Alright I got my carb cleaned and my overflow hoses aren't leaking.
but I've changed my oil twice in two days and I am smelling gasoline in the oil.
Two questions:
1) what does this do to my motor/scooter?
2) what is the cause(s)?
1. It causes poor lubrication, making the oil too thin to be effective, substantially increasing wear on the engine. You do not want to run the engine until you have this resolved.
2. Overflowing carbs. Someone else should chime in, because as far as I know, if you're getting oil in the oil pan, it's because your carbs are overflowing, and so one would expect your overflow hoses to be dripping. It is likely not because something isn't clean, but because your needle seats are worn. Need some new parts in there.
What year bike do you have? Petcock is another culprit on 87 and earlier bikes, fuel pump on 88 and later bikes--both of those, respectively, should be stopping the fuel flow from overflowing in the carbs. (To some degree, that might not be true in a fuel pump model, I think, but I'm not sure--again, someone else should chime in.)
it's not the carbs.
I just had the carbs cleaned and installed new rings and needles.
I did a few basic searches and it's looking like a bottom-rebuild; piston rings.
is it a bottom-rebuild?
be blunt, I hate unnecessary nuance.
Your petcock is not shutting off the flow and the floats not stopping the flow. Fuel is flowing into the intake. Past the rings and into thecrank case. At least that is what happened to my 86. Twice filled the crank. Once before Iinstalled the manual petcock. And once when Iforgot to turn it off. Had just rebuilt the carbs with Randy's carb kits. Worth checking.
but I don't have a petcock.... I have a square nut connected to the gastank-line...
ugh I wish I was better at this. you guys rock, thanks for the replies i'll listen to everything you have to say.
it doesnt' leak from the overflow hoses when running or parked, only a few drops if it idles dead.
Is there a fuel pump on your bike?
The solenoid you kept showing in your pictures was carb vent solenoid?
Fuel getting into your engine is coming through the carbs.
Randy - RPM
Yeah, the *only* place gasoline can come from is your carbs. Don't panic though.
I bought a 1982 Yamaha Seca 550 brand NEW in 1986 as a leftover model. They just assembled it out of the crate and I picked it up with 2 miles on the odometer. Because the bike had been sitting for four years, a fine surface rust had built up in the tank and when that rust "grit" flowed into the carbs, it prevented the needles and seats from seating. Being a gravity-feed bike, the fuel kept trickling past the seats and into the combustion chamber. From there...over the course of a couple of days, the gas worked its way around the piston rings and filled up the crankcase.
The solution was to drain all that out of the engine and clean out the gas tank...OH and I had to get in the habit of manually switching OFF the petcock when I parked the bike. Which brings me to your fuel-pump model FJ. You don't fiddle with the petcock at all on the later FJs. The fuel pump...when no power is applied...should stop the gravitational flow of gasoline for you. There's your first thing to check. Pull the fuel line from the carbs and drop it into a bucket (or whatever else you have handy)...then let it sit overnight. In the morning if the bucket has fuel in it, your fuel pump isn't doing its job.
You should view the needles and seats in the carbs as a secondary mechanism to stop the gravitational flow of fuel. Sometimes they get stuck open...Sometimes there's a little grit from a rusty fuel tank preventing them from sealing properly.
I've been following the trials with your FJ and it seems like you're getting her in good shape...Just keep working on the little issues...keep asking what seem like stupid questions, keep up the great attitude and we'll have it sorted in no time. :good2:
Cap'n Ron. . .
It helps us when you tell us, or remind us, of what model FJ you have....there are differences between them.
Go to your profile page and put the info in your signature line.
Quote from: Pat Conlon on May 13, 2014, 01:35:46 AM
It helps us when you tell us, or remind us, of what model FJ you have....there are differences between them.
Go to your profile page and put the info in your signature line.
I'm with you Pat...I had to go back through his older posts and figure out that it's a '92...THEN, I could take a stab at what the issue might be. I also recalled that he's in San Diego...I would think the WCR would put him on the fast-track to getting things resolved!
"The Leopard"...if that IS your real name... Care to join us all up in Willits in two weeks? :good2:
Cap'n Ron. . .
Do you just smell gas? Or is fuel really overflowing into your crankcase?
You may smell gas fumes because of the vent hose between the case and the airfilter box. So don't panic until you verify that gas is actually getting into the oil.
Quote from: theLeopard on May 12, 2014, 11:28:03 PM
but I've changed my oil twice in two days and I am smelling gasoline in the oil.
Alright, lots to tackle here in this post so I'll do my best to keep everyone up to speed.
Currently I'm not leaking anywhere. No fuel overflows or leaks, oil seems alright. Probably need to drain the system and replace the filter so I can get a clean whiff on the tank but oil in my gas isn't my immediate problem.
I couldn't service the pilot jets when I serviced the carb, so that's still on the list.
Carbs are clean.
Hoses properly connected.
No noticeable leaks.
Need to recheck the needle-height (there are instructions in my book and here).
Manifolds are old and need replacement but, currently, don't appear to be perforated (just cracking).
Battery is new, and charges.
Fuel pump seems to work, charges when I start the bike and no leaks as previously mentioned.
Throttle works, engine sounds terrible; probably needs to be torn apart soon. Revs good but doesn't sound anything like it did when I purchased it (last week :dash2: )
Various hoses need replacement (aged and the tank-solenoid has a small leak in the bridge hose between the solenoid and manual-petcock).
Need to inspect, and possibly service, the spark plugs.
My immediate problem is the bike isn't idling properly.
I pull the choke, it will warm up for a few minutes then the RPM's waver between 2500-3000 and eventually the bike dies. Like it's getting an inconsistent fuel supply.
Smell of gas is noticeable while it idles which makes me think it's running rich, but i'm a novice so maybe that's normal.
I even got a single backfire when I restarted the motor today, shut it off when it died the 2nd time.
Not really sure where to start myself, so many things need replacement.
Randy,
My manual showed up today. The cylinder in question is part to the emissions system and is found in the supplementary service manual FJ1200ADC (pg 101 - H).
It's part of the emissions system but i'm not sure what it does. that niplle you see on the backside (nearest the electrical box) is hoseless and goes to atmosphere. Doesn't leak. I doublechecked the hoses as best I could from the book and they seem to all be properly connected, same as your analysis from the photos.
Heres the image from the book:
(http://i1033.photobucket.com/albums/a417/sunkenstrings/book.jpg)
Pat,
Noted, and added. :drinks:
Hooligan,
I'm fairly certain it's in the oil. I drained the pan last night and dipped my fingers in it, let my roommate give it a whiff. He smelled gas too, just on my fingers, so I'm pretty sure there's gasoline in the pan.
Ron,
I'm concerned the piston-rings are shot and i'm getting blowback, but rebuilding the engine is the last thing i'll attempt. Carbs first.
Thanks for the vote of encouragement, I'm steady but the previous owner didn't take care of this bike at all and I'm backed up at least two-years-worth of service. Daunting.
I would love to join the club up there but my bike isn't running and i'm having trouble finding another job (2months out) so repairs will be slow-going :ireful:
Quote from: theLeopard on May 14, 2014, 09:00:31 PM
I couldn't service the pilot jets when I serviced the carb, so that's still on the list.
My immediate problem is the bike isn't idling properly.
I pull the choke, it will warm up for a few minutes then the RPM's waver between 2500-3000 and eventually the bike dies. Like it's getting an inconsistent fuel supply.
These issues are all related to carbs that aren't clean. Specifically the idle circuit. Do it right or do it again, and again, and again...
Quote from: theLeopard on May 14, 2014, 09:00:31 PM
I couldn't service the pilot jets when I serviced the carb, so that's still on the list.
Carbs are clean.
No, they aren't.
That's like saying I'm not broke, I just don't have any money.
Gas in your oil will destroy the lubrication properties of the oil. This is going to kill the head, tear chunks out of the cams, and destroy your ring seal. Fix it, or you'll be needing a full rebuild. Yes, it's your primary problem. Hopefully you've not damaged anything yet. And having the carbs actually clean, along with a tank that delivers clean fuel to the carbs, will fix the majority of your problems as you see them.
Step one is to pull the carbs off.
Step two, while they're off, is to do a compression check. Leakdown would be good as well.
Step three is to clean the carbs completely and properly. Write down the jet sizes that you find in them, as you'll be ahead when you need to make changes (for example, going to a different pilot to improve the idle and cruise qualities).
Step four is to drain the fuel tank into the lawnmower, watching carefully for nasties in the fuel.
Step five is to look for rust in the tank--it'll either clog the screens in the carbs (if you have them, and you'll know, because you've had the carbs apart completely), or it can prevent the float needles from seating.
Step six is an oil and filter change.
Step seven is to reassemble things, and add gas that is no more than a day out of the pumps at a reputable gas station.
Step eight is to synch the carbs.
As you do these things, report back if you run into trouble. All of these things are pretty well covered in any of a multitude of posts here.
The FJ does not suffer fools in a couple places. One of them is the pilot circuit. Another is cheap chains.
Quote from: andyb on May 15, 2014, 01:58:56 AM
The FJ does not suffer fools in a couple places. One of them is the pilot circuit. Another is cheap chains.
Well said, Andy!
Quote from: simi_ed on May 15, 2014, 02:32:11 AM
Quote from: andyb on May 15, 2014, 01:58:56 AM
The FJ does not suffer fools in a couple places. One of them is the pilot circuit. Another is cheap chains.
Well said, Andy!
Yep...brilliant! :good2:
Cap'n Ron. . .
Quote from: andyb on May 15, 2014, 01:58:56 AMStep two, while they're off, is to do a compression check. Leakdown would be good as well.
Can you give me a bit more information on this? What kind of compression? Carburetor? Engine? Spark? And what's a leakdown?
I can manage the rest of your list with the purchase of a few tools.
edit*
NOTE: Valve clearance must be set properly before synchronizing the carburetors.
K so this guy messed up my bike or what? Cause it idled perfectly before I took it there and he's a machinist that specializes in engine rebuilds.
Here's a bit-o-readin' on the subject:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compression_test (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compression_test)
Pretty standard stuff in the world of engines.
Steve
Quote from: theLeopard on May 15, 2014, 08:28:01 PM
Quote from: andyb on May 15, 2014, 01:58:56 AMStep two, while they're off, is to do a compression check. Leakdown would be good as well.
Can you give me a bit more information on this? What kind of compression? Carburetor? Engine? Spark? And what's a leakdown?
Quote from: theLeopard on May 15, 2014, 08:28:01 PM
NOTE: Valve clearance must be set properly before synchronizing the carburetors.
K so this guy messed up my bike or what? Cause it idled perfectly before I took it there and he's a machinist that specializes in engine rebuilds.
The compression check will tell you if the valves are too tight, to a degree. That's why it's before the synch in the list. Only one thing in the engine compresses air, and that's the combustion chamber (the interface between piston/rings, head, and valves), so it's a good way to get an overall health indicator. The leakdown is a way to measure the condition of the valve seal and piston ring-to-cylinder wall seal. If both of those tests return good numbers, your list of problems gets a lot shorter.
If it sat for as little as a week after he worked on it, or if there's rust in the tank, the symptoms you describe could happen.
What I'm suggesting is a bit of overkill, but gives you a pretty clean bill of health on the motor (excluding main/rod bearing wear, but there's no good way to measure that without a total stripdown, so we'll skip it for the time being).
ok here's my list of tasks:
compression check
leakdown test
clean pilot jets & needles
inspect gastank
synch carbs
and here's my list of tools:
petroleum carb cleaner
compressed air
oil filter
spark plugs
micrometer
1mm-10mm sockets (already have a 17mm)
and here's a list of tools I know I need but don't know what to buy:
fuel level gauge
compression gauge
leakdown gauge
tool to put the pistons top dead center
Quote from: andyb on May 16, 2014, 08:22:06 AMThe leakdown is a way to measure the condition of the valve seal and piston ring-to-cylinder wall seal. If both [the compression and leakdown] tests return good numbers, your list of problems gets a lot shorter.
If it sat for as little as a week after he worked on it, or if there's rust in the tank, the symptoms you describe could happen.
gives you a pretty clean bill of health on the motor
I put both on the list. will get to the autoparts store today if Randy is unavailable.
It did sit for a week, during the repair. Then it was leaking fuel and sat for another half-week, then we got it running; has died since I got it back.
A clean bill of health is exactly what I'm looking for, thanks for the help and advice.
As much as Andy would like to have you do a full diagnostic check, I would really on the 2 most likely areas of attention; valve adjustment & carbs.
To adjust the valves, initially you'll need a set of feeler gauges. Not too expensive $5-10. The 10 mm socket (I assume you also ratchet, extensions?). Remove the valve cover & sparkplugs. You can use a pen or pencil to find TDC. Obviously, don't just drop the pencil into the sparkplug hole, but lower it in until it contacts the piston. If it won't reach, get a longer one! You'll need a 17 0r 19mm wrench to turn the crank after removing the cover off the left end of the engine. Turn the crank until the piston is at max height. You've found TDC.
Check valve clearances per your service manual. Make sure none are too tight! Too loose will make a bit of noise, but won't cause any problems you're experiencing. And I'd be pretty surprised if you found a loose valve. If you need to adjust valves, this just got a bit more complex. Now you need a valve tool, your micrometer, pick and or small flat screwdriver, maybe a set of needle nose pliers to extract valve shims. Then measure shim and ORDER a replacement! This will take some time. (2-3 days?) At that point, get a valve cover gasket as well. Maybe the grommets for the valve cover if they're hard, should be soft & pliable. Insert new shims as needed. Before you get into a valve adjustment, read up. You can make a mess if you're not careful!
Carbs: A simple 6" Steel scale (ruler) will do the trick for a float adjustment. You'll need to find precisely when each float tang contacts the needle valve, then measure that float height when this happens. It will take time & patience, so allow enough of each since you need to check all 4 carbs, and get them right. I typically set them in the center of the range, (IIRC) ~0.85" or 27/32" or 21-22mm . Change out the pilot jets. I'd also check the emulsion tubes unless you saw the mechanic clean them. Reassemble & cross your fingers!
Sync your carbs? There is a description somewhere here of how to build a manometer at home for ~ $5-10. You really need 2 box fans to keep you engine cool while doing this. a remote gat tank can be cobbled from a radiator overflow kit ($10 at auto parts store). Otherwise, just a flat blade screwdriver and more patience will get it done. Balance 1 & 2, then 3 & 4, then balance the 2 pairs. Nothing to it (not really, but almost).
I've got deep-set 5-10mm & 17mm sockets, and socket wrenches.
Guess I'll get started on the valve clearance, seems doable in todays timeframe.
Anything I need to AVOID doing? Like, what is my major fuckup-scenario for this project?
There is not much point in starting to adjust the valves unless you are prepared with the correct tools and an,assortment of replacement shims it is a simple job for an,experienced mechanic. But if you have not worked on the inside of a .motor before I would not dive in. if you can get a forum member to help it would be best
Just sayin
Jeff
Any volunteers?
I'm in Esco.
Need to trip to the store and purchase some feeler gauges, will report results if valves are on/off.
I agree with the above if you're doing a full service, though it's significantly more difficult than just screwing the adapter in and turning the motor over (all there is to a compression check, really). Because the bike ran fine fairly recently, I wouldn't expect to find big problems, though after an unknown service I suppose anything's possible.
Pulling the plugs is less invasive than pulling the valve cover, and I think we're barking up the wrong tree here, though it's never a bad idea to check the lash. Bike ran reasonably well prior and now is leaking fuel into the oil; I was thinking more along the lines of ensuring that the cylinder seal hasn't been destroyed by watered-down oil.
Make sure you have the needed tools to get the cover off the left end of the motor as well. Sorry, I'm about 120 mi. to the North. Mopar Steve?
Quote from: simi_ed on May 16, 2014, 03:33:52 PM
Make sure you have the needed tools to get the cover off the left end of the motor as well. Sorry, I'm about 120 mi. to the North. Mopar Steve?
Big philips screwdriver?
Quote from: andyb on May 16, 2014, 03:48:07 PM
Quote from: simi_ed on May 16, 2014, 03:33:52 PM
Make sure you have the needed tools to get the cover off the left end of the motor as well. Sorry, I'm about 120 mi. to the North. Mopar Steve?
Big philips screwdriver?
Maybe a #3 Phillips will do it. I needed an impact driver the 1st time I removed the cover. Now mine has Allen screws and a set Renntec bars in the way. That's why I was a bit vague.
working on it.
need to remove the cylinder-head casing.
did some pre-lims, loosened it all up, saw the res' ready to drain and chose to hold up.
gonna drain the oil first, need an 18mm socket first cause spark plugs are.
waiting for Randy's package.
to all you newbies, Randy will treat you right with parts so; IF you need some, buy from him. no bullshit.
#realtalk
Cylinder head casing is what?
Valve cover you mean? Arguably the cylinder head itself is a casting, I suppose.
The big scary fuckups don't really happen doing this until you decide to just pull the cams out, or start playing with the camchain tensioner. The horrible, horrible little fuckups include stuff like remembering not to drop shit down the sparkplug holes while working on stuff with the plugs out. It's a right bitch to get the screws from the throttle cable connector thingy out of there (despite trying for a solid hour, the head will have to come off to get the bastard thing out).
I saw this topic just a few days ago, and yesterday I had the same trouble. I tried to start my bike and it liquid-locked with fuel in the cylinder. I also noticed fuel leaking on the ground, but not sure from where. The engine liquid-locked like this about 3 or 4 times in the 4 years I've owned it. I tapped on the float bowls with a small hammer and long 3/8 extension. Seemed to work fine and correct the problem. But yesterday was more intense. I changed the oil as I saw the oil in the window was foamy, thin, and VERY overfilled. When I drained the oil, it was thin as water with a serious fuel smell.
Got that all done, added a fuel filter, and tapped on the fuel bowls again. Started and worked fine today. Oil level and consistency is good. I'm not saying I permanently corrected the problem, though. Good advice has been given about rebuilding the carbs with new parts.
Ok late to this party ,,
pull the plugs and turn the engine over with the starter. does fuel spray out? like a big wet sneeze. do your carbs over.
did you ever jump start the engine with a car battery ? cause it would not turn over. if so you bent your rods due to fluid lock and now it runs like crap.
do a compression check on each cylinder. post the results.
If you all have already mentioned all this great. I am now an echo.