In Florida on a mini vacation and I see bikers riding without helmets. ..wow not me there is no way I'd ride without a helmet. My wife's cousin is a nurse in Tampa and she told me they call those people organ donors...but hell ya love to live here to be able to ride everyday!
Quote from: Sabre093 on November 16, 2014, 09:23:14 AM
In Florida on a mini vacation...
Really?? Whereabouts?
Lemme guess. DISNEY? Universal? Sea World?
If so, I'm in the area, and have more than one RUNNING FJ!
How long are you here?
Let me know, I'll make time if it'll fit your schedule and you're close enough.
Steve
Oh, about the helmet thing. Yes, Florida gives you a choice. The idea is to MAKE THE RIGHT CHOICE! Some don't.
When I visit Illinois a few times a year I see the few riding with no helmet. Many do wear them, I just try to remember that Darwin almost got it right. These guys and gals have most likely already had children.
Quote from: FJmonkey on November 16, 2014, 09:38:08 AM
When I visit Illinois a few times a year I see the few riding with no helmet. Many do wear them, I just try to remember that Darwin almost got it right. These guys and gals have most likely already had children.
Texas also gives you a choice. Most without helmets are young male Hardley riders so there is a good chance to improve the gene pool. Dave
Quote from: TexasDave on November 16, 2014, 10:32:35 AM
When I visit Illinois a few times a year I see the few riding with no helmet. Many do wear them, I just try to remember that Darwin almost got it right. These guys and gals have most likely already had children.
Texas also gives you a choice. Most without helmets are young male Hardley riders so there is a good chance to improve the gene pool. Dave
Thanks, that gives me a little hope for humanity. However I am not advocating against free choice. I just think we need to remove all the warning labels and let the chips fall as they may....
I was in San Diego last Saturday and was surprised at how many guys on Harley's actually wore full face helmets. In Pennsylvania last summer we didn't see a single Harley rider with a helmet of any kind. Funny how in different parts of the country you see different things.
Steve we're in Tampa near Whiskey Joe's we are flying out Monday
With Iowa still not having a helmet law, I grew up not wearing, much in the same way we never wore seat belts before there was a law, it was looked on as "unnecessary".
Times have changed, lessons learned, accidents happened, laws have changed and I have grown up just a little and now ride with a helmet 100% of the time. Seat belt law now has made it second nature to buckle up. ( That and very stiff fines!)
Part of it has to do with the style of motorcycle I'm riding, but more so, I realize the obvious protection a helmet provides, whether its is protection from wind, rain, bugs, or in the event of an off motorcycle tumble, a helmet just makes sense.
And with this knowledge, it kills me that when I see friends of mine here in Iowa, out on their cruisers with their wifes taking
a cross state ride for the weekend with nothing more than their do-rags, I just hope they learn their lesson before it's too late for them.
Leon
Quote from: Sabre093 on November 16, 2014, 09:23:14 AM
...My wife's cousin is a nurse in Tampa and she told me they call those people organ donors...
Steve we're in Tampa near Whiskey Joe's we are flying out Monday
I've also heard "Muder-Cycle(s/ist/r)"
Timing!
Hope you had a nice visit. Catch you next time.
Steve
There were no helmet laws when I started riding and very few street riders wore them. Then the insurance companies got in the act and failing to protect yourself adequately became a criminal act. Texas backed-off on that when HD became a status symbol of the well-to-do. The "cagers" still have to buckle-up but the bikers are free to expose themselves as they see fit - up to the public lewdity level.
The statistics on neck-injury vs head injury make the helmet choice a bit less one-sided than you might think, and from time to time I do enjoy a naked-noogin ride. But law or no law my default would be to wear head, hand, and foot/ankle protection.
I just don't think it should be a crime not to.
Well put, Burns!
I think if we manage to survive our youth...and develop a sense of mortality along the way, wearing a helmet is the obvious choice. When I was young and had the option in California, on rare occasions I'd ride without a helmet. I would justify it with the heat and/or humidity, I could turn my head to look around easier and I could hear better in and around town at slow speeds. Even then, I was known to state, "When my head hits the pavement, it had better be a day I chose to wear the helmet!"
We've gone too far with making things compulsory...we're at the point where it's difficult to get through a day without breaking a law and wearing a helmet or not should be a personal choice. That being said, I ALWAYS wear a helmet...and on my long trip, I would cross into states where people still had a choice. That always put a smile on my face...inside my helmet! :good2:
I live on the Pa border and ride down there often. Once or twice a year I'll tie my helmet on the back and ride a few miles remembering my youth. I don't do it often or go fast, the noise is too much. And only on my 650.
Anson
In Wisconsin helmets on a Harley is illegal. Or so it seems probably one in 200. But it's their choice. A helmet has saved my life more than once. One time still fractured my skull in 2 places, and broke my nose, and a tooth, also impacted the vertebra in my neck.( full face arai) But I still once in awhile enjoy a ride with out one.
Quote from: Burns on November 16, 2014, 03:07:49 PM
There were no helmet laws when I started riding and very few street riders wore them. Then the insurance companies got in the act and failing to protect yourself adequately became a criminal act. Texas backed-off on that when HD became a status symbol of the well-to-do. The "cagers" still have to buckle-up but the bikers are free to expose themselves as they see fit - up to the public lewdity level.
The statistics on neck-injury vs head injury make the helmet choice a bit less one-sided than you might think, and from time to time I do enjoy a naked-noogin ride. But law or no law my default would be to wear head, hand, and foot/ankle protection.
I just don't think it should be a crime not to.
We have free health care, so if the government's picking up the tab, it feels it has the right to forceably minimize the risk and that means compulsory helmets.
Much and all as I hate over regululation, I think this is a good idea.
(https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7477/15191368854_ce57c0e8a5.jpg)
This bloke was one of Australia's best known, non racing, motorbike identities with a string of amazing rides behind him. One message he always flogged was safety and under circumstances that those that knew him just cannot remotely comprehend, he had just taken his helmet off and was only doing about 35mph.
The attending doctor confirmed that there were virtually no injuries other than the blow to the head and had he been wearing his helmet in all likelihood would have just dusted himself off and kept riding.
Noel
Here in PA, I'd say 90% of the cruiser riders (hardly and others) do not wear more than a do-rag on their coconuts.
I've even seen them, shirtless, cutoff shorts and flip flops. WTF? I just don't get. :shok: that's just asking for it
In Ontario there have been helmet laws since the early 70's, so it's a non-issue here. After almost 30 yrs of riding, I've never left the driveway without my helmet. Why? I've been pitched over the bars at 70 mph, hit by a car, fallen due to sand, black ice, wet manhole covers, had a garbage truck make a left turn on top of me, transport truck tires explode in front of me...and those are the ones I remember. :wacko1:
Ever mash a pumpkin with a baseball bat (or a cricket bat) when you were a kid? (I grew up in the country, so we had to amuse ourselves somehow). :crazy:
About two months ago, my buddy was riding into work when the skid plate from a Ford F-150 4x4 that he was behind fell off. It sailed like a frisbee right through his windscreen - he ducked just in time for it to glance off his helmet - and managed not to crash at highway speed. Without a helmet his head probably would have been severed above the eyebrows, with his brains spilling out like a pint of Guinness poured too fast.
Needless to say, when it happens - you'll never know it if you're not wearing one. Don't want to be all preachy, but a little sweat never hurt anyone. :hi:
You may not know, but.... society will know, when they pay your long term medical care, as you lay in a vegetative state for...years.
The brain has a consistency of firm jello and like anything with mass, its motion will continue until acted upon by some outside force. If your skull and contents are traveling at, say, 60 mph and the skull comes to an abrupt stop (e.g. contact with a parked Buick) the brain slams against the inside of your skull and the "jello" gets scrambled. No helmet can overcome these simple physics.
There are certainly many injuries which can be prevented or minimized by wearing a helmet, but by no means all, and above a certain deceleration serious closed-head injury is not in that class of events.
The bottom line is that most of the "vegtabalizing" motorcycle related head injuries cannot be prevented by a helmet.
My two points are (1) do not have a false sense of security inside your high-dollar helmet and (2) the "burden to society" argument's logical conclusion would be to avoid motorcycles completely; the difference in debilitating head injury rates with/without a helmet are totally swallowed by the differences in injury rates generally for ride/don't ride.
Since we here are motorcyclists we have already opted out of (2) and splitting hairs* over helmet use is rather spurious.
Paralysis from cervical injury associated with the increased "above the shoulders" mass added by a helmet bolsters this conclusion.
As I said previously I generally opt of head/hand/foot-ankle protection, but not always.
* "split lanes not hairs"
Quote from: Burns on November 17, 2014, 11:29:24 AM
The bottom line is that most of the "vegtabalizing" motorcycle related head injuries cannot be prevented by a helmet.
Really? Is that just your opinion or do you have facts to back up your "bottom line"? Helmets save more lives than they take.
Quote from: Burns on November 17, 2014, 11:29:24 AM
....the "burden to society" argument's logical conclusion would be to avoid motorcycles completely; the difference in debilitating head injury rates with/without a helmet are totally swallowed by the differences in injury rates generally for ride/don't ride.
Can society flat out prohibit motorcycles? They technically could, but the horse has left the barn on that issue.
I think that it's a safe assumption that helmets reduce head injuries.
Riding a motorcycle is a privilege (not a freedom) granted by society...same with driving a car.
I am against all laws that mandate a helmet, there should be a option...Those who do choose to not wear a helmet...they should be required a minimum level of long term medical insurance coverage. It's their option to choose. After all you shouldn't be allowed to ride your motorcycle without a minimum level of liability insurance, correct?
The same rule should apply to helmet-less riders...
I feel that it's unfair for taxpayers to foot the bill for a rider's long term disability due in part to their poor choice..
Dying is easy, it's those that live on the dole I resent.
The most quoted source is DOT HS 811 208 (2009) which is on-line at
http://www-nrd.nhtsa.dot.gov/Pubs/811208.pdf (http://www-nrd.nhtsa.dot.gov/Pubs/811208.pdf)
That study showed that 6.6 of unhelmeted riders involved in crashes either died or were treated at hospitals compared to 5.1 percent of helmeted riders.
A difference of 1.5%.
It also showed a 2.4% higher rate of head injuries for unhelmeted riders.
It did not have a "vegtabilizing injury" category.
Interestingly, it showed HIGHER rates of injury for helmeted riders in 5 of the 8 types of injury reported (Thorax, Abdomen, Spine, Upper extremities, and lower extremities). And while neck injuries are fairly rare, helmeted riders suffered close to twice as many as unhelmeted riders.
Findings of other studies comparing death rates of helmeted vs unhelmeted riders are ambiguous. Some show fairly low differences and others report no statistically significant differences at all. The before and after numbers for the repeal of the Penna helmet law is striking though, showing marked increases in deaths there.
I'm sorry that I did not make my "social utility" rejoinder clearer. I did not intend to suggest any governmental action. My point is that the decision to ride entails acceptance of certain risks that are cumulatively orders of magnitude more significant than the choice of wearing a helmet, in terms of burden to society.
The physics of closed-head injury are more than anecdotal for me. I did a face-plant in the Mojave desert in 1986 and the YZ490 I was on was like a hammer driving a nail.
I was the nail.
I was "suited up" pretty well and had a full-face helmet on but was whacked into a coma, spent 2 weeks in the hospital and lost my ability to speak for 3 months.
I never got back everything I lost that day.
I still enjoy a naked noggin ride every once in a while and don't feel that the facts justify being penalized for that indulgance.
Phew! Seemed to be getting a little warm for a while. :shok:
I was almost finished writing another tome on this thread when this POS IPad froze on me and wiped it out. Trying to remember all that profundity and rewrite it will be a task but here goes...
I can see how having such a traumatic event happen to you can shape your perception. Those few events I listed in my life shaped my perception in a similar way. That 70 mph shunt in 1987 was two years into my riding experience. The cop measured my flight at over 100 ft from where the bike impacted to where I stopped tumbling. The doctor told me I suffered a "hyper extension and flexion of your cervical spine", i.e. I came within a c-hair of being a para or even a quadroplegic. As I cartwheeled along, the multiple impacts scarred my helmet with a cross-hatch of gouges making it look like a grizzly used it to sharpen its claws. I kept that helmet for another 10 yrs as a reminder. Luckily I escaped with just a broken hand and a lifetime of continuous back pain.
So yes, it is a lot about choice. Despite your accident you still occasionally go without a helmet. Because of mine, I'll never ride without one. I've had several smaller incidents since that have reaffirmed my decision. Even my journey from Toronto to Texas to Virginia and back, I never thought of riding without it in the states that allowed it.
I think the issue is how to make an informed choice. Choosing not to wear one because the government suggests or says you should is not. Informing yourself with statistics may or may not be useful. You almost died in a dirt bike accident at (I am presuming, sorry), a relatively slower speed. I almost walked away from a high speed crash that by rights, should have left me a cripple, or killed me. I think we were both anomalies in those statistics on that day.
Anyhow, that's a lot less than what I originally wrote, and quite different. This obviously strikes a chord in many of us that transcends geographic and cultural boundaries. The ability to choose is not enough. Any animal can choose A or B. Knowing why, and the consequences of that choice are just as important.
We're buttoned up for winter for the next five months now. For the rest of you who don't have to deal with it, ride safe. :drinks:
It's pretty simple really. If you get hard enough you scramble your brains no matter what you are carrying them in.
I usually wear gloves and boots when riding but sometimes don't. I almost always wear a helmet, but sometimes don't. It ain't a religious issue or an indicator of moral superiority.
How bout hitting two cows crossing the highway? 50mph,0ct 22nd 2008 5.45 am on my Suzuki dual/sport...pitch black outside and black cows! Broke my leg and hit my head on the pavement hard enough to shatter my faceshield, without a helmet I probably wouldnt be here today...I never ride without one,never have, my parents made me! learning to ride in the dirt you will crash! And crash I did... alot! Charley.
Quote from: Burns on November 18, 2014, 04:21:04 PM
It ain't a religious issue or an indicator of moral superiority.
Maybe I take it for granted here as it has been mandated for about 40yrs, as it's second nature to me (us?). I feel no moral superiority just because I wear a helmet, and I hope it didn't come off like that. But I would agree (if we had optional helmet laws here) that my health and auto insurance costs should not reflect the choice of others who choose not to wear helmets.
Society may deem it necessary to protect ourselves from ourselves in many instances. Seatbelts, gun control, impaired driving, traffic lights, even painted lines on the road. Whether we agree with them or not, these things were regulated in most districts because it was proven we are incapable of controlling whatever impulses we have that would put our lives or others at risk.
It's a given in most modern societies that we are free to do almost anything we want within the confines of our property. Outside those limits we have a social contract beyond what we perceive to be our personal choice. Dying from not wearing a helmet is cheap, but being mentally or physically handicapped carries enormous costs - not just financially - but also on family and friends amongst others.
If I was riding with you and you decided not to wear your helmet, I wouldn't lecture you or question your decision. I'd probably be envious if anything. But those are the choices we make.
Just remember everyone we're just expressing our opinions. Sometimes it's hard to guage the inflection of emotion in our written words as none of us have won any Nobel's for literature lately. Happy riding everyone.
Anyhow I think I whipped that horse enough (don't tell PETA). :sorry:
Quote from: charleygofast on November 18, 2014, 07:17:54 PM
How bout hitting two cows crossing the highway? ...pitch black outside and black cows! ...... Charley.
That sure as hell beats the black dog on a moonless night. The cops never beleive that one. Did you keep a piece of cow to prove it to them? :mocking:
I gotta give that pony one more kick. I keep hearing about the cost to society of keeping the vegetables caused by failure to wear helmets alive. But I have never seen a single FACT that supports the assertion of a correlation high enough to justify action.
Plenty of intuitive prognostications, but where is the evidence? Before you nibble another petty freedom away - even if it is the freedom to make a bad choice - you need to justify the infringement.
At least you used to.
I will abandon any hypothesis that is not supported by the data so, make your case "veggie haters" show me the numbers - but remember anecdote is not evidence.
I think that everyone agrees that been forced by law to wear a helmet is not what we want and that here are so many factors that need to be taken in to account regarding helmets. We all could tell stories of crashes and their outcome but all things been equal I dont think anyone would argue that wearing a helmet is better than not.
Now hitting a wall head on at 90mph compared to hitting the same wall at 30mph are two completely different scenarios. At 90mph the sheer inertia could indeed damage the brain even with a helmet but at 30 miles an hour it would be highly unlikely. 30mph no helmet could result in death.
47 seconds of Karl Pilkington on helmets and safety laws :good2:
Ricky Gervais Guide To Society - He Had A Helmet, But His Head Come Off (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vc82cy7ImRY#)
Ok, I've got some data and the facts compel me to abandon my "societal cost" position.
"In 1991, prior to enacting its helmet law, California�s state medical insurance program paid $40 million for the treatment of motorcycle-related head injuries. That figure dropped to $24 million after enactment of a universal helmet law"
While the "post hoc ergo proctor hoc" counter-point would serve in a formal debate, I concede the point. Motorcycle helmets DO save society money.
Quote from: wildfire on November 19, 2014, 02:45:34 PM
I think that everyone agrees that been forced by law to wear a helmet is not what we want and that here are so many factors that need to be taken in to account regarding helmets. We all could tell stories of crashes and their outcome but all things been equal I dont think anyone would argue that wearing a helmet is better than not.
Now hitting a wall head on at 90mph compared to hitting the same wall at 30mph are two completely different scenarios. At 90mph the sheer inertia could indeed damage the brain even with a helmet but at 30 miles an hour it would be highly unlikely. 30mph no helmet could result in death.
They decided that I was going less than the 35mph speed limit. When I stopped abruptly, from a car pulling out in front of me. (Wearing helmet and full leather suit) I broke my nose, a tooth, impacted my vertebrae in my neck,and broke my skull in 2places, and had pretty major trauma to my brain. Lost a lot of my lifetime memories. And had to carry a mini recorder around, so I could play back the last few minutes so I could remember what just happened. Without the helmet I would have been dead .
Like I said though. I still on rare occasions, go for a ride without. If it's your time it's your time. You can't stop people from burning their crotch with McDonald's coffee by making everyone else drink cold coffee.
very well said indeed.
Quote from: giantkiller on November 19, 2014, 05:44:58 PM
Quote from: wildfire on November 19, 2014, 02:45:34 PM
I think that everyone agrees that been forced by law to wear a helmet is not what we want and that here are so many factors that need to be taken in to account regarding helmets. We all could tell stories of crashes and their outcome but all things been equal I dont think anyone would argue that wearing a helmet is better than not.
Now hitting a wall head on at 90mph compared to hitting the same wall at 30mph are two completely different scenarios. At 90mph the sheer inertia could indeed damage the brain even with a helmet but at 30 miles an hour it would be highly unlikely. 30mph no helmet could result in death.
They decided that I was going less than the 35mph speed limit. When I stopped abruptly, from a car pulling out in front of me. (Wearing helmet and full leather suit) I broke my nose, a tooth, impacted my vertebrae in my neck,and broke my skull in 2places, and had pretty major trauma to my brain. Lost a lot of my lifetime memories. And had to carry a mini recorder around, so I could play back the last few minutes so I could remember what just happened. Without the helmet I would have been dead .
Like I said though. I still on rare occasions, go for a ride without. If it's your time it's your time. You can't stop people from burning their crotch with McDonald's coffee by making everyone else drink cold coffee.
[/quote
How long ago did it happen? Was it a full face helmet or the skull type helmet?
This is my 2 cents worth on this subject. (popcorn)
I had a major accident back in 1990. Going 40 MPH in a corner, I crashed my FJ1100 on Angeles Crest Highway in Southern California. The gear I had on literally saved my life. Full face top of the line Shoei helmet, One piece Dainese leathers, Sidi boots and AGV gloves. Pretty much AMA roadracing spec gear. I landed in rocks and my leathers, gloves and boots saved me from getting cut up. The Doctors said, had I been wearing a Leather jacket and jeans instead. I would have been so cut up, that I would have probably bled out before the EMT's got there. The damage to the helmet was the real scary thing. Not a scratch on it, but there was a single 1/2" diameter hole about 3/16ths of an inch deep. It looked like what a pane of glass looks like after it is shot with a BB gun. I periodically look back and imagine what would have happened to my head had I not been wearing a helmet.
The result of this was a 3 week stay in the hospital with a snapped in half left Femur, broken left foot, severely bruised chest, collapsed lungs, 2 broken vertebrae in the lower back and 7 days in traction before surgery to repair my leg. To come back to the helmet usage. I had zero head injury and zero neck injury.
Fred
Quote from: charleygofast on November 18, 2014, 07:17:54 PM
How bout hitting two cows crossing the highway? ...pitch black outside and black cows! ...... Charley.
That sure as hell beats the black dog on a moonless night. The cops never beleive that one. Did you keep a piece of cow to prove it to them? :mocking:
Yes PaulG,
There was a bit of skin and hair on the cotterpin on my front axle...I left it there until I put on a new tire 2years later...I actually got up and kickstarted the bike (with a broken fibula) rode back and called police. One arrived shortly and the wayward cows were still walking the road near the crash site. that and my twisted bike were proof enough. We did find the cows owner and his insurance covered my loss and expense's. The cows however, were never captured. Charley.
P.S Helmets... Yes it is a choice in WI. I rode in the helmet rally in the 80s for that right. But I choose to allways wear one.
[/quote]
I wore only open face helmets as a young rider. My best friend had a 550 Seca, which he was riding one evening and hit a St. Bernard. He was wearing a full face Shoei ER5 helmet. The chin guard area of the helmet was severely damaged from sliding on the pavement. Had he worn an open face helmet like mine at the time he wouldn't have been left with a chin.He broke his collar bone and had severe burns on his thighs from the pipe of the bike. It had landed on top of him and the header cooked his legs to the point he needed skin grafts. His face and noggin were in need of no repair. From that day forward I have always worn a full face helmet.
These stories are what influences some of us to make the choices we make.
I have always worn full face, my last two incidents (in the last 15 years) would have resulted in damage to the face or chin. Better to have the gear take the damage than me. Not to mention the time I flew through a swarm of bees. What a mess, it was like they were full of honey, juicy buggers.... :bad:
Quote from: FJmonkey on November 20, 2014, 03:04:40 AM
Not to mention the time I flew through a swarm of bees. What a mess, it was like they were full of honey, juicy buggers.... :bad:
I rode through a swarm of bees in Arizona, at freeway speed......................My visor was covered!
Mine is a simple one, a heavy face plant into bitumen at 180 kph. The RH handle bar clipped a concrete post. Try snapping your bike on full lock that fast at that speed and see how hard you go face first into the road.
It was on an elevated section of road through a swamp and I was there for about 6 hours before someone found me, and even then I was lucky. It was getting on for last light when a truck driver saw me. He briefly surveyed the situation and continued on to the next town where he reported it to the police, telling them not to hurry as it was no doubt a body retrieval. The cop went out and found me, not having even bothered to call an ambulance. He was stunned to find me alive.
What little was left of the chin of my full face ( my first full face and the first model Bell) was caught on a tuft of swamp grass with my mouth barely above the water level, the rest of me lying in a foot of water. He reckons (I went to see him when I recovered) a twitch of my head would have seen me slide down into the water and drown (I was unconscious)
Unfortunately the helmet was the only protective gear I had on and the attending doctor said he had treated some of the most horrific motorbike injuries imaginable but he never seen anyone lose so much skin.
Amazingly, I had no other serious injuries. He attributed much of this to me having lost consciousness before crashing. I was lucky, it was evident where the twist grip hit the post, both on the bike and the post, but my knee/leg missed it, which must have been by a whisker.
The only upside was it wasn't my bike. I had borrowed a second hand bike from the local shop (Pratt & Osborne for the locals) to go for a ride as mine was in pieces at the time, they weren't happy.
This was at a time when full face helmets were new and the camp still divided. All sorts of nonsense arguments being put forward about them being the work of the devil, snapping your neck and so on.
Well, my neck didn't snap but I would have been missing most of my head without it.
There have been several other less spectacular circumstances that would also have lead to certain death without a helmet. The one above would no doubt have been fatal even with an open face lid.
I'm a bad example for protective gear, I ride around town (but never on the open road) in shorts and T shirts and inappropriate footwear, occasionally even thongs (flip flops?) but I can't even ride up my driveway without a helmet on.
I don't care whose facts your quoting or how they've massaged them or what agenda they're pushing, helmets save lives and injury big time.
Noel
Quote from: wildfire on November 19, 2014, 02:45:34 PM
I think that everyone agrees that been forced by law to wear a helmet is not what we want............
I don't agree and some members here get shirty (not me) when you speak on there behalf without personally surveying them.
Noel
Noel,
I wouldn't ride up (or down) your driveway without a helmet either!
Yeah, I miss Pratt & Osborne, good guys. All we're left with is PisserStevens, a KTM dirt bike shop, and G. HD. :-(
Arnie
I am an AGATT rider. its not a moral thing. its not a self righteous thing. its a selfish thing. I love to ride and if I am laid up healing from an accident it takes away from what I truly love to do.
Other than my Son, I don't preach my ideals to others that don't wear protective gear, helmets being most important. I live in a state where there is no mandatory helmet law and there is a lot of Non Helmet wearing HD enthusiasts. Its just a way of strengthening the gene pool as I see it.
Scott
Quote from: ribbert on November 20, 2014, 08:19:26 AM
Quote from: wildfire on November 19, 2014, 02:45:34 PM
I think that everyone agrees that been forced by law to wear a helmet is not what we want............
I don't agree and some members here get shirty (not me) when you speak on there behalf without personally surveying them.
Noel
i was not speaking on behalf of anyone . As my first two words were " I think" . The point is been told to do anything is not what most people usually want. People usually want to make up their own mind up about what to do regardless of topic..
Quote from: wildfire on November 20, 2014, 09:21:33 AM
Quote from: ribbert on November 20, 2014, 08:19:26 AM
Quote from: wildfire on November 19, 2014, 02:45:34 PM
I think that everyone agrees that been forced by law to wear a helmet is not what we want............
I don't agree and some members here get shirty (not me) when you speak on there behalf without personally surveying them.
Noel
i was not speaking on behalf of anyone . As my first two words were " I think" . The point is been told to do anything is not what most people usually want. People usually want to make up their own mind up about what to do regardless of topic..
I understand that while you may agree a helmet should always be worn, you don't want the government making it mandatory.
I object to over regulation more than anyone but in this case, considering the cost and the overwhelming evidence, I have to agree that with so many riders incapable of making the right call, the govt. has to step in.
There are basic rules for road use that must be enforced to regulate traffic with a degree of safety, these are matters of safety that cannot be left to the individual to interpret or apply as they see fit.
Just be thankful we don't live in France:
Hi Vis clothing is now mandatory on all bikes over 115cc
A full set of globes must be carried, even if replacement is a dealer job.
Having a radar device fitted will cost you a one year ban, which commences on the spot, that is, you can't even ride your bike away from the side of the road.
GPS units with speed camera locations will land you in almost as much trouble.
Blood alcohol levels are so low a single glass of wine or beer can tip you over the limit.
High level drink driving carries a two year jail sentence even if not involved in an accident.
Personal Breathalyzers must be carried at all times (x2)
30kph or more over a posted speed limit will see you in serious trouble.
On the spot fines will see the bike confiscated until the fine is paid.(the Police don't take credit cards)
If visiting from a country that drives on the other side of the road you have to tape up you head light if the glass pattern is not symmetrical and even if it is, you're advised to get a letter from a local retailer or importer of your model bike to that effect, or risk the cop making his own call on it.
If the bike is not yours, you need to carry a letter of permission from the registered owner at all times.
You need to not only carry your drivers licence but your passport, insurance and registration papers at all times.
If you are visiting from the UK, you need to have your current MOT certificate with you.
A separate fine applies for each piece of documentation you are not carrying.
Lane splitting is illegal and the Police frequently accused of slowing up traffic to encourage bike riders to do it.
All of the above is actively enforced by the Police.
This information is from a reputable motor cycle travellers guide, 2013I don't know about you, but I might stop whinging for a while.
Noel
Quote from: wildfire on November 19, 2014, 07:02:03 PM
Quote from: giantkiller on November 19, 2014, 05:44:58 PM
Quote from: wildfire on November 19, 2014, 02:45:34 PM
I think that everyone agrees that been forced by law to wear a helmet is not what we want and that here are so many factors that need to be taken in to account regarding helmets. We all could tell stories of crashes and their outcome but all things been equal I dont think anyone would argue that wearing a helmet is better than not.
Now hitting a wall head on at 90mph compared to hitting the same wall at 30mph are two completely different scenarios. At 90mph the sheer inertia could indeed damage the brain even with a helmet but at 30 miles an hour it would be highly unlikely. 30mph no helmet could result in death.
They decided that I was going less than the 35mph speed limit. When I stopped abruptly, from a car pulling out in front of me. (Wearing helmet and full leather suit) I broke my nose, a tooth, impacted my vertebrae in my neck,and broke my skull in 2places, and had pretty major trauma to my brain. Lost a lot of my lifetime memories. And had to carry a mini recorder around, so I could play back the last few minutes so I could remember what just happened. Without the helmet I would have been dead .
Like I said though. I still on rare occasions, go for a ride without. If it's your time it's your time. You can't stop people from burning their crotch with McDonald's coffee by making everyone else drink cold coffee.
[/quote
How long ago did it happen? Was it a full face helmet or the skull type helmet?
It was October of 90 an yes it was a full face arai. Mike reminded me, that I didn't tell the whole story. My neurosurgeon told me he went through the intersection at time. Ad he pulled up to the paramedic. Who was directing traffic at the time (because the cops hadn't gotten there yet) and asked if he could help out. He said the paramedic turned and looked at me laying on the ground and said "no there's nothing more we can do for this guy". My friend said they finally put me in the ambulance and were just sitting there. He said I started moaning and they slammed the doors and took off. I've been told that they have to go through the motions until a doctor can pronounce you dead.
I also shattered my elbow, broke my hip, tore my lung in 2places, tore my liver, my kidney, my spleen, and my lower intestine in 2 places. They said they took more blood out of my chest cavity than a human being is supposed to have. And I left 2 big puddles on the road.
I was kinda large at the time 280lbs bodybuilder/powerlifter. In the 2 1/2 months I was in the hospital I dropped down to 220.
Or how about the time I had a guy go down in front of me at some where around 135mph and we both walked away. Wearing helmets jackets and jeans I had a sprained ankle and a slight concussion. And he had a little road rash were his jacket pulled up.
Or how about the time my rear tire caught a small chunk of a tire laying in my line in a corner. And the last thing I remember is my front wheel coming around to catch up to the back wheel in the ditch. Then the next thing I remember is running down the road trying to stop. My freind said he came around the corner and I was running down the road and my bike was 20ft in the air over my head. (I was wearing tennis shoes and shorts and sunglasses. All I got was some cuts on my face road rash on my side and back with poison ivy in it. Push my bike off in the ditch. Got on the back of his bike went and ate. Then went to the hospital after to get the road rash cleaned out.
Or this forth of July. I go on a ride with fifty some Harley guys. And killed a deer with my chest. I have was the only one wearing a helmet that day.
Like I said if it's your time it's your time.
Quote from: ribbert on November 21, 2014, 06:56:04 AM
Just be thankful we don't live in France:
I am ..... :mocking: , I could go on but......
A perfect example of Orwellian over regulation. If I were King of the World.... :diablo:
Quote from: PaulG on November 24, 2014, 09:04:42 PM
Quote from: ribbert on November 21, 2014, 06:56:04 AM
Just be thankful we don't live in France:
I am ..... :mocking: , I could go on but......
A perfect example of Orwellian over regulation. If I were King of the World.... :diablo:
for those who advocate criminal sanctions for failure to self-protect to a mandated level: remember the frog in the hot skillet vs the frog in the slowly heating pan of water.
Regulatory creep is real.