OK, I've already paid for and received a Metzeler 120/80 VB16 tire for my stock rimmed '85 FJ1100. The GYSM calls for a 120/80 V16. I found out that the B means "belted bias-ply tire" instead of just "regular biased ply tire." The GYSM doesn't even mention the type of biased-ply, or even that it is biased-ply. I'm assuming there were no VB's back when the manual was copyrighted, and that Yamaha meant for it to use a regular biased-ply tire.
Did I perform a royal SNAFU (screw up)?
I'm having it mounted tomorrow.
TIA!
FJ Forever! :drinks:
JoBrCo
You'll be fine with that tire
Quote from: FJ_Hooligan on September 04, 2014, 01:06:53 PM
You'll be fine with that tire
Thanks Hooli. Will the handling/ride change with it's use? I originally thought that it's an upgrade, a method to make a biased-ply more like a radial. I just wondered why Metzeler still manufactures both types of tires. The make both a:
120/80 V 16 M/C (60V) TL
and a:
120/80 VB 16 M/C (60V) TL
and I'm left wondering why?
FJ Forever! :drinks:
JoBrCo
All tires are belted.
Belted bias ply is redundant.
a bis ply tire has belts criss crossing across the tread surface. usually called out as _B
A radial tire has the belts along the tread surface. Usually caled out as _R
you are fine.
Quote from: the fan on September 04, 2014, 01:26:21 PM
All tires are belted.
Belted bias ply is redundant.
a bis ply tire has belts criss crossing across the tread surface. usually called out as _B
A radial tire has the belts along the tread surface. Usually caled out as _R
you are fine.
Thanks for your time, 'The Fan', I really do appreciate it, but actually that's not exactly correct; not quite redundant. Check out this link (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tire#Construction_types).
Here are two excerpts from the link (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tire#Construction_types); Wikipedia:
"
Bias tire (or cross ply) construction utilizes body ply cords that extend diagonally from bead to bead, usually at angles in the range of 30 to 40 degrees, with successive plies laid at opposing angles forming a crisscross pattern to which the tread is applied."
"A
belted bias tire starts with two or more bias-plies to which stabilizer belts are bonded directly beneath the tread. This construction provides smoother ride that is similar to the bias tire, while lessening rolling resistance because the belts increase tread stiffness." --Wikipedia--
After reading this I'm thinking VB's are better that vanilla V's, does it sound to you guys, like "lessening rolling resistance" is a good thing for motorcycle riding?
FJ Forever! :drinks:
JoBrCo
JoBrCo:
Two knowledgeable people said that you'd be fine. Just ride the bike, wear out the tires, if you like them, buy them again. If not, there's a few others in the 16" size to try out anyways. A lot of variables in tires, riding styles, and conditions. When you click on one of them you're golden!
Quote from: FJ1100mjk on September 04, 2014, 02:19:26 PM
JoBrCo:
Two knowledgeable people said that you'd be fine. Just ride the bike, wear out the tires, if you like them, buy them again. If not, there's a few others in the 16" size to try out anyways. A lot of variables in tires, riding styles, and conditions. When you click on one of them you're golden!
Why do I feel like I'm being scolded?
I don't think you understand the riddle of the men of MAD; fear the mind killer!
I'm trying to get some help, I don't see the problem, with an "exchange" of information; "knowledge."
I bought this tire from Amazon, when it checked the fitment their system said that it did not fit my bike, I called them and argued that it did and their system was incorrect. After buying anyway, and doing more research, I thought that maybe I was wrong, so I decided to ask here, for anyone that knows this situation from experience. I take my life seriously, more importantly my wife's, so I want to be DAMNED sure I'm doing the right thing, especially in the eyes of an EXPERT! In a perfect world there is no conflict due to inquiry, whether it calls for revision or not, machismo should not get in the way of intellect; the formation of definitive knowledge, where all is considered.
At least to me, that seems quite logical!
I'm not here to fight, purely for receiving and giving help!
Quote from: JoBrCo on September 04, 2014, 02:26:17 PM
Why do I feel like I'm being scolded?
You feel what you feel. I and no one else can change that, only you.
I was only relating that you had been provided two answers to your question "Did I perform a royal SNAFU (screw up)?". The answers were overwhelmingly no. I further related what I have found by going through multiple sets (all 16" size) of tires on my FJ's.
I and the others provided help, something you asked for, but mine was construed as scolding. If so, well, you can look at the first sentence of my response above.
**************************************************************************************************************
'Employ your time in improving yourself by other men's writings, so that you shall gain easily what others have labored hard for.'
--Socrates--
**************************************************************************************************************
You can bother to reply again, but I won't. :flag_of_truce:
I see no problem with asking questions, even when this leads to challenging the answers given by experts after further research.
Sometimes (like above) the experts are wrong... and more often than not in this interwebs world the "experts" might not be.
I make a pretty good living questioning the answers.
Quote from: JoBrCo on September 04, 2014, 12:57:36 PM
OK, I've already paid for and received a Metzeler 120/80 VB16 tire for my stock rimmed '85 FJ1100.
JoBrCo
Which Metzeler tire did you get?
Quote from: FJ1100mjk on September 04, 2014, 04:21:58 PM
Quote from: JoBrCo on September 04, 2014, 02:26:17 PM
Why do I feel like I'm being scolded?
You feel what you feel. I and no one else can change that, only you.
I was only relating that you had been provided two answers to your question "Did I perform a royal SNAFU (screw up)?". The answers were overwhelmingly no. I further related what I have found by going through multiple sets (all 16" size) of tires on my FJ's.
I and the others provided help, something you asked for, but mine was construed as scolding. If so, well, you can look at the first sentence of my response above.
**************************************************************************************************************
'Employ your time in improving yourself by other men's writings, so that you shall gain easily what others have labored hard for.'
--Socrates--
**************************************************************************************************************
You can bother to reply again, but I won't. :flag_of_truce:
Fitting as you shot the first volley. Make no mistake, I'm not a motorcycle expert, nor is anyone here, probably, as owning one does not necessarily make it so. But I am pretty much an expert on human behavior, blame it on university, classes in philosophy and psychology, and a lifetime of making it a point to observe people, asking questions as to their motivations.
Your original was not as much in the vein of helping as it was scolding, for questioning "knowledgeable" people, as that's what you lead off with, your main concern, first to your mind, the fact that I didn't listen, as if I'm bound too do so. The rest trivializing my worry. A rich mans resolve at best, a careless mans resolve at worst. I'm not here for that kind of crap, I don't need to be manhandled, I can do that for myself. ;)
******************************************************************************************************
In actuality the most important quote of Socrates is the one below in my sig, as it keeps men grounded, that truly understand it.
******************************************************************************************************
but here it is again: 'I only know that I know nothing' --Socrates--
******************************************************
It seems slightly contradictory to your quote, doesn't it? And therein lies the grounding. Or at least it should! Or so it would surely seem...
Justification?
An old proverb:
'Men are four.
He who knows not, and knows not he knows not;
He who knows not, and knows he knows not;
He who knows and knows not he knows;
He who knows and knows he knows.'
But the real question is, considering the above proverb, how would anyone 'know' in which of these four categories they belonged, concerning any particular bit of, so called' knowledge, as one cannot know what they don't know, then I defer all men to that quote of Socrates, 'I only know that I know nothing' which in fact points directly to the part of the proverb in red above, and in truth is where most men lie, universally speaking. So then should anyone be demeaned for not knowing, well it would seem certainly not, as the one doing the demeaning could be of the purple type man.
While in truth no man could know of which type man he is, it's safest for all concerned to initially believe one is of type two (red) as that is the most empathetic and honest, making allowances for everyone! Everyone all inclusive, what a nice thought, considering the actual state of knowledge!
FJ Forever! :drinks:
JoBrCo
Quote from: the fan on September 04, 2014, 05:12:32 PM
I see no problem with asking questions, even when this leads to challenging the answers given by experts after further research.
Sometimes (like above) the experts are wrong... and more often than not in this interwebs world the "experts" might not be.
I make a pretty good living questioning the answers.
And so should we all, and not be demeaned because of it, if we understand the truth you have mentioned, that I agree with. Such is why I ask. This response of yours is a wise one indeed, and not because it's what I have come to understand, but because I truly see it as truth, though I'm probably biased as well, aren't we all. ;)
So destination or journey? Which is it?
FJ Forever! :drinks:
JoBrCo
Quote from: Capn Ron on September 04, 2014, 05:58:11 PM
Quote from: JoBrCo on September 04, 2014, 12:57:36 PM
OK, I've already paid for and received a Metzeler 120/80 VB16 tire for my stock rimmed '85 FJ1100.
JoBrCo
Which Metzeler tire did you get?
I picked up the, "120/80
VB 16 M/C (60V) TL."
Not the, "120/80
V 16 M/C (60V) TL."
I know I'll probably regret this but, why? :biggrin:
FJ Forever! :drinks:
JoBrCo
I've tried a lot of tires and even mixed bias and radial.
My best summary: As long as they fit the rim, were made of that black rubbery substance, and had a round shape, I have never had any serious complaints about traction and performance.
My worst complaint (as I have mentioned in other threads) is disappointment in tread life on a few that I've tried.
Quote from: JoBrCo on September 04, 2014, 06:10:49 PM
Quote from: Capn Ron on September 04, 2014, 05:58:11 PM
Quote from: JoBrCo on September 04, 2014, 12:57:36 PM
OK, I've already paid for and received a Metzeler 120/80 VB16 tire for my stock rimmed '85 FJ1100.
JoBrCo
Which Metzeler tire did you get?
I picked up the, "120/80 VB 16 M/C (60V) TL."
Not the, "120/80 V 16 M/C (60V) TL."
I know I'll probably regret this but, why? :biggrin:
FJ Forever! :drinks:
JoBrCo
I read the size and V versus VB in your original post. I was asking which Metzeler tire you purchased. The Lasertec or the ME880??
Why? Because I can give you feedback on the ME880 as I've toured extensively with these.
Quote from: FJ_Hooligan on September 04, 2014, 06:29:38 PM
I've tried a lot of tires and even mixed bias and radial.
My best summary: As long as they fit the rim, were made of that black rubbery substance, and had a round shape, I have never had any serious complaints about traction and performance.
My worst complaint (as I have mentioned in other threads) is disappointment in tread life on a few that I've tried.
Thanks hooli, I can always count on you for honest opinion in an attempt to help, though maybe a little cheeky, like we 'all' can sometimes be, I'm working on it. ;)
Yeah, I bought some Metzeler K-comp tires, back in the day, when the FJ1100 was a new bike, they wore down really quick but, the traction was "off the chain," (been watching "Americas Got Talent," especially Mel B, I love her English accent, and the rest isn't bad either. ;) ). They actually felt sticky when hot, and little rolls of rubber could be found on the extreme edges of the tires, especially the rear, yes I'd take her to the limits. My best, most charged moment, was on a big sweeper, doing x times the speed limit and the rear tire actually started to fade under acceleration, so I slightly backed off the throttle, regaining traction, so I increased it again, and again it started to fade, so I slightly let off, and traction resumed. I was so thrilled that with the specific physics present, I had taken it to the edge of possibility. Those tires were short lived, but what a wild ride it was! :dance2:
FJ Forever! :drinks:
JoBrCo
Quote from: Capn Ron on September 04, 2014, 07:02:13 PM
Quote from: JoBrCo on September 04, 2014, 06:10:49 PM
Quote from: Capn Ron on September 04, 2014, 05:58:11 PM
Quote from: JoBrCo on September 04, 2014, 12:57:36 PM
OK, I've already paid for and received a Metzeler 120/80 VB16 tire for my stock rimmed '85 FJ1100.
JoBrCo
Which Metzeler tire did you get?
I picked up the, "120/80 VB 16 M/C (60V) TL."
Not the, "120/80 V 16 M/C (60V) TL."
I know I'll probably regret this but, why? :biggrin:
FJ Forever! :drinks:
JoBrCo
I read the size and V versus VB in your original post. I was asking which Metzeler tire you purchased. The Lasertec or the ME880??
Why? Because I can give you feedback on the ME880 as I've toured extensively with these.
Thanks Capn! I see now, yeah I assumed everyone knew that I can only purchase the Lasertec's because that's the only one Metzeler makes in the 16" rim size these days. A long time ago I had a set of those ME880's, I believe, they sound familiar. I know for a fact I had some sort of ME set. You must have larger rims, I'm assuming!
Thanks for your time my friend, as it's the one thing, most of us, shall always want more of! :good2:
FJ Forever! :drinks:
JoBrCo
Quote from: FJ1100mjk on September 04, 2014, 02:19:26 PM
...If not, there's a few others in the 16" size to try out anyways.
And depending on just how much you ride, you might get to check out _ALL_ the 16" varieties still available within a years' time.
Steve
(I sense a war a brewin' just haven't read up to it yet! I think FJMonkey predicted it in a recent post.)
(popcorn)
Quote from: Steve_in_Florida on September 04, 2014, 07:19:42 PM
Quote from: FJ1100mjk on September 04, 2014, 02:19:26 PM
...If not, there's a few others in the 16" size to try out anyways.
And depending on just how much you ride, you might get to check out all the 16" varieties still available within a years' time.
Steve
(I sense a war a brewin' just haven't read up to it yet! I think FJMonkey predicted it in a recent post.)
(popcorn)
No war monger here, just one needing help and willing to give it to those that want it; To pay it forward!
I heard that actually many are returning to 16" rims. Forgot where though, so I can't say it's reliable, I'm just being hopeful. More of a gyroscopic effect at any given ground speed though, right? In one case more mass, less RPM's, in the other, less mass greater RPM's, which affects the gyroscopic effect more, as it pertains to motorcycle tires? Mass or RPM's, at the rate they change of course. A study, anyone?
Hey Steve, do you expect a "gang-bang," you know a "mob's rule" kind of thing, as that surely assures victory, right?
Do you think that anyone believes for a second that I've ever said anything derogatory towards anyone here. I hope not because it's never happened, I can't say the same for the opposite though. I've been told I got to, "watch it!" Not that anyone would necessarily know but that's the worse thing anyone could say to me. Should anyone hold another accountable for ignorance. Only the unenlightened would say yes! Which is why I ignored it!
FJ Forever! :drinks:
JoBrCo
Quote from: JoBrCo on September 04, 2014, 07:34:08 PM
Hey Steve, do you expect a "gang-bang,"...
I dunno. You buyin'?
Actually, you're one of the tame ones. A bit < w i n d e d >, but "mostly harmless".
Cheers, Bud!
Steve
Quote from: Steve_in_Florida on September 04, 2014, 08:05:24 PM
Quote from: JoBrCo on September 04, 2014, 07:34:08 PM
Hey Steve, do you expect a "gang-bang,"...
I dunno. You buyin'? (JoBrCo: not especially)
Actually, you're one of the tame ones. A bit < w i n d e d >, but "mostly harmless". (JoBrCo: that's to ensure clarity for "everyone," despite others sharpness.)
Cheers, Bud! (JoBrCo: And cheers to you my friend!)
Steve
Thanks Steve, to do no harm, yes, that's one of my mission statements. Thanks for the complement! ;) Do you think it's because my VA appointed doctor said my testosterone is low? I think that could be it, damn that's great, for my mind to be free of the affects of chemicals, well sort of! ;)
FJ Forever! :drinks:
JoBrCo
To top all this BS off, I believe I'm happy that I purchased the Lasertec VB's. They sound like a smoother more certain ride!
Thanks for all those that spat up food for thought, it tasted wonderful. Gawd that sounds gross! :crazy:
FJ Forever! :drinks:
JoBrCo
Quote from: JoBrCo on September 04, 2014, 07:15:24 PM
Thanks Capn! I see now, yeah I assumed everyone knew that I can only purchase the Lasertec's because that's the only one Metzeler makes in the 16" rim size these days.
JoBrCo
My mistake...I saw 16" and assumed it was a rear tire. Carry on...
Now you know you wont get off the hook that easy! Im kind of in that tyres is tyres state of mind. They should be round, balenced, stick to the road, and wear well. I have a Lazertec up front with aprox. 8000 mi. on it and I'm gonna get another couple thousand out of it before our seasons over. 6000 plus on the Avon Venom. New tyres for sure for next year. I kind of like the 16 in. tyres with their "gyroscopiness"...but the 16 front isnt too good off road...a19 up front 17 rear jacked up suspenders, highpipes, big block tyres, ect...FJ-ADV-Super Tenere!!! hell yeah! I'd ride that! I have an extra motor and frame...sorry got a little off track but anythings possible. . What is the difference between the V and the VB anyway. Both my tyres are H rated and I feel safe going plenty fast on them. :good2: Cheers, Charley. :drinks:
Sorry, just read the original post. Now I know the difference between V and VB. Look back before you reply....so tired! Good night. Charley.
Quote from: JoBrCo on September 04, 2014, 07:34:08 PM
I heard that actually many are returning to 16" rims. Forgot where though, so I can't say it's reliable, I'm just being hopeful. More of a gyroscopic effect at any given ground speed though, right? In one case more mass, less RPM's, in the other, less mass greater RPM's, which affects the gyroscopic effect more, as it pertains to motorcycle tires? Mass or RPM's, at the rate they change of course. A study, anyone?
You are grasping at straws here.
It's all about weight savings and superior tire technology (and better tire selection) and not about the higher tire speeds from the tire size difference.
On the front: The circumference difference (thus rpm difference) between the oem 120/80-16 front wheel and the popular 120/70-17 conversion is less than 1%.
However, the weight savings is significant. The oem 16" rims with the bias ply 120/80 tires are pig heavy vs. the 3 spoke 17" rim and modern radial tires.
On the rear: The same, the circumference difference between the oem 150/80-16 and the popular 170/60-17 radial is less than 2% but the weight savings is huge.
The net result on the 17" rim/tire conversion for our FJ's is a bike with lighter, wider rims and modern designed radial tires with more lateral grip and longer mileage with more stability, with lighter steering, higher speed rating and less gyroscopic effects. The tiny increase in wheel speed is absolutely no factor at all....
Keep telling yourself that people are converting their FJ's back to the narrow, heavy 16" rims so they can buy a limited selection of tires designed with 1980 technology....if it makes you feel better.
However, it is not the truth.
Quote from: Pat Conlon on September 04, 2014, 10:43:18 PM
Quote from: JoBrCo on September 04, 2014, 07:34:08 PM
I heard that actually many are returning to 16" rims. Forgot where though, so I can't say it's reliable, I'm just being hopeful. More of a gyroscopic effect at any given ground speed though, right? In one case more mass, less RPM's, in the other, less mass greater RPM's, which affects the gyroscopic effect more, as it pertains to motorcycle tires? Mass or RPM's, at the rate they change of course. A study, anyone?
You are grasping at straws here.
It's all about weight savings and superior tire technology (and better tire selection) and not about the higher tire speeds from the tire size difference.
What is this "it" to which you refer? I was referring to this: "Several factors, including geometry, mass distribution, and
gyroscopic effect all contribute in varying degrees to this self-stability, but long-standing hypotheses and claims that any single effect, such as gyroscopic or trail, is solely responsible for the stabilizing force have been discredited." --Wikipedia--
Quote from: Pat Conlon on September 04, 2014, 10:43:18 PMOn the front: The circumference difference (thus rpm difference) between the oem 120/80-16 front wheel and the popular 120/70-17 conversion is less than 1%.
However, the weight savings is significant. The oem 16" rims with the bias ply 120/80 tires are pig heavy vs. the 3 spoke 17" rim and modern radial tires.
The more massive a gyroscopes flywheel, and the greater it's speed, the greater it's gyroscopic effect, was my point, that's all. The amount is irrelevant, more is more, while less is less, simple.
Quote from: Pat Conlon on September 04, 2014, 10:43:18 PMOn the rear: The same, the circumference difference between the oem 150/80-16 and the popular 170/60-17 radial is less than 2% but the weight savings is huge.
Same as above, yet more so obviously!
Quote from: Pat Conlon on September 04, 2014, 10:43:18 PMThe net result on the 17" rim/tire conversion for our FJ's is a bike with lighter, wider rims and modern designed radial tires with more lateral grip and longer mileage with more stability, with lighter steering, higher speed rating and less gyroscopic effects. The tiny increase in wheel speed is absolutely no factor at all....
Not, "
absolutely no factor at all," you're exaggerating to support your point. In truth you could say "relatively not much of a factor," with certainty. Or maybe negligible, but of course I'd disagree. :biggrin:
Quote from: Pat Conlon on September 04, 2014, 10:43:18 PMKeep telling yourself that people are converting their FJ's back to the narrow, heavy 16" rims so they can buy a limited selection of tires designed with 1980 technology....if it makes you feel better.
Who are you talking to? Yourself? That's what you said, not I. First it stands to reason that if today one can make a larger wheel less massive, then it can surely be done, even more so, on a smaller wheel. My comment was only about the limited availability of 16 inch tires for my bike. It had nothing to do with FJ's or any other bike owners doing anything. The article said that some motorcycle manufacturers, were thinking on going back to 16 inch wheels, that it may be a new trend. If you have a problem with that, talk to the author of the article, don't blame me. I just said that I was hopeful that it was true, "so I had more buying options, I want to be able to choose sticky tires if I feel so inclined."
It's all about demand and supply my friend. If the motorcycle manufactures started making more 16 inch wheels, then the tire manufacturers would follow, for that market share, then I'd have more options.
Quote from: Pat Conlon on September 04, 2014, 10:43:18 PMHowever, it is not the truth.
And now you believe yourself clairvoyant, sheesh!
It would certainly seem that some people on this forum will do anything to start an argument with me, even go so far as to misrepresent my words to suit their needs. Look I never said I was an English major, people have a bad habit of jumping the gun, just looking for confrontation where ever they look as some sort of self stroking technique. it's best to make sure you know what someone is saying before you hold them accountable for your incorrect interpretation. Ask Frank, I did the same thing to him. ;)
In that case it was my bust, jumping to conclusions, this time it's yours! Of course Frank had a much politer method of letting me know I had made a mistake. I guess I'm having a bad day, experienced a few tears here and there, something must be bothering me, if only I knew what it was, maybe I'm dying? They say the dying sometimes know it unconsciously, and it slips through to the conscious mind on some level.
Alright Pat, take it easy man! ;)
FJ Forever! :drinks:
JoBrCo
Quote from: charleygofast on September 04, 2014, 10:04:27 PM
Sorry, just read the original post. Now I know the difference between V and VB. Look back before you reply....so tired! Good night. Charley.
Okay, before someone corrects me on my dumb-ass comments... my front tyre is a "Lazer ME33 Metzler 120/80-16" and it is V rated not H !!! Sorry...I said I was tired. A good day to all! :morning2: Charley.
Quote from: the fan on September 04, 2014, 05:12:32 PM
I see no problem with asking questions, even when this leads to challenging the answers given by experts after further research.
Sometimes (like above) the experts are wrong... and more often than not in this interwebs world the "experts" might not be.
I make a pretty good living questioning the answers.
OK, I'll bite, what
do you do for a living?
Noel
I work in the industriaization engineering department of a tier 1 automotive company. Some of my responsibilities include planning and designing tooling on a global scale, Managing 2 engineers who bring in new manufacturing equipment and improve the processes and manage quality equipment for products tat have tolerances less than 3 microns.
My operating budget last year was slightly over 90 million USD.
I also handle project management for our division including a $250,000,000 building expansion a few years ago.
I support plants in the US, Germany, France, Hungary and China and ship parts to all.
Luckily I knew what the definition of "bias" and "belted" was, long before coming here. All that's required is a simple dictionary, borrowed from your local library. They are neither synonymous nor is using them together, a case of redundancy. Money was not required, rather education, which can require money, I still have a college loan I'm paying on at 56, but the internet is full of sound educational resources if one looks in the right places.
The only reason I sought clarification on wikipedia, as to the two different types of tires, is because of this knowledge of the difference of the two words in question. There are actually patents listed with the US Patent Office, that explains the difference between bias-ply and belted bias-ply tires. There is a difference, as to it's significance, well I guess that's an opinion, to be expressed by their users, not necessarily factually based; not necessarily definitive.
After much education in this matter, I'm glad I got the VB (belted bias-ply) tires. At least in theory, they're better tires than the vanilla bias-ply.
FJ Forever! :drinks:
JoBrCo