In anticipation of Paul's new bike...a 1993 ABS model, I am considering replacement of the rubber brake lines.
Any kits or do I have to disassemble and measure each line and order from Spiegler? Ouch $$$
I appreciate your suggestions, and yes, I am too lazy to search....I know this has been discussed before.
Thanks in advance folks.
I installed a pre-made kit from Spiegler on a customers 93 several years ago.
http://www.spieglerusa.com/brake-line-kit-1578.htm (http://www.spieglerusa.com/brake-line-kit-1578.htm)
Still ouch...
Randy - RPM
Pat, PM Ron he did that on his bike and I think he had the lines made locally? Might be in error, just a recall from a conversation. :morning1:
George
I know Ron likes his FJ ABS and is proud of the fact he keeps it working but from what Im told by other FJ ABS owners is they were glad to remove it. Very problematic. I think if it were My Bike I would ditch the ABS...JMHO
Scott
Hey Pat,
George recalls most of that conversation correctly...When I was doing the rebuild on my '92 ABS, I wanted to replace all the OEM rubber lines with stainless. Turns out, no one made a pre-fab kit for this. I found out that Galfer is in Camarillo about 20 minutes drive from me, so I worked with them over several weeks to develop a full kit. Lots of driving back and forth, test fitting and adjusting.
In the end, they now have a full kit. That is a total of 9 lines to do the front and rear brakes to and from the ABS pump as well as the clutch. The part number is: FK003D663-9 and can be had for $289 from a few sources.
While doing the search, I found the install instructions, complete with the pictures of the lines on my bike! My FJ's 15 minutes of fame I guess. :good2:
http://www.galferusa.com/brake-line-instructions/ABS/Kawasaki-Yamaha-Complete-Kits/D663-9%20Std%20Front%20Rear%20and%20Clutch.pdf (http://www.galferusa.com/brake-line-instructions/ABS/Kawasaki-Yamaha-Complete-Kits/D663-9%20Std%20Front%20Rear%20and%20Clutch.pdf)
Very, very good Ron! This kit even includes the clutch line....at a much better price than Spiegler.
Randy are you a dealer? I would rather buy from you...
I wanted replace those short lines from MC to ABS unit with one long braided one and second long from pump to splitter.
That reduces cost, make less connections and You need only 6 brake lines.
You can make custom lines here: http://www.helperformance.com/create-your-custom-brake-hose.html (http://www.helperformance.com/create-your-custom-brake-hose.html)
Quote from: FJscott on November 14, 2014, 02:22:55 PM
I know Ron likes his FJ ABS and is proud of the fact he keeps it working but from what Im told by other FJ ABS owners is they were glad to remove it. Very problematic. I think if it were My Bike I would ditch the ABS...JMHO
Scott
Hey Scott,
I know there are two camps on this topic and there are fewer and fewer hangin' with me around my campfire...Where did everyone go? :unknown:
During the rebuild, I kept the ABS setup because I recalled an incident 15 or so years earlier. The rear ABS kicked in going too hot into a corner on Malibu Canyon and saved me from a rear-wheel low side. I suppose, if my ABS had any issues, I probably would have ditched it too, but it didn't...so I just hooked up the new lines, bleed the system (well) and moved on. At this point, I really have no reason to bypass it as it just works. There are some advantages to getting rid of it, but not compelling enough for me to make any changes so I keep it the way it is.
That being said, heading up to the 2014 WCR, I led the group to a "shortcut" that turned out to be a hilly dirt road through the woods. Great fun (well, I liked it anyway) and the rear ABS was awesome! I could just brake and the bike would slow with NO tire slip. Cool. Didn't save my life in any way, but was just nice to have and made the dirt road hill descents very comfortable.
THEN...on the way back from the Reno Air Races a few months ago, I had clocked 400 miles of 100+ degree riding through the desert on a sleep-deprived weekend of fun and frivolity! :biggrin: I was pretty spent and was just two miles from my house. I was riding a surface street and cars were backed up for three blocks going in the opposite direction. I rode along well under the speed limit watching for kids darting out between all those cars. I got just past the school and a CAR darted out between a gap in the traffic and cut right in front of me. We were essentially blind to each other. She slammed on her brakes and so did I. This time, my FRONT ABS kicked in, pulsing lever and all...and brought me to a quick, controlled stop. I have no doubt that for that incident, ABS kept me from doing a front-wheel low side.
Not trying to make any converts here...it's a personal choice. A better feeling brake lever would be nice, dropping a few pounds would be nice...Even so, I'll keep my ABS. :yes:
Quote from: MOTOMYSZOR on November 14, 2014, 02:46:20 PM
I wanted replace those short lines from MC to ABS unit with one long braided one and second long from pump to splitter.
That reduces cost, make less connections and You need only 6 brake lines.
Yep! Fewer connections are better...mostly for getting all the air out of the lines. Air bubbles get trapped in all the little corners. On the Galfer setup, they make the clutch one continuous line from master cylinder to slave cylinder...eliminating the hard line in the middle. Nice.
The brake line setup is like OEM with the two hard-lines still utilized.
Oh...and the Galfer lines do have the "clock-able" banjos.
Thanks MOTO...BTW, what is your first name? I need to do my homework to see what you're referring to...
Good example Ron, I know what you mean, mistakes tend to happen at the end of long rides...
Did you follow up to see the price on welding on a 17" rim band on your back ABS wheel?
Quote from: FJscott on November 14, 2014, 02:22:55 PM
I know Ron likes his FJ ABS and is proud of the fact he keeps it working but from what Im told by other FJ ABS owners is they were glad to remove it. Very problematic. I think if it were My Bike I would ditch the ABS...JMHO
Scott
Scott,
My bike has ABS . Can you expand a little on what problems were experienced with the ABS systems for future reference.
Tom
Quote from: Pat Conlon on November 14, 2014, 03:11:42 PM
Good example Ron, I know what you mean, mistakes tend to happen at the end of long rides...
Did you follow up to see the price on welding on a 17" rim band on your back ABS wheel?
I submitted a request for pricing but never got a response. Another member here hinted at around $600/wheel, but that sounded high.
FWIW...
We started with the Galfer lines on the 92 I was changing over for a customer. Two things arose very quickly...
1) We were not able to rotate the ends of the lines to allow the braided sheathing to not have a twist on the kit we received.
2) The kit does not work if if you change over to blue dot calipers.
The nice thing about the Spiegler, is the ends rotate so you can clock them slightly for a better routing and I was able to turn the lower banjo fitting so that is bolted up well with the blue spots.
Randy - RPM
Quote from: Capn Ron on November 14, 2014, 03:57:59 PM
I submitted a request for pricing but never got a response. Another member here hinted at around $600/wheel, but that sounded high.
I read this many moons ago and came across it again this week; http://www.fjmods.co.uk/Wheels.htm#Anchor19883 (http://www.fjmods.co.uk/Wheels.htm#Anchor19883)
Randy - RPM
Thanks Randy, yea I remember reading that...Horst is in Germany...so shipping would be a bitch.
I just got off the phone with Sandy Kosman...THE Sandy Kosman...a true motorcycle legend. Flustered, I spit and sputtered, telling him that I was always a fan of his work...He was very gracious, anyhoo....as Ron indicated, Sandy sold his wheel weld services to Charlie Sullivan in Orlando CA (north of Sacto off the I-5)
(530) 200-3572 I have a call into Charlie now....
I'll report back...
Quote from: Pat Conlon on November 14, 2014, 04:40:17 PM
Thanks Randy, yea I remember reading that...Horst is in Germany...so shipping would be a bitch.
That looks like a Suzuki wheel...maybe he can advise on the process and what tone ring he used within that wheel.
It might be worth asking...
Randy - RPM
Horst website no worky...
Lots of Barry's links are broken...
Quote from: Pat Conlon on November 14, 2014, 04:57:02 PM
Horst website no worky...
Actually; Hier entsteht demnächst eine neue Internetpräsenz
Means...Here is a new website soon
His email is there though; info@hbbike.de
Randy - RPM
Ok, I have a email into Horst...we shall see...
Thanks Randy
Quote from: racerrad8 on November 14, 2014, 04:20:51 PM
1) We were not able to rotate the ends of the lines to allow the braided sheathing to not have a twist on the kit we received.
The nice thing about the Spiegler, is the ends rotate so you can clock them slightly for a better routing and I was able to turn the lower banjo fitting so that is bolted up well with the blue spots.
Randy - RPM
That's odd...One of my back-and-forth trips to Galfer was because of the clocking. The lines had undesirable twists in them. I drove back to Camarillo to see if they had ends that were clocked differently. He told me to just rotate them! Did yours look like this one?
(http://fjowners.com/gallery/7/697_14_11_14_7_06_00.jpeg)
By looking at the banjo ends, I didn't imagine they were clockable...never thought of it really...but he just gripped the knurled bit with a pair of pliers and the banjo in an adjustable wrench and turned them. He went on in great length about how they always use clockable fittings or else you'll get weird twists in the lines.
I just put in a call to them to see if they've changed the fittings, but they're closed for the weekend.
Quote from: Capn Ron on November 14, 2014, 07:14:51 PM
That's odd...One of my back-and-forth trips to Galfer was because of the clocking. The lines had undesirable twists in them. I drove back to Camarillo to see if they had ends that were clocked differently. He told me to just rotate them! Did yours look like this one?
(http://fjowners.com/gallery/7/697_14_11_14_7_06_00.jpeg)
By looking at the banjo ends, I didn't imagine they were clockable...never thought of it really...but he just gripped the knurled bit with a pair of pliers and the banjo in an adjustable wrench and turned them. He went on in great length about how they always use clockable fittings or else you'll get weird twists in the lines.
Ron, they looked something like that, I have not seen them in some time to know for sure. I do recall looking at the instructions then and again today, and there is nothing about rotating the fittings. The other part of that, I would have a real hard time grabbing a brand new brake line in a pair of pliers and just "turn rotate them".
I have since installed 4-5 sets of Spiegler brake line kits and they provide the tools required to rotate and clock the fitting which will not mar, scratch or damage the fitting. You can see a short video here: http://www.spieglerusa.com/brakes.html (http://www.spieglerusa.com/brakes.html)
The thing that I find strange is the fact he went into great length to you about rotating the fitting, yet they do not mention it in their instructions.
Things that make you go...hmmmmmm
Randy - RPM
Hi Ron,
I think if I had your experiences where I felt the ABS saved my bacon I would as you do keep my system in good working order and obviously you do. My green bike has ABS and Traction Control and I have no desire to remove them from that bike however that bikes ABS technology is 22 years advanced. the FJ pump and hoses looks like the head of Medusa, I'm afraid to look at it, something bad will happen. There is a FJ rider on the east coast that complains of;
* leaks
* pulsations in the brake lever even when stopped
*constant battle with air and spongy brakes
essentially instead of a feeling of confidence that he has ABS he feels insecure that it wont work when he needs it or that it compromises his ability to emergency stop.
My reply to his complaints was " fix the fucking thing" he has had a few shops work on it to the tune of hundreds of dollars with no success. he gave up,removed it and upgraded to blue dots, new rotors,HH pads, SS hoses and is happy with his brakes now.
Another friend owns a small bike dealership in Ft. Pierce. He sells Hondas,Kawi's and in the 80's and 90's sold Yamahas. he said he couldn't sell the ABS versions. they had a bad reputation. I don't know if they were getting a bad rap or what.
We all form our own opinions based on our first hand experiences and thru others. If I were looking at $1000 to fix the FJ ABS, for me...I wouldn't. I would take that money and upgrade the suspension and non ABS Brake system upgrades.
with the Moditus epidemic running rampant throuout this forum not once have I heard of a member wanting to put an FJ ABS system into his Non ABS FJ. :dash1:
again, I am not against ABS, just 22 year old ABS.
It would be fun to have a challenge at the next rally. a side by side 40MPH emergency stop and see which stops in the shortest distance. a Modified non ABS FJ like my bike vs. an ABS model. (popcorn)
Scott
Quote from: racerrad8 on November 14, 2014, 08:07:23 PM
Ron, they looked something like that, I have not seen them in some time to know for sure. I do recall looking at the instructions then and again today, and there is nothing about rotating the fittings. The other part of that, I would have a real hard time grabbing a brand new brake line in a pair of pliers and just "turn rotate them".
The thing that I find strange is the fact he went into great length to you about rotating the fitting, yet they do not mention it in their instructions.
Randy - RPM
Yeah...agreed. I never noticed that "clocking" wasn't addressed in the instructions until today mostly because the instructions didn't exist when we were making the kit. Should definitely be mentioned! Just knowing they were clockable would have saved me the 80 mile drive and an afternoon I suppose.
On the "Pliers"...I'm with you. Wouldn't want to scratch up something new. We used a shop rag in the jaws of a pair of pliers and because of the pattern on the crimp part, only had to apply a very soft grip and the banjo turned just fine.
I do have a question though...now that I have read the instructions... What the hell is an olive inversor??? :shok:
Quote from: FJscott on November 14, 2014, 08:17:54 PM
It would be fun to have a challenge at the next rally. a side by side 40MPH emergency stop and see which stops in the shortest distance. a Modified non ABS FJ like my bike vs. an ABS model. (popcorn)
Scott
The FJ will out brake even a modern ABS equipped bike but
only under ideal conditions and proper application and the likelihood of only needing an emergency stop under those circumstances is about nil.
Modern ABS is truely brilliant and as I have said many times, it is about the only thing I crave a modern bike for.
Noel
Quote from: FJscott on November 14, 2014, 08:17:54 PM
Hi Ron,
I think if I had your experiences where I felt the ABS saved my bacon I would as you do keep my system in good working order and obviously you do. My green bike has ABS and Traction Control and I have no desire to remove them from that bike however that bikes ABS technology is 22 years advanced. the FJ pump and hoses looks like the head of Medusa, I'm afraid to look at it, something bad will happen. There is a FJ rider on the east coast that complains of;
* leaks
* pulsations in the brake lever even when stopped
*constant battle with air and spongy brakes
essentially instead of a feeling of confidence that he has ABS he feels insecure that it wont work when he needs it or that it compromises his ability to emergency stop.
My reply to his complaints was " fix the fucking thing" he has had a few shops work on it to the tune of hundreds of dollars with no success. he gave up,removed it and upgraded to blue dots, new rotors,HH pads, SS hoses and is happy with his brakes now.
Another friend owns a small bike dealership in Ft. Pierce. He sells Hondas,Kawi's and in the 80's and 90's sold Yamahas. he said he couldn't sell the ABS versions. they had a bad reputation. I don't know if they were getting a bad rap or what.
We all form our own opinions based on our first hand experiences and thru others. If I were looking at $1000 to fix the FJ ABS, for me...I wouldn't. I would take that money and upgrade the suspension and non ABS Brake system upgrades.
with the Moditus epidemic running rampant throuout this forum not once have I heard of a member wanting to put an FJ ABS system into his Non ABS FJ. :dash1:
again, I am not against ABS, just 22 year old ABS.
It would be fun to have a challenge at the next rally. a side by side 40MPH emergency stop and see which stops in the shortest distance. a Modified non ABS FJ like my bike vs. an ABS model. (popcorn)
Scott
My bike too has ABS and I really would not mind if it did not have ABS as none of the bikes I have had
over the last 30 years had ABS.
Having said that ABS is just like any other part of any vehicles braking system in that it needs
to be maintained.
Leaks etc are due to bad worn out seals, pipes etc and would result in all the issues you mentioned that a Cali rider stated regardless if ABS was on the bike or not.. Air ona braking system is not good end of story.
The Haynes manual states that if the bikes ABS system was to fail the braking system would
function just as any non ABS equipped bike. Easy way to affirm is to disconnect both ABS sensors and see what happens.
As you know ABS is really only there to prevent the wheels from locking up. This can almost be replicated( but not as quickly) the old school way with rapid engagement and disengagement of the brake lever/pedal.
22 year old ABS or modern ABS. Well no question which is better.
Tom
Quote from: Capn Ron on November 14, 2014, 08:40:42 PM
I do have a question though...now that I have read the instructions... What the hell is an olive inversor??? :shok:
It's the female collar that the olive mates to when joining hoses (for those that like jargon)
Noel
Quote from: ribbert on November 14, 2014, 09:07:02 PM
Quote from: Capn Ron on November 14, 2014, 08:40:42 PM
I do have a question though...now that I have read the instructions... What the hell is an olive inversor??? :shok:
It's the female collar that the olive mates to when joining hoses (for those that like jargon)
Noel
Ohhh...that little brass bit? "Olive inversor"...for lord's sake.
Quote from: FJscott on November 14, 2014, 08:17:54 PM
If I were looking at $1000 to fix the FJ ABS, for me...I wouldn't. I would take that money and upgrade the suspension and non ABS Brake system upgrades.
Couldn't agree more. Doubt I would have spent much if mine wasn't working just fine.
Quote from: FJscott on November 14, 2014, 08:17:54 PM
with the Moditus epidemic running rampant throuout this forum not once have I heard of a member wanting to put an FJ ABS system into his Non ABS FJ. :dash1:
I can't imagine how intrusive to the FJ AND your wallet that mod would be! :shok: Wheels, sensors, ecu, pump, lines, rear caliper, shock relocation, dash wiring...good lord! Yeah, no one in their right mind would add it after the fact. I sure wouldn't. I guess that's my point. If all that infrastructure is essentially free with your purchase of an ABS FJ...and operating as well as a well maintained non-ABS setup...even at 22 year old tech...why would you remove it? Easier bleeding for sure...less spongy lever...yeah, I could see that I guess. Weight? I'll give ya that too. :good2:
Quote from: FJscott on November 14, 2014, 08:17:54 PM
It would be fun to have a challenge at the next rally. a side by side 40MPH emergency stop and see which stops in the shortest distance. a Modified non ABS FJ like my bike vs. an ABS model. (popcorn)
Scott
Enough variables in there to make my head spin! I'll happily watch this from the sidelines. Actually, I don't think I'd want to watch that...might be too cringe-worthy. Meet you all back at the fire. :drinks:
Coming from non abs FJ's, I'm looking forward to this bike....I really want to see what the system feels like...
Like braking at the threshold of lockup....how early does the system intervene?
How does the system feel before and after the SS lines are installed? Is it as noticeable as on the non abs brakes?
I wonder what R-1 blue dots will feel like with abs? Worth the upgrade?
If blue dots are installed, I wonder if a 15mm (FJR) m/c or a 14mm m/c will improve the feel or will it cause the system to malfunction? FJR's have abs so maybe a 15mm m/c would not honk up the system (yes, I know, different systems)
So many questions....so many things to experiment with....this will be fun.
I have always heard of the FJ abs second hand...I relish the chance for 1st person experience.
The first thing I'm gonna do is ride the bike to my favorite desert test road... point it straight and step on the brake pedal to get a feel...then move on to the front brakes...and go from there.
No question abs stops cars quicker, this I know...it should be the same for bikes...so the new systems pulse at 64 times per second and the "old" 20 year FJ system pulses at 16 times per second...can I stop faster/shorter on my non abs '92 vs. the '93 w/abs?
Always like your replies Pat...
My take on the ABS "advantage" is only when a wheel is about to lock up. It will have nothing to do with braking at all other times. In fact, after reading years worth of "get rid of it" postings, I started wondering if mine even worked. The rear was easy, but I haven't ever felt the front kick in for 17 years... Until that ride back from Reno. I was happy it was working! :good2:
I went through Skip Barber Racing at Laguna Seca several years ago and we spent a good amount of time learning "threshold braking"... The idea was to modulate the brake pedal...essentially pulsing it with our foot...to bring the tires as close to locking up as possible, then slightly off the pedal and then back on it. You'd want just a tiny bit of tire slip, but no lockup to get the best grip. Repeat this pulsing as quickly as you can and you will shorten braking distances. I'd prefer an ABS system that could pulse at 64 times/second...but I still can't beat 16 pulses/second no matter how much I practice! :nea:
I too wondered about switching components...specifically mis-matching the hydraulic ratios...and if that would mess with the ABS brain in the threshold moment.
Some will say that they like ABS on a bike because it allows you to just focus on keeping the bike upright in a panic stop. At all other times, you won't even know it's there.
FJ is my first bike with ABS. And braking in everyday use is bad enough for me to be a reason to remove it.
I used to operate brake lever with two fingers but in FJ that is very risky. So I have to use full hand and for me that doesn't work.....
In past I had few "close" situations and I never blocked front wheel. I had one very bad looking accident on motorbike when I had no chance even to press brake..... So I believe that really good braking system without ABS will work better for me than ABS
Quote from: Pat Conlon on November 14, 2014, 03:11:42 PM
Thanks MOTO...BTW, what is your first name? I need to do my homework to see what you're referring to...
My name is Karol :hi:
I really have nothing to contribute to this thread other than to say this is EXACTLY the kind of stuff that makes me love this place.
...besides the anticipation of Klavdy's next post, I mean.
+1 :good2: I don't have ABS but it is nice to learn about it on the FJ. Good thread. :hi:
George
I agree George, and echo Rossi's sentiment, you guys are great...thanks!
+2...this IS good stuff. looking forward to your observations Pat :good2:
Scott
Thanks Scotty, I'm going to experiment in 5 stages
Stock
Stock with SS lines
Stock with lines and blue spots
15mm m/c with lines and spots
14mm m/c with lines and spots
If I don't like how things feel...I'll ditch the abs and sell the abs ss line kit here on the forum.
I have my '92 I'm going to compare my results.
I already have the blue spots and 15/14mm m/c's sitting here on the bench.
I've stated before the night-and-day difference between my `90 blue dot /SS lines and my stock `92 ABS. It's weird to change between them. The dots stop on a dime, it seems. I likem!
Next is dots on the `92. Lots of hoses in the ABS makes for an $$$ upgrade. I'll report on the caliper upgrade when I make it happen.
Have a `92 nonABS on the back burner with blue dots & caliper.
Many projects...
Scott, you're welcome to try my FJ's to see what I mean.
Steve
Quote from: Steve_in_Florida on November 15, 2014, 05:21:28 PM
I've stated before the night-and-day difference between my `90 blue dot /SS lines and my stock `92 ABS. It's weird to change between them. The dots stop on a dime, it seems. I likem!
Next is dots on the `92. Lots of hoses in the ABS makes for an $$$ upgrade. I'll report on the caliper upgrade when I make it happen.
Have a `92 nonABS on the back burner with blue dots & caliper.
Many projects...
Scott, you're welcome to try my FJ's to see what I mean.
Thanks Steve, Ill have to come up your way when I get back , we can go for a ride North of you. Ill be back first week in Jan when it will finaly be "leather weather" in Florida :dance2:
Scott
Steve
The ABS won't care about the master cylinder piston size since it doesn't use the master cylinder.
It "could" care about the caliper piston size. Not sure exactly how the ABS pump works, but if it cycles a fixed amount of fluid in the line then that might not work correctly with caliper pistons that are very different sized than stock. On the plus side, the blue dot pistons are very close to stock size so, bottomline, it also shouldn't matter.
I'll be interested in your findings. I'm in the process of removing my never-working ABS.
Finally, check out VENHILL lines.
Thanks Hooli...alas no love from Venhill on the '93 FJ's....they only list the Vmax for that year...
Yep, I suspected the m/c may not matter....I do have a FJR abs 15mm m/c I'm going to try....
If, from what I've read, the abs intercedes too early....I don't think I can correct that.....we'll see.
Cheers