Hi All: I have read several posts about the flaky front ends on the FJs and different modifications to improve handling and response. Alas, I have done no modifications to my FJs suspension since I purchased it. I don't get to ride it much, but on a recent ride I had some disconcerting experiences with the front end handing. I noticed that when driving over nearly ANY surface imperfections that were in-line with the front wheel (as opposed to crossing the lane of traffic at a 90 deg angle) the front end gets really squirrelly. Cracks, crack repairs, combed concrete - anything - the front end wants to track back and fourth somewhat unpredictably. I was wondering if it is more tire-related or suspension related in your opinion. I don't recall the tire manufacturer etc. at present, but the front end is stock with the brake anti-dive system still on it. I have checked the adjustments (anti-dive and preload) to make sure they are set to the same on both sides, etc. I think I filled the forks with the recommended weight of motor oil on last change - 10W-30 perhaps? Whatever the Haynes service manual recommended.
Oh, this is in addition to the constant shimmy at speed (even after balancing the front wheel) as well as noticeable deceleration wobble.....Not exactly confidence building.
Any ideas would be appreciated.
Quote from: MN Made on October 13, 2014, 02:34:06 AM
Hi All: I have read several posts about the flaky front ends on the FJs and different modifications to improve handling and response. Alas, I have done no modifications to my FJs suspension since I purchased it. I don't get to ride it much, but on a recent ride I had some disconcerting experiences with the front end handing. I noticed that when driving over nearly ANY surface imperfections that were in-line with the front wheel (as opposed to crossing the lane of traffic at a 90 deg angle) the front end gets really squirrelly. Cracks, crack repairs, combed concrete - anything - the front end wants to track back and fourth somewhat unpredictably. I was wondering if it is more tire-related or suspension related in your opinion. I don't recall the tire manufacturer etc. at present, but the front end is stock with the brake anti-dive system still on it. I have checked the adjustments (anti-dive and preload) to make sure they are set to the same on both sides, etc. I think I filled the forks with the recommended weight of motor oil on last change - 10W-30 perhaps? Whatever the Haynes service manual recommended.
Oh, this is in addition to the constant shimmy at speed (even after balancing the front wheel) as well as noticeable deceleration wobble.....Not exactly confidence building.
Any ideas would be appreciated.
If air pressures are good, I bet it`s primarily a tyre wear problem. (First place to start I reckon.) :drinks:
Quote from: The General on October 13, 2014, 03:05:16 AM
Quote from: MN Made on October 13, 2014, 02:34:06 AM
Hi All: I have read several posts about the flaky front ends on the FJs and different modifications to improve handling and response.
If air pressures are good, I bet it`s primarily a tyre wear problem. (First place to start I reckon.) :drinks:
I agree with Doug, what you describe is classic tyres. If it is severe, I would look at tyre compatibility, not with the bike, but each other.
I assume you have checked all the obvious stuff like things left loose, wheel alignment etc
IMO, the "flaky front end" reputation on the FJ is rubbish. Yes, it can be improved on, just like many other parts of the bike, but that doesn't mean there is anything wrong with a standard front end, assuming it is in good order. The forks on the vast majority of FJ's out there remain standard, mine included, in fact it's about the only thing that remains standard on my bike.
They can be made better, but it's never going to get you into trouble (like me for saying this) if everything else is in good order.
Noel
Usual disclaimer
Quote from: MN Made on October 13, 2014, 02:34:06 AMHi All: I have done no modifications to my FJs suspension since I purchased it. on a recent ride I had some disconcerting experiences with the front end handing. I noticed that when driving over nearly ANY surface imperfections that were in-line with the front wheel (as opposed to crossing the lane of traffic at a 90 deg angle) the front end gets really squirrelly. Cracks, crack repairs, combed concrete - anything - the front end wants to track back and fourth somewhat unpredictably. I was wondering if it is more tire-related or suspension related in your opinion. Oh, this is in addition to the constant shimmy at speed (even after balancing the front wheel) as well as noticeable deceleration wobble.....Not exactly confidence building. Any ideas would be appreciated.
MN Made,
I had similar complaints with my FJ1100, until I changed the tires out for Pirelli Sport Demons. It was like getting a new bike! The handling became inspiring. Roadway grooves are seldom felt, and a very minor concern even then. Sixteen inch tire sets are not available in many brands of tires now. Avon makes radial tires in the correct sizes, but I have not tried them. Wheel balancing is very important, of course.
Cheers,
Red
Quote from: The General on October 13, 2014, 03:05:16 AM
I bet it`s primarily a tyre wear problem. (First place to start I reckon.) :drinks:
+1 :good2:
Quote from: ribbert on October 13, 2014, 06:35:27 AM
IMO, the "flaky front end" reputation on the FJ is rubbish. Yes, it can be improved on, just like many other parts of the bike, but that doesn't mean there is anything wrong with a standard front end, assuming it is in good order. The forks on the vast majority of FJ's out there remain standard, mine included, in fact it's about the only thing that remains standard on my bike.
They can be made better, but it's never going to get you into trouble (like me for saying this) if everything else is in good order. Noel Usual disclaimer
+1 :drinks:
Quote from: red on October 13, 2014, 09:20:52 AM
Pirelli Sport Demons. Wheel balancing is very important, of course. Cheers, Red
+1 :good2:
If everything else checks out...Straight forks, good seals, the right fork oil/level, a brake caliper(s) not binding,
binding hmmmm, bad gas, bloated belly, constipation, oooops wrong thread :pardon: :yahoo: etc, then check/replace your tire(s), balance and go ride/enjoy your FJ buddy... :good2:
John.
Quote from: red on October 13, 2014, 09:20:52 AM
Quote from: MN Made link=topic=12704.msg126429#msg126429 date=1413185646some Avon makes radial tires in the correct sizes, but I have not tried them.
Cheers,
Red/quote]
I agree on the tyres. I Just fitted my second set of Avon's. The new Storm 3Ds and after a 100km scrub in ride 2 words come to mind Confidence Inspiring. I had to keep reminding myself not to push it in the corners as I was scrubbing them in.
Bye the time I got to my favourite set of twisties all bets were off. It was turning in with very little input. Holding its line well through corners with no wobbles or shakes and all this with standard suspension.
IMO these tyres are as close to the feel of 17" mod as you will get with 16" tyres.
http://avon-tyres.co.uk/motorcycle/storm-3d-x-m (http://avon-tyres.co.uk/motorcycle/storm-3d-x-m)
No I don't work for Avon.
Darran
Check your fork brace also. An aftermarket fork brace is a nice add on. :good2: Just get it on the center stand and check everything out closely. Head bearings down to the tire. It is fixable. Let us know what you fine out.
George
be sure to check your steering stem bearings.
I ran on the Avon AV 45/46 combo for a few years before I upgraded to 17". Good tires, mileage is low if you stay in the twisties. 3 to 4 K miles at best... I also ride with others that like the Pirelli Sport Demon in 16", seems like a good tire as well...
Order of operations:
new front tire (usually the cure) ($120)
wheel bearings (often neglected) ($50)
head bearings (no experience with these as yet) (?)
fork brace (a welcome and easy addition) ($130)
fork springs (a little involved, but worth it) ($150)
fork valves ( the icing on the cake) ($150)
Andy
(I'm kinda guessing the prices a bit)
My 93 with bias ply tires rides this same way with all of the RPM fork & suspension upgrades incorporated.
I am riding it this way as I gather all of the parts to change over to the wider front wheel and the 17" rear over the rainy season.
Randy- RPM
Has anyone tried to install a steering damper? It seems like it would help - especially with the deceleration wobble.
Steering dampers are not needed on our FJ's unless your running the salt flats.
...or drag racers? Calling AndyB for that question.
The rake, trail and length of the wheelbase dictates that we have very stable bikes.
If you need a damper, something's wrong.
http://bikearama.com/theory/motorcycle-rake-trail-explained/ (http://bikearama.com/theory/motorcycle-rake-trail-explained/)
The FJ does not need a steering damper, when set up properly, it is rock solid in the corners. However, if you chose to install one it may mask or hide issues till they become worse and you have to fix what you needed to fix in the first place. Properly set up stock forks, good bearings, good tires, proper air pressure etc.... Before I upgraded to 89+ forks, RPM fork valves & fork brace, 87/88 FZR1000 front wheel, Blue dot calipers, Braided lines, Galfer knock off rotors, HH pads and a cool miniature Red Power Ranger taped to the front fender. I ran on the Avons and still rubbed the tires to the edges on the Kalifornia Kanyons. The FJ is a stable platform to ride in nearly any condition. I am sure many will offer their opinions from around the world...
Quote from: Pat Conlon on October 15, 2014, 07:04:09 PM
Steering dampers are not needed on our FJ's unless your running the salt flats.
...or drag racers? Calling AndyB for that question.
The rake, tail and length of the wheelbase dictates that we have very stable bikes.
If you need a damper, something's wrong.
+1 Pat. I would not put a band aid on to fix the problem. There has been some very good advice given already. Start with one thing at a time. First I would get a new front tire and make sure it is properly balanced and inflated. Dave 84 Fj1100
[
+ 2 the FJ is the most stable motorcycle I've ever ridden.
Out of ALL the times I experienced a front end wobble a new front tire cured it EVERY time.
G'day,
I have an 85' also. When I get front end wobble, I first check tyre pressure, then tighten steering head bearings. Real easy job and cures "the wobble" too. A square tyre will feel really flakey over uneven surfaces.
Best way to check if it is steering head bearings without dismantling? While riding, decelerate and remove both hands from handlebar, keep them close 'coz if you start to get head shake you can put your hands back. No head shake? Bearings are sweet.
Just my experience..
cheers, Gareth
4-sure if the steering stem bearings are loose you will get a scary progressive weave "hands off" when decelerating. But if they are too tight you can get a slow weave at moderate speed (say 30-40). So, you need to get in the Goldlocks zone (just right).
A set of "All Balls" tapered bearings is a 25 dollar investment that I strongly suggest.
With bearings of unknown condition you will be looking for a notchy feel, or a "home base" (where the forks seem to want to stay) as you turn the bars through their arc with the front wheel off the ground. Anything other than a smooth travel through that arc indicates a bearing problem (clean/lube/or replace).
If all is smooth, the drill is to set the bearing tension so that with the front wheel off the floor and pointed straight ahead, nudging either handlebar-end slightly will cause the wheel to flop over gently and fall to the steering stop.
If it falls quickly and slams into the stop, the bearings are too loose. If it falls sluggishly the bearings are too tight.
Once you get the bearing tension in the ballpark, put some miles on the bike and then check them again. Of course if you experience a wobble "some miles" means until the wobble.
It is not unusual to have more than one cause to a problem, but this is one that is easy to eliminate
Quote from: Burns on October 17, 2014, 06:40:57 PM
If all is smooth, the drill is to set the bearing tension so that with the front wheel off the floor and pointed straight ahead, nudging either handlebar-end slightly will cause the wheel to flop over gently and fall to the steering stop.
If it falls quickly and slams into the stop, the bearings are too loose. If it falls sluggishly the bearings are too tight.
Burns, I've always had a bit of a problem with this method. It is compromised by hoses, wires and freshly packed bearings and usually differs from left to right. I believe it to be an unreliable indicator, as are other recommended methods such as a torque value, not so much the torque value itself, but the practicality of accurately applying it.
I use the same simple adjustment method that is universal (and what I was taught in trade school) for tapered front wheel bearings on cars, nip it up until is is "seated" and back it off a whisker.
I have never had occasion to believe this gives anything other than a perfect adjustment for tapered bearings.
Just another opinion.
Noel
Usual disclaimer
True enough, Noel. Though the method I describe is pretty much "old school" standard it does assume that the front end is not encumbered.
I think that using either technique most folks will get a base line and will generally need to tweak it a bit to get everything "sweet". Bearings sometimes seat a tad, which loosens things up. You may be compensating for that, with the benefit of a sophisticated touch.
It's pretty subjective, and I suspect that you are getting it right the first time now because with your experience you have developed a feel for it. "muscle knowledge" cannot be taught any way other than experience.
just my opinion too, of course.
Just to mention it, as no one has yet. Tire pressure up front MINIMUM 38 lbs. Those of you doing the twists probably like a little more?
Quote from: bigbore2 on October 21, 2014, 01:06:16 AM
Just to mention it, as no one has yet. Tire pressure up front MINIMUM 38 lbs. Those of you doing the twists probably like a little more?
When attending a Californian Superbike School day, two guys with a compressor walk up the entire line of bikes at the start of the day and lower everyone's tyres to 30 psi.
Like most race tracks Philip Island has the usual mix of very fast and very tight corners.
Noel
Quote from: ribbert on October 21, 2014, 05:39:08 AM
When attending a Californian Superbike School day, two guys with a compressor walk up the entire line of bikes at the start of the day and lower everyone's tyres to 30 psi.
Noel
Sorry, I just have to ask...
Why do they need a compressor to lower tire pressure?
If you are riding a stock FJ, you should follow Yamaha's recommended tire pressure settings.
(http://i1215.photobucket.com/albums/cc517/racerrad8/007_zps8eaf17cc.jpg~original) (http://s1215.photobucket.com/user/racerrad8/media/007_zps8eaf17cc.jpg.html)
If suspension modifications have been applied to the bike, then you need to check with them and see if they have different pressure setting in place.
I know RPM has different pressure recommendations based on installed RPM components.
Randy - RPM
Quote from: ribbert on October 21, 2014, 05:39:08 AM
Quote from: bigbore2 on October 21, 2014, 01:06:16 AM
Just to mention it, as no one has yet. Tire pressure up front MINIMUM 38 lbs. Those of you doing the twists probably like a little more?
When attending a Californian Superbike School day, two guys with a compressor walk up the entire line of bikes at the start of the day and lower everyone's tyres to 30 psi.
Like most race tracks Philip Island has the usual mix of very fast and very tight corners.
Noel
What tires were they running? We run 30fr, 26rr cold on Dunlop Q3's. This is for track only as you build up a lot of heat in a track session.
A lot of tires vary on the optimal tire pressure but 36/42 is pretty common for sport touring rubber (radial). A good starting point if you really want to dial in a set of tires is by comparing cold and 'hot' pressures.
To do this measure the pressure in tour tires cold. and then ride the bike as you normally ride for about 30 minutes and recheck the pressures. you should see a gain of 10% front and 15% rear if you are running radial tires (10-10 for bias). These formulas were given to me when I was running a shop by more than one tire mfg rep and have proven to be reliable.
On an unknown bike or tire I generally start at the lowest recomended pressure and calculate/adjust from there.
basically if you start at 32psi cold you should see 35.2psi hot front and 36.8 rear. if you see a gain of more than 10%fr / 15%Rr you need to raise the starting pressure. Less, you need to lower it.
Running lower pressures/ higher gain will give more traction at the expense of tire life and is common for track day users. Running (slightly) higher start pressures with less pressure gain gives better mileage at the expense of grip and ride quality
I am sure someone will claim I am completely wrong and that wiki discribes the physics differently, but it works for this hilbilly and will likely work for you as well.
Quote from: racerrad8 on October 21, 2014, 10:45:28 AM
Quote from: ribbert on October 21, 2014, 05:39:08 AM
When attending a Californian Superbike School day, two guys with a compressor walk up the entire line of bikes at the start of the day and lower everyone's tyres to 30 psi.
Noel
Sorry, I just have to ask...
Why do they need a compressor to lower tire pressure?
If you are riding a stock FJ, you should follow Yamaha's recommended tire pressure settings.
(http://i1215.photobucket.com/albums/cc517/racerrad8/007_zps8eaf17cc.jpg~original) (http://s1215.photobucket.com/user/racerrad8/media/007_zps8eaf17cc.jpg.html)
If suspension modifications have been applied to the bike, then you need to check with them and see if they have different pressure setting in place.
I know RPM has different pressure recommendations based on installed RPM components.
Randy - RPM
Haha, I knew someone would pick up on that, I asked the same question. It's for the surprising number of riders that turn up for the day with
less than 30 psi. He told me some arrive with tyre pressures in the teens.
This was level one and a lot of the participants were not seasoned riders. They get answers like " how could that be, I had it serviced last year" etc.
I test rode a bike I was intending to buy recently, it rode like a truck. The particular model has a tyre pressure monitor on it (no excuse) The tyres were both just above 20 psi on a 1200cc bike. I pointed this out to the owner who just gave me that "so what" look. It was a BMW though and hence, a BMW owner! :biggrin:
Noel
Thank you "the fan" I cut and pasted your comments and put them in a notebook of m/c info
that I keep