I'm sure you've seen this scene before: a group of motorcycles (often, but not limited to cruisers) pulls up to an intersection. Maybe they're part of a rally or just going out for a Sunday afternoon ride. I've often been on my bike or in my vehicle waiting behind that group and notice that as they slow down and come to a stop, every single rider in the group sits there with both feet on the ground, looking as cool as ever, if only to themselves. They certainly don't look cool to me. The light turns green and there they are, popping the bikes back into first gear (did I mention they were all in neutral?) and I'm wondering if I'll be able to make it through the intersection before the light turns yellow. So, what's wrong with this scenario?
As an instructor I've had the pleasure of dealing with a number of student riders of all ages, sizes and shapes. When we begin a typical weekend course at the College we are often asked by the vertically challenged students if we can find a bike for them on which they can put both feet on the ground. In most cases we try to accommodate them as best as possible and we're fortunate to offer a variety of bikes with different seat heights. We recently picked up a few Honda Groms which have to be a notch up from a mini-bike. In talking to new or soon-to-be riders they will tell me about a particular bike that they just purchased or sat on at the dealership and will point out that one of the reasons they chose that particular model is that they can put both feet on the ground when stopped. I'll admit that it is a comforting feeling to be able to put both feet down, especially when you're new, but is it necessary or right?
Myth vs. Reality: So what do I tell these folks that insist they must be able to have both feet on the ground? Using something we CSC instructors call TED (Tact, Encouragement and Diplomacy), I kindly explain to them that having to put both feet down is a load of crap. If that were the case, I (and anyone else under 6') wouldn't be able to ride any large touring, adventure-touring or large off-road motorcycle. So if you don't have to put both feet down, then what?
Ready equals Steady: In the CSC basic motorcycle course we use a term called "The Ready Position" which we continually reference whenever the students come to a stop and every time they are about to start moving off from a stop. Simply put, the Ready Position includes having the left foot down, right foot on the rear brake and both hands on the grips. Of course, this also means that the clutch is pulled in and the bike is in first gear. You are ready to move. It usually only takes a few rides up and down the parking lot for the students (especially the shorter ones) to realize that this method works best. Imagine not being able to touch flat footed with both feet while trying to balance the bike at a stop. The bike (and you) will be precariously on either side of being balanced, shifting weight from one tippy toe to the other - not exactly confidence inspiring. Take that same bike and rider and have them shift over slightly to the left and support themselves with their left foot, using the strength of their upper thigh muscle and the motorcycle (and rider) is way, way more stable.
Added Benefits: Other than being able to balance the bike more securely, there are a few other key benefits to stopping in the ready position. They include (but are not limited to):
1. Now that your right foot is on the peg and not on the ground, you can use it to apply the rear brake. This lets traffic behind you know that you are intending to stop or remain stopped. It also leads into the next point.
2. Since you have the rear brake applied, you can keep your right hand on the throttle. This means that once that light turns green, you can roll on the throttle and you're ready to go!
3. Once you do get moving, you just have to put that left foot back on the peg and you're off. Once you have both feet on the pegs you are lowering the overall center of gravity of you and the bike vs. having both legs dangle like a pendulum as you ride through the intersection. The bike will roll through the intersection without weaving side to side.
4. Ever roll off when the light turns green and then you suddenly have to come to a quick stop because someone pulled in front of you or the car/bike in front suddenly came to a stop? If you started with both feet on the ground and didn't get them up on the pegs yet, guess what – you only have one brake to apply. In slow speed maneuvers the front brake is often exactly the wrong brake to apply, especially if you are in the middle of a left or right turn.
The last point above can (and likely will) lead into a whole other discussion regarding slow speed maneuvers. I stop my FJ in the ready position every time, and that includes the bike fully loaded (tank bag, full Givi side bags and a top case) and with my wife on the back.The right technique to anything always starts at the beginning, with the setup. Try hitting a golf ball with your feet in the wrong position and unless your name is Bubba Watson you're going to have a hard time hitting a good shot. The same is true on a motorcycle except that instead of ending up with a triple bogey you may end up with more than just your feet on the asphalt.
Zwartie
Good luck with trying to convince cruiser riders that being able to flat foot a motorcycle isn't the most important criteria in either purchasing or modifying a motorcycle. I have a nephew with a Sportster that is the epitome of this type of rider. Trying to discuss motorcycles with him is difficult at best.
Joe
Counterarguments just because:
What if you reach down with one foot and the ground isn't where you thought it was? Pothole, puddle of more depth than you thought, etc? Or road is slick from spilled diesel/oil/etc? Over you go, kersplat. Two is more stable because you put them down together, keeping the bike as balanced as you can instead of favoring one side.
Can most riders not grip the brake (front) while controlling the throttle still? It's the same skill you use for blipping on downshifts under braking, yes?
I think I agree to a point. I agree that you should be comfortable with one foot down, but you should be paying attention enough to use either foot, whichever is more appropriate (and the left will generally be the one to use for the reasons you list, the right sometimes for the reasons I list above). It seems to me that it depends on the audience you're working with, and their comfort level with control of the machine that they're astride.
Joe's statement seems to reinforce that the audience is important for this discussion. Advanced riders vs timid beginners vs cruisers vs dualsport riders and so on.
I'll admit sometimes when I'm feeling "on", I'll come to a stop, let the bike rock back on the suspension, and carry on... without ever taking my feet from the pegs. Just because it's fun to practice balancing.
Like I said, mostly arguing to argue. I mean, opening conversation avenues. Really. :hi:
My brother is of the two flat feet genre. Older and new to motorcycling he lacks confidence on a higher bike as (like most beginners) he always puts too much weight on the one foot and has slipped and lost it. (a number of times).
Yeah sure, it takes awhile to minimise the weighted foot when learning, but I found the lower bike much better for learners to progress with their training, safely. He`s one of those naturally awkward blokes, but like most of my trainees, a day in the bush on a small bike is best, initially. (imho)
I would probably fail your course. I typically kick the trans into neutral when rolling to a stop. If I have to stop in gear I immediately find neutral. If there is no slope, I'll typically have both feet on the ground. If I need to hold the bike in place, I'll do it with a foot on the rear brake.
BUT. I'm paying attention to what's going on around me at all times. I watch for people behind me to make sure they are not going to run over me. I watch on coming and cross traffic and I'm watching the light. When I see that the light is about to cycle, I assume your ready position with bike in gear and foot on rear brake.
Like Andy, I do the feet-up stop at stop signs where there is good visibility and I can tell the traffic is clear well before getting to the stop sign.
I can believe that new riders need something simple and repeatable until they gain more advanced skills.
I pull up with the bike in gear and one foot down, ready to launch if someone does't stop from behind. This is the only reason i do it, due to not being able to trust other people on the road. Once a few people have stopped behind me though, ill click it into neutral and have a rest if the traffic lights are particularly slow to change.
I normally only put one foot down, my left. Modern dirt bikes are so tall that with both feet down I can just barely touch. I slide off to one side of the seat and now I'am able put one foot down solidly. Been riding this way for over thirty years.
Kurt
I'm with Ben on this one and the left foot down technique is what I've learned to use in my 40 years of riding. I learned to ride on dirt bikes and raced motocross (for fun) so two feet down was never an option. Heck, I still stick out my foot into a slow turn sometimes out of habit. That's how I learned. Kudos to Ben and fellow instructors for trying to teach new riders a solid technique. Whether the student accepts that or feels the two foot down technique is more comfortable is of course their decision. I try to continually upgrade my riding because it's challenging and fun. Hopefully those who don't use the left foot down technique will consider it and try it out.
Rob
Left foot down unless I have multiple cars behind me for a long light. Then it's both down with the bike in neutral, unless I'm the first in line.
Acceptable??? :scratch_one-s_head:
When I first picked up my DR650 and went for a ride, one of the first intersections near my place has a steep hill running from my high right to low left....Ya know where I`m going with this don`t ya!...
...As soon as I pulled up and put my trusty left foot down, I knew I was in trouble.
Yep, couldn`t hold her, and down she went scratching her left flank with a hell of a thud!
Hard to lift up from that angle too! Amazing how embarrassment can bring on super human strength! (glad it wasn`t the FJ!) :drinks:
Ever owned an old BMW with the shift on the right and brake on the left ? :lol: I strongly agree with keeping it in gear and ready to "relocate" as required. Sitting still at a stop light just makes us an easier target...
George
My habits go back to when cables were prone to unexpected failure and neutral was not to be found on any motorcycle not in motion.
I always shift into neutral while still moving as I come to a stop.
At red-lights I'm hyper-vigilant. I watch the cross-traffic signal and keep track of the flow of that traffic stream for alerts for pending changes. I try to be in gear and ready when the other guy gets his yellow or there is a change in the flow that alerts me to a likely signal change,
I also keep an eye on what's coming up behind me.
Usually, and always when my hands are off the bars, both my feet are are down. I stand up and stretch and twists around to look behind me.
There is no substitute for situational awareness.
All due respect for your teaching credentials, but IMHO it is generally safer to be in neutral while you are waiting and you are more stable with two feet on the tarmac than one.
Old habits die hard. Neutral is no longer elusive, clutch cables no longer fail; both my FJ and KTM have hydraulic clutches. I feel better being ready to move, which is difficult if you're literally caught flat-footed. Drivers using cell phones, texting and high on drugs are all a danger. We just had a 30+ year LAPD officer killed a few months ago when he was rear-ended at a traffic light, caught flat footed. The driver was high as a kite an either meth or crack. The LAPD Harley was pinned under the offender's SUV.
Feel free to sit at a light as you see fit, the latest safety ideas are way beyond flat footed! Or retro-fit your FJ with drum brakes (as was recently suggested!).
Ed
Quote from: simi_ed on July 02, 2014, 03:28:40 AM
Old habits die hard. Neutral is no longer elusive, clutch cables no longer fail; both my FJ and KTM have hydraulic clutches. I feel better being ready to move, which is difficult if you're literally caught flat-footed. Drivers using cell phones, texting and high on drugs are all a danger. We just had a 30+ year LAPD officer killed a few months ago when he was rear-ended at a traffic light, caught flat footed. The driver was high as a kite an either meth or crack. The LAPD Harley was pinned under the offender's SUV.
(http://tribktla.files.wordpress.com/2014/04/lapdmotorcycleofficerinjuredsunvalley.jpg)
http://ktla.com/2014/04/09/lapd-motorcycle-officer-hit-by-alleged-dui-driver-has-died-police/ (http://ktla.com/2014/04/09/lapd-motorcycle-officer-hit-by-alleged-dui-driver-has-died-police/)
Feel free to sit at a light as you see fit, the latest safety ideas are way beyond flat footed! Or retro-fit your FJ with drum brakes (as was recently suggested!).
Ed
Ouch! A harsh reality, but real none the less... Kind of makes filtering a minimum requirement in my book.
I utterly fail to see how there is any difference between one and two feet on the ground in terms of how fast you get in motion. Barring some sort of a disability, an average human is perfectly capable of raising both feet at once. The US MSF Basic Rider Course teaches putting both feet down, BTW.
I can see there being a difference between being in first gear or neutral.
Personally, I stop in first, but if the light is a long one and my clutch hand is getting tired, I might flip to neutral to give it a rest. When I do this, I usually wind up with right foot down and left on the gearshift ready to kick down to first. Left foot down is what happens when I am stopped on a hill so that I don't roll backwards.
Of course there is no way to say that the cop could have escaped this fate had he been poised for a drag race with death.
What are the physics of the situation?
If he attempts to flee he's got to accelerate from zero to however fast the truck is going plus some within the closure time left after after he sees the truck coming.
Then he has to leap out into cross traffic giving those drivers no chance at all to avoid him.
No - the drag race strategy will be fatal more often than not.
If he saw the truck coming in time he could/should have dumped the bike and got his body out of harm's way.
I'd say the lesson here is that of my "situational awareness" observation, i.e. keep aware of what is behind/around/AND in front of you.
You get old habits by staying alive.
Quote from: Zwartie on July 01, 2014, 01:18:02 PM
I stop my FJ in the ready position every time...
Same for me. I think the routine is the key and puts you into "manage the exceptions" mode when you need it (outside routine). I think "ready" is the correct start for me as well, largely due to the habit forming on dirt bikes long ago. A shorter guy like me also gets a bit too much pressure on the jewels trying to tippy-toe both sides. The other benefit of stopping "ready" is the practice you get sticking the landings... really refines your slow speed handling skills. I'd also say a few of you out there are missing the part about keeping the bike balanced... you should have minimal pressure on your fully down left foot, just keeping the bike at the balance point.
On to my safer riding tip... minimize your use of counter-steering. The practice pits physics against you and your bike, requiring you to push the bike off the arc of the turn to get it leaned over enough to stay on that arc... you kind of grind your way through the turn when you counter steer. Use the technique to flip the FJ back and forth like a supermoto... but turn the bike with your body.
The advice I passed to George at the WCR was to "kiss your mirror" when turning. This was passed to me by a group of racers I rode with when a much younger man. These were knee draggers and I'm not one to be clear, but using the "kiss" as a visual to get you into proper position to turn a bike will make you see why they do it. I'd say at least 1/2 of the riders I see on the streets are on the wrong side of their motorcycle when turning it. You'll notice that is never the case for the racers. There are a bunch of reasons for being inside the bike's arc when turning, but the biggest one is control... you can brake, accelerate, change your line, and generally modulate the situation much better than if you are on or outside the arc, mostly due to CG being more aligned through the bike's center of mass.
I've mentioned Reg Pridmore's CLASS before... one of the things you get to try there is sitting on a "balance bike" where you can see the effect of weight shifting on the angle of the bike... moving CG away from the center of mass for the bike. If you don't have time to take CLASS, try this... coast down a gentle hill in 2nd or 3rd and take your hands off the grips. If you stand lightly on the pegs and move your torso slightly to the right, the bike will turn right. Modulate the turn by how much you are inside the arc and you'll find clamping the tank with your knees helps. If you can visualize using your knees to turn the bike, a little like snow skiing, you'll be on your way to some smoother, faster, and safer riding.
my $0.02 FWIW
Frank
The more I think about it the more I am certain that the "one foot up" idea is just wrong.
Have you EVER seen a drag-racer launch with one foot up? Of course not.
Max control at zero mph is both feet down.
And the idea that you are going to outrun a rear-ender is ludicrous.
What you should be doing, instead of treating that signal like an NHRA Christmas Tree, is keep your eyes open for an escape route and be ready to take it - on foot - dump the bike and save your hide.
Of course that is just one old man's opinion.
When I learnt to ride on the BMF (british motorcycling federation) course, the wisdom was left foot down, hold bike with rear brake, then away
Or if you wanted to pause in neutral for a bit it was: left foot down, hold bike with rear brake. Transfer to right foot down, select neutral, return to left down, hold bike with rear brake. To select gear, it's swap support foot again, prod shifter and away.(what a performance)
So - mostly my habit has become left foot down, hold bike using rear brake staying in first gear, ready for the away.
However, because i'm really right hand dominant, sometimes I find I've stopped with the right foot down, no brake holding the bike.
I rarely do the left foot, right foot, left foot, right foot dance to wait in neutral, but it has been known and still looks rather comical.
Even more rarely would I plant both feet.
Surely as long as you don't drop it, then he stop is a success.
Andy
Quote from: Burns on July 02, 2014, 01:32:21 PM
Have you EVER seen a drag-racer launch with one foot up? Of course not.
Max control at zero mph is both feet down.
And the idea that you are going to outrun a rear-ender is ludicrous.
I've actually tried launching at the track with one foot up. Doesn't work very well. You want to be dead vertical so that you go perfectly straight, if the bike is going side to side at any point, you're taking a longer distance between the clocks than you should be. That said, I was launching with my left foot up (makes it easier to hit the 1-2 shift... launching at 10k and shifting at 12k doesn't give you much time to get positioned). But then, I also drag my toes until the clutch is totally out when I'm on the track, and I don't do that much on the street.
It's very easy to outrun a rearending. Like everything else drag racing, it's all about reaction time. If you see the car coming and their bumper never lowers, they aren't on the brakes. Into gear, revs come up, and clutch gets let out until you know where the zone is. Look left and right, figure the safest way to get out, and off you go. I've done this on two occasions, and am glad I did. Sure, you may get tboned... but you were definitely going to get rearended. I'll trade my definite accident for a maybe accident any time. But you'd never ever get your reaction time on if you weren't doing the most important thing. You also need to remember that you don't have to haul ass in a straight line to avoid it. Getting into the turn lane or just on the dotted line may be enough.
Paying attention.
my pops taught me that, when braking to a stop, you only drop one foot. 3point stance.
he said it's poor form to drop both.
but he rides choppers and I ride street bikes and depending on the duration of the light, hill gradient, and mood either of us may drop both feet while idling.
point being you cant use the foot brake properly if you don't have an available foot to use the brake.
I really don't see why this needs a hard and fast rule about it. If the circumstances warrant the use of rear brake (like on a hill) - use one foot. If they don't - who cares?
Seriously, does anyone have problems picking up two feet versus picking up one?
First of all, thanks to everyone for the responses. I encourage constructive feedback and discussion. That being said, I'm not a big fan of long-winded responses written in a condescending tone explaining on one hand how this topic has little-to-no bearing on motorcycle safety and then going into great lengths to counter each point. Again, I'm only pointing to one response in particular which oddly enough was not even a response to this thread, but the introduction.
Regarding The Ready Position, it absolutely has bearing on riding safely. Yes, it can be argued that it may not be as critical as some other points but it is the starting (and stopping) point. As with anything that requires some level of skill, starting off on the wrong foot (pun intended) often leads to continuing that activity incorrectly.
Here's a specific example: A few weeks ago we were running an M2Exit course. This is the course for those riders that are upgrading from an M2 to full M licence and they have anywhere from 18 months to 5 years riding experience. One of our students with a few years' experience was riding a BMW GS1200 – one of those Long Way Round bikes. I would put him at about 5' 9" and as we ran our initial exercises he was doing the tippy-toe dance every time the bike came to a stop. We explained to him that the bike would be much more stable if he practiced stopping with is left foot down and used both brakes when coming to a stop. His first response was that the bike has linked brakes so he only needs to use the right hand lever for braking, even at slow speeds. That of course, is another topic unto itself. I hopped on his bike (with his permission) and as I am about the same height, demonstrated how stopping in The Ready Position is a better method for stopping and keeping the bike stable. After 3-4 hours of practice runs and a successful evaluation we could see that he made a noticeable improvement in his stability on the bike, specifically when stopped. He made a point of thanking us for the tip and said that his experienced riding buddy who he goes riding with all the time never once mentioned it to him.
One of the comments on this forum regarding this method is that the MSF teaches the method of putting both feet down at a stop. Finding that hard to believe as the CSC and MSF curriculum are quite similar, I thought I would ask around. I am a member of a Motorcycle Instructor group on LinkedIn which includes members from Canada, the US and other countries. The overwhelming response was that the Ready Position (left foot down, only) is taught by the MSF as well. It is also taught as the correct method for police, including the RCMP.
There was another comment regarding the way one would sit on a motorcycle when getting ready to launch at a drag strip. Sure, they have two feet down but then they also typically have an air shifter, 24" wide rear tire and a wheelie bar. I am not sure how that has any bearing on street riding. We've actually had a number of motorcycle drag racers come to take our Basic course (you don't need a motorcycle licence to race a motorcycle) and have had comments from our instructors how comical it is to watch someone who can run an 8-second quarter mile struggle with controlling the clutch on a 125cc bike on a parking lot. As someone else in this forum put so aptly, the track does not equal the street.
Devin Somers, one of my colleagues at Fanshawe put it this way (very concisely, I might add):
Ready position--left foot down, right foot on rear brake:
Brakes on to keep brake light on (slightly more visible).
Keeps bike from rolling.
Won't stop bike too much if "hit" from behind by a car, but will help if "tapped" from behind.
The point of having the rear brake on, vs. the front brake, is the right hand is ready to use throttle. Especially help if bike is on a hill, or grade.
One last thing--only bringing one foot to peg, instead of both, means less "balance" input to motorcycle--more stable.
Does this mean that you need to put your left foot down at every single stop, every single time? Of course not. I apologize if I misled anyone in that regard. Riding a motorcycle is a situational activity and what you need to do is always based on what the situation demands. We tell our students in the M2Exit program that if at any time an instruction that we give turns out at the last minute to be unsafe, do not follow the instruction but do what is safe. It's good advice for anyone riding a motorcycle at any time – always do what is safe. If you come to a stop and there's a huge pot hole where your left foot would go down, please put your right foot down. Or if the road is wet and it feels like your riding on ball bearings and you would feel more confident with both feet down, please put both feet down. That being said, be sure to use both brakes when coming to that final stop. Using the front brake only when the road surface is less than ideal (wet, slippery, uneven...) will eventually end up with you and your bike laying on the asphalt. At that point it doesn't matter which foot is on the ground.
Zwartie
Quote from: Zwartie on July 06, 2014, 12:40:48 PM
...then going into great lengths to counter each point.
... and with flawed or no data to support the arguments. This stuff is easily filtered out however, so don't let it kill the discussion.
Please continue the thread (everyone included, don't mind the attacks) since I'm sure there is quite a bit of new ground to be covered... giantkiller has just shared the proper way to ram a deer for example (although Ramos has a variation that was also effective).
I'll share another simple one... I keep one finger on the front brake lever at all times. I think of the throttle and front brake as a combination control used to adjust speed and attitude of the bike... roll off throttle, squeeze on brake, ease off brake, roll on throttle, etc. It is a variation of left foot braking used in cars to make the transitions smoother between throttle and brake when "at speed".
This one does require one finger brakes, although you can do it with two fingers... cramps my hand up pretty bad to have index and middle on the lever while holding throttle with ring and pinkie. Your results may vary.
Frank
Quote from: Zwartie on July 06, 2014, 12:40:48 PMThere was another comment regarding the way one would sit on a motorcycle when getting ready to launch at a drag strip. Sure, they have two feet down but then they also typically have an air shifter, 24" wide rear tire and a wheelie bar. I am not sure how that has any bearing on street riding. We've actually had a number of motorcycle drag racers come to take our Basic course (you don't need a motorcycle licence to race a motorcycle) and have had comments from our instructors how comical it is to watch someone who can run an 8-second quarter mile struggle with controlling the clutch on a 125cc bike on a parking lot. As someone else in this forum put so aptly, the track does not equal the street.
No, absolutely the track <> street. The track is where clutch control is king, though. The dragbike you are envisoning doesn't have a clutch in the standard sense, either.
But are we talking about usable street skills, or racing skills, or parking lot feet-up drills on a 125? I don't lose points for simply stopping when I'm in a parking lot, and putting a foot down, so why practice it? I don't take off from every stop like I'm on a dragstrip, so why practice clutch control? I don't slide around with the tire spinning on the street, so why go dirt riding? I don't get into emergency braking situations, so why practice braking on a deserted road?
Hell, I don't fall off every time I ride, but I wear my gear anyhow, y`know?
What the MSF (and other courses, I'd imagine) teach are undoubtedly a great starting point for a new rider. Starting point <> ending point. We're all working for getting even better, every time we ride... that's why we practice things! :yahoo:
Greetings everyone,
Another interesting thread - rather than adding additional points to ponder, I would like to say that Frank's (Flynt) comments are correct. Having had the opportunity to ride with him on numerous occasions, he is among the smoothest and SAFEST riders I have encountered.
Along with the gentlemen from OZ and the Englishman, a fellow from Oakdale and some of those who gather at the ECFR, all share the same common denominator: it is smooth and crisp riding. Not all out speed but an enjoyable fast pace with a built in margin of error for any unforeseen [yet not unexpected] circumstance that may arise.
Re: stopping with the front brake - I have seen several riders at near stopping speed & to keep balance, turn the front wheel ''just a little'' with the front brake on and oops, over they go...
Ride safe,
Midget.
Quote from: Zwartie on July 06, 2014, 12:40:48 PM
One of the comments on this forum regarding this method is that the MSF teaches the method of putting both feet down at a stop. Finding that hard to believe as the CSC and MSF curriculum are quite similar, I thought I would ask around. I am a member of a Motorcycle Instructor group on LinkedIn which includes members from Canada, the US and other countries. The overwhelming response was that the Ready Position (left foot down, only) is taught by the MSF as well. It is also taught as the correct method for police, including the RCMP.
When I took the MSF class a few years ago the question came up, and the instructor specifically stated to use both feet. Perhaps it was his personal position rather than official MSF one.
Quote from: Zwartie on July 06, 2014, 12:40:48 PM
Brakes on to keep brake light on (slightly more visible).
Keeps bike from rolling.
Won't stop bike too much if "hit" from behind by a car, but will help if "tapped" from behind.
The point of having the rear brake on, vs. the front brake, is the right hand is ready to use throttle. Especially help if bike is on a hill, or grade.
One last thing--only bringing one foot to peg, instead of both, means less "balance" input to motorcycle--more stable.
I'm sorta dubious about the brake light, oblivious driver is oblivious. Certainly won't hurt, though. Then, I was with you until the last thing.
What is balance input? And how is picking up both feet less balanced than picking up one? I seriously can't make sense of this.
I remember one of our Aussie members who is a motorcycle cop, say they are trained to put their right foot down when stopping. There must be a reason why their trained that way, wether it harkers back to the days when lopsided british bikes ruled or not, I don't know, but honestly, left foot, right foot, both feet, does it really matter, I can use either way, but feel more comfortable using my left.
Quote from: JPaganel on July 06, 2014, 07:35:45 PM
When I took the MSF class a few years ago the question came up, and the instructor specifically stated to use both feet. Perhaps it was his personal position rather than official MSF one.
Maybe, but I also took one a few years ago, and they also had us using both feet, in gear.
Quote from: Mike Ramos on July 06, 2014, 05:39:58 PM
Re: stopping with the front brake...
... my bad. Use the back brake folks! I burn through 2 sets of organic rears for each set of HH fronts. I use the organics to improve the feel through my boot, the HH pads were hard to modulate on the rear for me.
Frank
Quote from: Bones on July 06, 2014, 08:32:47 PM
I remember one of our Aussie members who is a motorcycle cop, say they are trained to put their right foot down when stopping. There must be a reason why their trained that way, wether it harkers back to the days when lopsided british bikes ruled or not, I don't know, but honestly, left foot, right foot, both feet, does it really matter, I can use either way, but feel more comfortable using my left.
Most likely me, cop since 1986, bike cop since 1991, bike rider since 1971. Can't remember what foot down I did before cop bike course but it's been right foot down since 1991.
G'day Stainesy, Yeah mate it was you I was referring to. Do the trainers give any particular reason why the right foot is used instead of the left.
Mmmmmmmm, I would hazard a guess and say that you leave your left foot on the pegs ready to snick into 1st for a quick take off if needed. Front brake used only, right foot on the ground, this is how I do it most of the time.
Stainesy, where have you been !! :bye:
Quote from: Zwartie on July 06, 2014, 12:40:48 PM
That being said, I'm not a big fan of long-winded responses written in a condescending tone explaining on one hand how this topic has little-to-no bearing on motorcycle safety and then going into great lengths to counter each point. Again, I'm only pointing to one response in particular which oddly enough was not even a response to this thread, but the introduction.
Zwartie, take no notice of him, this is a great idea for a thread and one from which I'm sure we can all benefit.
As Frank said...... "
and with flawed or no data to support the arguments. This stuff is easily filtered out however, so don't let it kill the discussion.
Please continue the thread (everyone included, don't mind the attacks)"I agree, don't be put off. there's a lot of interesting ground to cover.
Noel
To start with I am proponent of left foot down. I think that in the past one of the reasons for left foot down was the kick starer. Most kick starters are on the right side, so it just made sense to have put your left foot down first. To be ready to start the bike.
Yesterday I went for a group ride and one of the newer riders asked if we would not stop on slopes. Because they had a hard time stopping and starting on hills. Being the first time meeting this this person and the group, I did not offer any advise. Somethings were said that told me it may have been received. I will in the future after getting to know them better.
Kurt
Quote from: yamaha fj rider on July 07, 2014, 08:10:46 AM
Yesterday I went for a group ride and one of the newer riders asked if we would not stop on slopes. Because they had a hard time stopping and starting on hills. Being the first time meeting this this person and the group, I did not offer any advise. Somethings were said that told me it may have been received. I will in the future after getting to know them better.
Kurt
Kurt,
Excellent point and one that I completely forgot about. Until a few years ago we had access to a bit of a hill between parking lots at the College and would use it for a "starting on a hill" exercise. It was a great way for new riders to practice clutch control and coordinate it with releasing the rear brake (curling up the toes, as we would describe it) while feeding in some more throttle and releasing the clutch (or wringing out the towel), all while ensuring that the bike doesn't roll back. It proved to be a great exercise, especially for those who needed some extra clutch work. I suppose you could try it with the right foot down or both feet down and use the front brake, but why?
Zwartie
Being 5'8" having both feet flat is generally not a choice for me. I typically stop with my left foot down, stay in gear with the rear brake if on a grade. That way I have one foot flat and firmly on the ground which is very stable (for me). If it's going to be a long lite I'll probably put it in neutral to give my left hand a break. Because of my "vertical stature" the crown in the road can have me put my right foot down as I like to have the flattest foot down for the best stability. Sometimes a dip in the pavement sets the bike just a bit lower and I can get both feet down. I'm with those that say experience is the best teacher and based on the situation and your experience you choose the best option. Debating left vs both vs right is a good exercise but in the end I think it's a bit of splitting hairs. Observing your surroundings, having an out and being ready to act I think is solid advice.
Each time someone issues forth an idea, others offer up contrary views. Or variations of the view presented. I much enjoy reading all the opinions and not one is "wrong" and another right. Each situation and rider calls for a different way to stop. Which foot to plant. How to start etc.
I never put my bike in neutral until the traffic behind me is stopped. I actually try putting only one foot down, usually the left, but sometimes can't stop without putting both down. Who cares? After 22 years of riding I am still learning and am still getting better. If nothing else Zwartie has started me to think about the process, one which has been second nature since the first time I rode a bike. The only reason I am thinking about it is this discussion and I will learn something. Not sure what yet... but I will. Thanks.
I remember bikes with kick starters, my first bike was a Royal Enfield 250, not long after I first got it I pulled up at a T junction and went to put my right foot down except some how the kick start had found its way up the inside of the leg of my jeans and my leg was pinned to the bike, I ended up on my side both feet still on the pegs and both hands still on the bars it would have made a classic video, and another reason for left foot down I guess.
John.
Went for a ride yesterday and it was that windy that a couple of times while stopped the wind felt almost strong enough to blow me over. I put both feet down to stabilize it a bit more.
I still want to know what "balance input" is and how one foot is more balanced than two.
always 2 feet down, in gear, front brake engaged (except on grade, then left foot down, right foot on brake)
Not to pic, a nit, but . . .
This comment caught my eye:
"having the rear brake on, vs. the front brake"
said in the context of a discussion re: motorcycle safety at intersections waiting for traffic signals -generally; and keeping the brake light illuminated- specifically.
That sounds rather odd.
I remember some old (real old) street bikes that did not have brake light switches on their front brakes, but I doubt that many here ride - or indeed, have ever ridden one.
Perhaps the phrase just falls oddly on my ear.
I'll stop in first, and wait until a car or two pulls up behind me and stops, before putting her in neutral, and placing two feet on the ground as per the Motorcycle Safety Foundation's (MSF) class. If the cars approaching from the rear seem to be approaching too fast, I modulate the brake thus flashing the brake light so as to call attention to the fact that I'm stopped. I watch the light for the cross traffic and when it turns yellow, I place her in first, anticipating my green light. Observing the cross traffic has stopped, I then come off the line very quickly. The MSF course covered the danger from the rear problem, as far as I'm concerned it's the most important consideration, when stopping at an intersection, and like I was taught in high school drivers ed class, always maintain "The Big Picture;" that's front, rear, gauge's and periphery, which gives way to the darting eye syndrome. ;)
I cannot help but notice that the strongest voices on this Better Technique thread belong to the riders who are , shall we say the journeymen among us. You've all been doing things your own way for any number of decades. It's true that you didn't arrive at your riding habits by accident. You all have learned to do things in a way that you are comfortable with,
methods proven to be the right way.
I don't know how many of you are tradesmen, but I can tell you from personal experience, many times over ,that very seldom will two (let's say) mechanics ('cause that's what I am)
agree on the way to approach a problem go about the repair job. Both of the differing prognosis
(if the man knows his stuff) will probably end up with a proper repair job. So,is either one wrong, if they wind up with a car that runs ?
In spite of what the academics would like us to believe, neither riding your bike ,nor motor mechanics are exact sciences.
The journeymen shouldn't waste time arguing about how the apprentice should hold his
hammer when he needs to know what a lean condition smells like.
Quote from: Earl Svorks on July 28, 2014, 07:39:07 PM
I cannot help but notice that the strongest voices on this Better Technique thread belong to the riders who are , shall we say the journeymen among us. You've all been doing things your own way for any number of decades. It's true that you didn't arrive at your riding habits by accident. You all have learned to do things in a way that you are comfortable with,
methods proven to be the right way.
I have been riding so long I don't consciously think about most of what I do on a bike and when I started there were no instructions or procedures to commit to memory. Having advocated both feet down when this was recently discussed I suddenly became aware at the weekend that I was stopped with one foot down, my right foot. I always hold the bike with the front brake if required anyway. Over the course of the day I realised a few other things. I do this because I frequently use the stop to do things, adjust a mirror, flip my visor up, scratch something, put my glasses away etc which requires putting it in neutral momentarily. What I also noticed was I only do it in the country and ALWAYS put both feet down in traffic.
As an exercise, I pulled up on a white line in a quiet street and put one foot down, I then moved off and drifted about a metre to the side on which I had my foot down before regaining the white line. I repeated this with the bike uncomfortably close to the balance point (much more vertical than you would normally want to be with only one foot down) and still drifted a couple of feet to the right. You CANNOT take off in a straight line from one foot down.
99.9% of the time I am pulled up in traffic I am between two lanes of cars, I simply do not have the room to drift that far off my line without hitting or getting dangerously close to the car beside me.
Another consideration is that here, we drive on the left of the road. If you were to pull off to the side of any road here, particularly country or steeply cambered roads, you left foot would be the highest off the ground and in many cases unable to even reach it and the most likely to find unstable ground. Also, when pulling back onto the road from grass or gravel of whatever from the LHS, it is you right foot you want dragging until both wheels are back on a solid surface and no longer likely to slip.
In countries where you drive on the RHS of the road much of this would make sense to put your left foot down. In other words, you put the foot down that gives you the most stability, be it right, left or both or if it's only a technical stop and you feel like being a smartarse, none! What ever the circumstances dictate.
I agree with Earls sentiments and while the physics of motorbike handling and braking are universally agreed on I don't think the same can be said for basic procedures such as stopping, starting, mounting, dismounting etc or that it really matters other than perhaps to people who are new to bikes and do need a starting point on the very basics.
The one thing I don't understand that Zwartie said was why the emphasis on holding the bike with the back brake instead of the front. I, and I imagine most others, have no trouble operating the front brake and throttle independent of each other with great finesse with the one hand. I wonder if this is a hangover from drum brakes that required a 4 finger pull of sufficient force to hold the bike (particularly uphill) that prevented subtle use of the throttle as well. One of the reasons given was to activate the brake light. Front brakes have done this since the introduction of discs. I also wonder if the Police are taught this because of the array of gadgets on their dashboard that need a free hand to operate at a moments notice, Stainsy?
Noel
As for the front brake vs rear brake when stopped ,it seems to me that if you were to be hit from behind (at such a speed that you might survive the initial impact) the motorcycle would be more likely to just move forward, front wheel rolling therefore steerable, regardless of the rear brake. Your foot would have moved away from the brake pedal any way.
Conversely, if the front brake was being held on in similar circumstances, it seems to me that the bike would be on it's side immediately.
"if you were to be hit from behind (at such a speed that you might survive the initial impact) it would not make a tinker's dam bit of difference which (if any) brake was engaged. The mass of the auto/truck would render that decision moot.
Quote from: ribbert on July 29, 2014, 09:59:17 AM
You CANNOT take off in a straight line from one foot down.
This, in a nutshell, is what drives me crazy with your comments sometimes Noel. You could say "I" CANNOT... since you have data to back that statement. Saying "You" expands that to all of us and you have no data to assert that. Just because, I stopped on the lines (between cars, I always split if there's space) every chance I had on the way home tonight. I pulled away (from my usual left foot down, right foot on rear brake "ready" position) and stayed on the line every time there was a line and, as usual, had no trouble keeping clear of the cars on either side.
I can't balance my motorcycle on the front wheel while sitting on the handlebars, but maybe you can... I wouldn't know unless we had some data to prove the statement that "we" can't do it, so I would never assert that "you" CANNOT do it. I know it can be done since Monkey stops that way routinely.... :sarcastic:
Frank
Quote from: Flynt on July 29, 2014, 09:18:27 PM
I know it can be done since Monkey stops that way routinely.... :sarcastic:
Frank
Frank, why did you have to drag me into this? That used to be confidential information.... "Loose lips sink ships" :ireful:
:blum1:
Always wondered what it would be like to actually put both feet down...and reach the ground.
Quote from: Mike 86 in San Dimas on July 29, 2014, 10:33:55 PM
Always wondered what it would be like to actually put both feet down...and reach the ground.
I know, hard to find platform motorcycle boots, maybe Kiss has some left over stock... This might work for you... Boots (https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSCZeyw1zJ0e2LXvJjHHX1oF_z9TBiWgMJJ-j8rbN7gqZRMAHoh7Q)
I think that might be the Alpine Star logo on the boots..... Shifting gears will be a real bitch though...
Quote from: Flynt on July 29, 2014, 09:18:27 PM
Quote from: ribbert on July 29, 2014, 09:59:17 AM
Just because, I stopped on the lines (between cars, I always split if there's space) every chance I had on the way home tonight. I pulled away (from my usual left foot down, right foot on rear brake "ready" position) and stayed on the line every time there was a line ............. I know it can be done since Monkey stops that way routinely.... :sarcastic:
Frank
Yes, of course you can, Monkey can, everybody can, even I can. Taking off in a dead straight line from one foot down is not difficult and there are occasions when I do just that but
in my opinion it compromises the jump I like to get on the cars when the lights change.
The reasons I believe this is the case are not worth discussing as it will only provide more fuel for those wishing to pick rather than lead into a sensible discussion. Had I known someone was waiting to pounce I would have chosen my words more carefully and offered a more detailed explanation of what I was referring to.
The incomplete scenario I described, misguided belief that we are all bound by the Laws of Physics and consequently my inclusion of others in my assertions, lack of data, and it would appear, my posts in general, has upset Frank.
My apologies Frank for doing your head in with my posts but I'm flattered after all these years you have commented on one of them, directly.
I admit when I'm out of my league and as the finer points of riding apparently elude me, I will defer to the more experienced riders on the forum in this matter.
Noel
Noel,
Take a deep breath and unbunch those panties.
I am sure there are many on here who apreciate your input, Hell it made me think how I handle stops (feet, break...) Still don't really know but plan to get in some riding this weekend and will take notes. Seriously, I can't remember which foot I put down or which brake I use to hold myself in place, although I probably put both down most of the time simply to stretch out my legs a bit.
Your information is good, even if only to start a discussion. The only real issue I see is your delivery. Whether you intend to or not you come off as a self proclaimed expert, and are not doing yourself any favors by using arguements like "It's Physics" . You may be right but absolutismis the hallmark of internet trolls and online forum educated 'experts'. I doubt you are either of these but you need to remember that the majority of folks who read this have never met you and thier experiences may be vastly different than yours.
You sound like you are belittling the experience of others when I dount this is the case. I suggest proofreading your posts of this type after a few minutes of doing somthing else. I do this and am often surprised at how much of a condesending prick I come off as.
I intentionally did not filter this post.
If you would read some of my posts from when I was more active you would probably see me as a loose cannon on the bike, and that is partially true. However I have a pretty extensive background in the sport. Aside from the fact that I started riding in 1975, or my 25 years of racing in many disciplines, I have done the following:
- 1994-2000 coached at an advanced offroad riding/racing school
1999-2004 Co Owned and coached a youth motocross school working with kids ranging from 4-16 years old, many of whom won multiple regional and national titles
2004- 2011 Coached with several track day groups, specializing in teaching novice riders to ride well on the track and to understand proper bike set up. I also worked with intermediate riders to help improve thier track skills and help them to ride faster with less affort in order to reach thier goals
Since 2011 I have been very busy with my career and simply do not have the time to spend trackside. I still coach occasionally and in fact have a standing offer to coach at Mid Ohio.
My point is this, You never know who is on the other side of the monitor.
Quote from: the fan on July 30, 2014, 11:05:00 AM
My point is this, You never know who is on the other side of the monitor.
+1 and thanks... My particular affliction is being a born engineer with degrees and a lifetime of relying on the data (it's a weakness sometimes). I get axle wrapped by arguments based on faux data and, seriously, feel that my head will pop if I don't vent a bit. I've actually used the phrase "In God we trust, all others bring data..." (speaking of being a condescending prick).
Noel - no offense intended and I wasn't waiting to pounce. Please continue to pressurize my head and don't recoil if I vent occasionally.
Frank
Quote from: Mike 86 in San Dimas on July 29, 2014, 10:33:55 PM
Always wondered what it would be like to actually put both feet down...and reach the ground.
http://youtu.be/kRFyw57o_Ic (http://youtu.be/kRFyw57o_Ic)