night, and with this fresh in my mind, I had some Allen heads that reached the point of bending the tool without cracking, a couple of sharp blows from a hammer and they released easily. It is the sharpness of the blow, not the force of it, that breaks the join.
The sort of blow needed cannot be delivered through a wooden mallet, nylon hammer, or plastic screw driver handle. It's like dropping something or falling onto a concrete floor vs a timber floor. They're both hard but concrete will break or dent a lot more things or hurt a lot more.
Good purchase can often be had on a chewed up nut or bolt by hammering on a socket of a different type, such as Whitworth or AF onto a metric nut. There is often a size just a whisker smaller.
If beyond hope, vice grips are not a really good choice because the tension is fixed. I prefer a smallish set of plumbers stilsons that tighten as force is applied, the harder you turn, the tighter they get.
Steel shaft screw drivers are a favourite, with steel shaft extending through to the tip of the handle. These deliver a great blow to a screw head. This whole process is useless unless the piece you are hitting is solid. It won't work with carbies sitting in your lap or on handle bar switches, too springy, and once again, the sharpness is lost from the blow. A direct hammer blow to PH screws also closes over the head of the screw a little making for a better fit.
The right screw driver is essential. I have PH's by the dozen and the fit varies, but a couple of them grip like there is no tomorrow and this makes a huge difference.
Heat is something I never need to resort to on modern vehicles (that's a relative term and applies to anything under 60 yo) and is a last resort on very old, poorly stored or unused vehicles.
Not butchering the head makes life a lot easier. You should be able to feel when a tool is about to let go and if it hasn't released at that point, STOP, while you have something left to work with, and move onto another technique.
Using the free play in the knuckle of your long bar can provide a shock that will help loosen bolts that aren't too tight, either by hitting with the palm of your hand or a hammer
The degree of success of all these methods is, as Burns said, largely a matter of feel and experience. I'm sure it is, but there is only one way to get it and I have found these techniques to work well 1000's of times while always looking to improve them.
Good grip, plenty of torque and a few well place hammer blows will release pretty much anything you are likely to come across on the FJ.
If you are thinking that's exactly what a hammer driver does, it's not, it's what it's designed to do but fails to deliver.
If anyone wishes to discuss a specific problem in more detail I am happy to help if I can. If you are just looking for something to pick holes in and generally be a nuisance don't bother. If you have something constructive to add, great.
As testament to the effectiveness of the hammer blow (other than last nights experience) I was recently brought an old engine that attempts to remove the flywheel and pulley on had destroyed several pullers. A tyre lever (another favourite tool) under each side with a lot of pressure and one almighty belt with a hammer in the centre (on the shaft it was mounted to) and the thing just popped off.
This is just a broad, in principle suggestion for stubborn bolt/screw removal as each case can be different and has it's own variations in the best way to attack it.
Preserving the head and knowing when what you are doing is not working and stopping before you destroy it is always going to make the job easier.
Snapped off ezy-outs are about as bad as gets, but that's a whole other topic.
Noel
Pat,
Is there any chance that a previous owner used a Loctite-style product that requires excessive heat before it releases? We've encountered this in the shop on more than one occasion.
As soft as the bolts are, they should drill out pretty easily. (Aren't they made of cheese? ...or is this only the carb screws?)
Steve
Thank you Noel, good advice.
Steve, I don't know if the PO used thread locker, 3 of the 4 bolts were sheared off. The sole surviving bolt just had corrosion on it, no thread locker that I could see....'easy out' the broken bits and drill/tap for M10's is the plan.
Quote from: Pat Conlon on December 23, 2014, 11:19:00 AM
...'easy out' the broken bits and drill/tap for M10's is the plan.
If you're already planning to drill oversize, then skip the screw extractor. If (and when) it breaks, it's only going to compound the problem.
To quote Wicked-pedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Screw_extractor (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Screw_extractor)
"The tools are made of very hard, brittle steel; they can break off inside the screw if too much torque is applied, making the removal much more difficult."
This advice also comes from Al, our shop owner (and LONGTIME machinist). He advises to NEVER use screw extractors. Customers come to us as a last resort. Milling hardened extractors out of a part with carbide isn't cheap.
You're dealing with a broken steel bolt that can be drilled. Add a core of broken, _HARDENED_ Easy Out, and now it can't (at least, not with the typical home tool set).
These are just offhand thoughts from the machine shop. At lease you're getting your money's worth! :hi:
Steve
Yea, I hear you...the problem with the easy out process is getting the pilot drill centered on the broken pieces (buried in the frame)
When I started this process if I had a centering bushing for the pilot drill it would have been easier to center the holes.
I got the easy out holes drilled thru on all 3 pieces, abet off centered. I've been working with the easy out taps (both straight edge and spiraled) but I can't get the broken studs to budge.
Plan B: Go with bigger bolts
I'll skip the easy out process just out of the fear of dealing with a broken tap. I'll just drill out the old pieces and enlarge the frame holes.
I now have a centering bushing to use on the new 8.5mm drill bit needed for tapping the new M10x1.5 threads.
Pat, before you start, go to McMaster-Carr http://www.mcmaster.com/# (http://www.mcmaster.com/#) and order yourself some left handed drill bits. Beats the snot out of EZ outs, and YOU WILL get results!
Ed
Thanks Eddie, will do... :good2:
Quote from: Steve_in_Florida on December 23, 2014, 11:50:31 AM
Quote from: Pat Conlon on December 23, 2014, 11:19:00 AM
...'easy out' the broken bits and drill/tap for M10's is the plan.
If you're already planning to drill oversize, then skip the screw extractor. If (and when) it breaks, it's only going to compound the problem.
To quote Wicked-pedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Screw_extractor (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Screw_extractor)
"The tools are made of very hard, brittle steel; they can break off inside the screw if too much torque is applied, making the removal much more difficult."
This advice also comes from Al, our shop owner (and LONGTIME machinist). He advises to NEVER use screw extractors. Customers come to us as a last resort. Milling hardened extractors out of a part with carbide isn't cheap.
You're dealing with a broken steel bolt that can be drilled. Add a core of broken, _HARDENED_ Easy Out, and now it can't (at least, not with the typical home tool set).
These are just offhand thoughts from the machine shop. At lease you're getting your money's worth! :hi:
Steve
I agree Steve....esp re ezi outs.
I totally researched the prob before deciding to buy the top parallel fluted extractor (not made in China) for same broken bolt.
Per your linked quote: Straight fluted extractors have less wedging effect than tapered screw extractors, so have less tendency to lock the screws into place. A further form is a parallel fluted extractor, with no taper at all and thus no wedging. These work well, but have the drawback of requiring the pilot hole to be drilled to a precise size. This size is often non-standard for most drill sets, requiring a dedicated drill bit to be supplied with the kit.
With hardly any real and straight torque applied to the extractor, I broke it off! (The leverage handle was a total of only 4 inches!)....now I couldn`t go ahead with plan B...reverse drills. (bugger!)
Then I discovered a mobile machinist in Brisbane. Apparently all the bike shops use him and many car mechanics find him to be the most economical solution before any attempt to do it themselves.. Prob was, his travel time from Brissie was too costly & the Fj was still in bits & difficult to trailer....Luckily another job came up near to my place eventually (Car exhaust manifold broken bolt) and I booked him in free of travel fee.
His fix was a pointed carbide grinder, (less diameter than the bolt of course.) hand held air drive followed by a larger drill and Tap. (It was he that told me not to use stainless steel and actually quoted the level of hardness of the bolt to buy....I even took pics of his work in progress.....I`ll see if I can find those details here amongst the rubbish!..if I can ever give it priority...I hate great weather all year round, sometimes!).
The pointed bit was good to make a starting point for reverse drills when required, and he reckoned an extractor would seldom have enough torque due to the nature of that bolt, dissimilar metal content etc. He only charged me for the 15 minutes he took to grind it out, then drill & tap the larger hole, but I managed to get another half an hour of his interesting methods over coffee. (thought seriously of buying his carbide grinder bit for future shared use,...they`re about $80 here, he told me.) :drinks:
Noel is correct , you have to smack it with a hammer first (to get it's attention) for the shock value.
I use a old 3/8 extension as a drift and a short handled sledge hammer .
broken bolt removal can be a pain . If you use heat to break the loctite ,follow with an ice cube and the hot/cold effect will cause it to loosen up.
Always use a center punch before drilling and start with a drill bit smaller than what is required for the easy out . This way you will work up to the size needed.
The left handed drill bits rule. (thanks Ed).
Back in the day when I worked as an engine machinist .
(When you gave up and brought it to the machine shop to have a broken bolt removed , It ended up on my workbench.)
That's my .02 spend it wisely.
Hey Doug,
Thats what I need. I had a drill bit snap when I was trying to remove the broken bolt and that has made the problem worse. Frame rail is now hanging on with one bolt.Merry xmas to you and the family
WOW. What can I say. My initial enquiry sure elicited a heap of info.
Go the answer I needed then lots of good stuff. I'm now a little hesitant on removing these rails as there is a lot of surface corrosion on this bike (salt air). Luckily though, so far, I've found it to be supeficial. Will need to be careful.
A few days ago I had to remove the discs off the front wheel. Those bolts were TIGHT allen heads. The first one I tried I didn't get the key in straight and slightly burred it. This is where the whacking came in, it reshaped the socket so that I could get a good purchase on it. Eventually I needed heat along with the whack to get these bolts out and I found they had copious amounts of blue Loctite on them.
Thanks guys. Merry Christmas. It's Christmas day today I'm still working on the bike.
Effective techniques for stubborn bolt/screw removal involve the same principle as a hammer driver but applied more efficiently, both in twisting action and impact.
To answer your specific question, I would use a good fitting socket and long bar, lean heavily on the bar and belt the knuckle on the bar (directly over the socket) with the hammer. That's it.
In general the idea is to apply torque while hitting, just the same as the hammer driver is designed to do doesn't do very well.
The problem I see with hammer drivers it the design dulls the impact, you are hitting a spring and spiral drive. The most underestimated part of loosening bolts is the hammer blow.
Only last night, and with this fresh in my mind, I had some Allen heads that reached the point of bending the tool without cracking, a couple of sharp blows from a hammer and they released easily. It is the sharpness of the blow, not the force of it, that breaks the join.
The sort of blow needed cannot be delivered through a wooden mallet, nylon hammer, or plastic screw driver handle. It's like dropping something or falling onto a concrete floor vs a timber floor. They're both hard but concrete will break or dent a lot more things or hurt a lot more.
Good purchase can often be had on a chewed up nut or bolt by hammering on a socket of a different type, such as Whitworth or AF onto a metric nut. There is often a size just a whisker smaller.
If beyond hope, vice grips are not a really good choice because the tension is fixed. I prefer a smallish set of plumbers stilsons that tighten as force is applied, the harder you turn, the tighter they get.
Steel shaft screw drivers are a favourite, with steel shaft extending through to the tip of the handle. These deliver a great blow to a screw head. This whole process is useless unless the piece you are hitting is solid. It won't work with carbies sitting in your lap or on handle bar switches, too springy, and once again, the sharpness is lost from the blow. A direct hammer blow to PH screws also closes over the head of the screw a little making for a better fit.
The right screw driver is essential. I have PH's by the dozen and the fit varies, but a couple of them grip like there is no tomorrow and this makes a huge difference.
Heat is something I never need to resort to on modern vehicles (that's a relative term and applies to anything under 60 yo) and is a last resort on very old, poorly stored or unused vehicles.
Not butchering the head makes life a lot easier. You should be able to feel when a tool is about to let go and if it hasn't released at that point, STOP, while you have something left to work with, and move onto another technique.
Using the free play in the knuckle of your long bar can provide a shock that will help loosen bolts that aren't too tight, either by hitting with the palm of your hand or a hammer
The degree of success of all these methods is, as Burns said, largely a matter of feel and experience. I'm sure it is, but there is only one way to get it and I have found these techniques to work well 1000's of times while always looking to improve them.
Good grip, plenty of torque and a few well place hammer blows will release pretty much anything you are likely to come across on the FJ.
If you are thinking that's exactly what a hammer driver does, it's not, it's what it's designed to do but fails to deliver.
If anyone wishes to discuss a specific problem in more detail I am happy to help if I can. If you are just looking for something to pick holes in and generally be a nuisance don't bother. If you have something constructive to add, great.
As testament to the effectiveness of the hammer blow (other than last nights experience) I was recently brought an old engine that attempts to remove the flywheel and pulley on had destroyed several pullers. A tyre lever (another favourite tool) under each side with a lot of pressure and one almighty belt with a hammer in the centre (on the shaft it was mounted to) and the thing just popped off.
This is just a broad, in principle suggestion for stubborn bolt/screw removal as each case can be different and has it's own variations in the best way to attack it.
Preserving the head and knowing when what you are doing is not working and stopping before you destroy it is always going to make the job easier.
Snapped off ezy-outs are about as bad as gets, but that's a whole other topic.
Noel
I cut and pasted these tips and put it in my "Tech tips" folder. Thanks.
I would only add (1 cent's worth/statement of the obvious), that penetrating oils should be applied and given some soak time before resorting to brute force.
OK its time for an update on the frame rails. Since my initial post on this topic I have successfully removed both. They've now been wire brushed back to clean metal and repainted with Rustguard Aluminum. I also removed the big alloy plates each side that hold the engine rails and foot pegs etc. A mate polished these for me as a favour. They're all back together now. With all this complete it's almost ready for a road test (apart from lighting problem in another thread).
It had a stuck clutch so today with the above done, it was time to tackle it. This turned out a little easier than expected. I ran the motor up to operating temp to get the oil nice and hot and then, with the bike on the main stand, selected first gear. Next, while holding the clutch lever in and with the rear wheel spinning, started jabbing the rear brake. After about half a dozen attempts the wheel stopped spinning. Clutch freed, yippee. Shifted in and out of gear a few times and all is good.
Its time for its first run up the road but before that I need to secure the front fender properly as a couple of the mounting tabs are broken off - typical with FJs. Wont be today though due to time constraint. We have a VJMC fish & chip ride to Patonga tomorrow on my new 1200 so maybe after that in the afternoon.
(//)
Great job on the frame rails--they look like new. Makes the clutch cover look shoddy now. Next time you change oil pull it off and remove the center for polish and the outside for paint. Dave
Quote from: krusty on February 28, 2015, 02:22:46 AM
It had a stuck clutch so today with the above done, it was time to tackle it. This turned out a little easier than expected. I ran the motor up to operating temp to get the oil nice and hot and then, with the bike on the main stand, selected first gear. Next, while holding the clutch lever in and with the rear wheel spinning, started jabbing the rear brake. After about half a dozen attempts the wheel stopped spinning. Clutch freed, yippee. Shifted in and out of gear a few times and all is good.
(//)
Krusty, what you have described is normal. Try and start the bike in gear cold and it will lurch forward. However, start it in neutral and select first a few moments later and all is well.
With the rear wheel raised, it is normal for the back wheel to spin in gear, it is normal for it to do it in neutral. Without load on the wheel the thickness of the oil, especially when cold, is enough to spin the gearbox and transmit drive to the wheel.
If you were to repeat the scenario you describe, I think you will find it does the same thing every time.
IMO the brake jabbing was not he solution but the time spent with the motor running while doing it.
If I try and start my bike cold in gear it will lurch forward. Every other start of the day in gear is fine, it's just the first one of the day when it's cold.
I believe they all do it, certainly all the ones I've ridden do.
Noel
Thanks Noel. What I was describing is freeing the clutch after a 12 year lay up.
On removing broke off bolts best thing Ive ever used is a torx bit. Drill hole just enough to where the teeth wont go into hole and knock it in with a hammer, the bit expands at the end of cut helping to lock it in and beating it in loosens the threads. I have extracted rung head bolts doing this with head still on (try that with an easy out). Ive used carquest brand torx for this but snap on is less likely to slip or shear.
Just want to add my two cents about stubborn fasteners. All my shit is old, our winters are chalked full of salt and the underneath of old vehicles become like the titanic if not oiled and looked after. So for years I have worked on old rusted rotting vehicles keeping them barely alive by fighting with rusty rounded sheared seized cracked bolts nuts and studs, brake lines, bleeders etc etc,curse words were always muttered and I was most often on my back looking up as the shit falls into your face, some of you are now saying " been there done that "! I hate to admit I still do it as I dont have a garage that holds a vehicle. Anyway here is the two cents. Because of rust and seized fasteners heat won for me over a well place blow from my favorite hammer and finally the meat of this post. The trick when using heat is to use Bee's Wax, heat the area up and put Bee's Wax or even a candle to the area and the fastener will suck the bee's wax in like soldering a copper pipe. I was told this by a retired mechanic years ago and has worked great when it can be used! If your using heat next time, try bee's wax, it works great! Canadian engineering at its best. :good:
Quote from: gumby302ho on April 02, 2015, 01:09:32 PM
Just want to add my two cents about stubborn fasteners. All my shit is old, our winters are chalked full of salt and the underneath of old vehicles become like the titanic if not oiled and looked after. So for years I have worked on old rusted rotting vehicles keeping them barely alive by fighting with rusty rounded sheared seized cracked bolts nuts and studs, brake lines, bleeders etc etc,curse words were always muttered and I was most often on my back looking up as the shit falls into your face, some of you are now saying " been there done that "! I hate to admit I still do it as I dont have a garage that holds a vehicle. Anyway here is the two cents. Because of rust and seized fasteners heat won for me over a well place blow from my favorite hammer and finally the meat of this post. The trick when using heat is to use Bee's Wax, heat the area up and put Bee's Wax or even a candle to the area and the fastener will suck the bee's wax in like soldering a copper pipe. I was told this by a retired mechanic years ago and has worked great when it can be used! If your using heat next time, try bee's wax, it works great! Canadian engineering at its best. :good:
Will have to try that,being 200 yds off I95 I have a fair amount of vehicles that come from up north especially campers (yee haw). Thanks.
Quote from: ADHD Perfected on April 01, 2015, 11:55:27 PM
On removing broke off bolts best thing Ive ever used is a torx bit. Drill hole just enough to where the teeth wont go into hole and knock it in with a hammer, the bit expands at the end of cut helping to lock it in and beating it in loosens the threads. I have extracted rung head bolts doing this with head still on (try that with an easy out). Ive used carquest brand torx for this but snap on is less likely to slip or shear.
That is a really excellent tip and worthy of more acknowledgement than it got.
It is basically the same principle as what I have found to be the best purpose made extractors, uniform fluted shank to spread the load over the entire bit, and I'm a big believer in hammer blows.
Excellent!
Noel