Really need new chain and both sprockets. Gonna get the $15 front sprocket from Randy.
Regarding the chain, I can't get something really expensive. I see chains for $50 but I'm sure they are junk, right?
So, chain recommendations? Middle grade quality. I don't really run it too hard, or race or anything.
Also rear sprocket is 41 tooth. Should I stay with that? Recommendations on what to buy.
This is for an 86 FJ
Thanks y'all
Quote from: sovrin on May 09, 2014, 12:15:51 PM
Really need new chain and both sprockets. Gonna get the $15 front sprocket from Randy.
Regarding the chain, I can't get something really expensive. I see chains for $50 but I'm sure they are junk, right?
So, chain recommendations? Middle grade quality. I don't really run it too hard, or race or anything.
Also rear sprocket is 41 tooth. Should I stay with that? Recommendations on what to buy.
This is for an 86 FJ
Thanks y'all
My advice is forget the 50.00 chain............. REALLY. A good chain can be had for about 140.00. I am sure there are other grades that will get by but the chain is an important part of the bike. Not only can it lead to an accident there are more than one reported cases of breaking/cracking engine cases when the chain fails and balls up around the drive sprocket area.
Just suppose you can get a "decent" chain for 100.00 going up 40 more dollars will get you what works. IMO a 50.00 e bay chain is a BIG mistake.
Here is where I bought my ZZZ 530 chain and that was the best price I could find.
http://www.indysuperbikes.com/product.php?productid=700059&page=1 (http://www.indysuperbikes.com/product.php?productid=700059&page=1)
But that said buy the best chain you can. A cheap chain really isn't a good deal.
George
Thanks for the reply.
Some people change sprocket sizes and I don't understand all the affects that has on everything.
Why do some put 18 tooth in front, instead of the stock 17 tooth?
And, on the rear, mine has a 41 now, but I don't know if that is the right size in the first place.
What affect does the tooth count have for front sprocket?
And what affect for rear sprocket?
Thanks in advance
Word is that the ZZZ has been discontinued and replaced with the 3D as the new top dog of strength. Prices are past high into the stupid range, though.
Quote from: andyb on May 09, 2014, 02:40:02 PM
Word is that the ZZZ has been discontinued and replaced with the 3D as the new top dog of strength. Prices are past high into the stupid range, though.
It's Relativity in practice. The ZZZ is now "moderately" priced ( and the clear choice here).
Quote from: sovrin on May 09, 2014, 01:53:54 PM
Thanks for the reply.
Why do some put 18 tooth in front, instead of the stock 17 tooth?
And, on the rear, mine has a 41 now, but I don't know if that is the right size in the first place.
What affect does the tooth count have for front sprocket?
And what affect for rear sprocket?
Thanks in advance
Firstly, on the cost/quality of the drive chain... You could certainly buy a $50 530 pitch chain and it will seem like you saved some money, but it's false economy. Technically, chains don't "stretch", but it appears as if they do because they get longer with wear. Essentially, each pivot pin will wear as the chain gets used and if you add up all this wear, the chain gets longer. This means you will be constantly adjusting out the slack...it also means that each pair of pivot pins are *slightly* farther apart, causing a mis-match with your sprocket teeth prematurely wearing your sprockets. Yeah...those new ones you just paid for. :yes: I rode the first 6,000 miles of a trip on a $50 non-o-ring D.I.D. chain a dealer installed during a regular service (back in the days when I had no where to work on a bike and figured the dealer wouldn't steer me wrong! :shok:). I was lubing and adjusting that thing so often that I threw it out and installed an EK ZZZ chain and new sprockets on the road in South Carolina. I rode another 12,000 miles on that trip and only had to adjust the slack twice! I've since put ANOTHER 5,000 miles on that chain and still haven't had to make an adjustment! It's cheaper to buy the good stuff the first time out.
On changing sprocket tooth sizes...Surely, you've ridden a multi-gear bicycle? Changing from a 17 tooth front to an 18 tooth front will make your final drive ratio "taller". That will drop the revs a bit in each gear at a given speed. That will change your shift points slightly...that moment when you feel you should go down a gear will come a bit sooner. Not that big of a deal...the bigger effect is that the bike won't "pull" as well in first gear and will have a lower RPM on the highway in fifth gear. Going to a larger sprocket in the rear will have the opposite effect of all the above. It's a personal preference and begs the question, "What are you trying to *solve*? My '92 came from the factory with 17-40 and I think it's just right for me.
Cap'n Ron. . .
Quote from: sovrin on May 09, 2014, 01:53:54 PM
Thanks for the reply.
Some people change sprocket sizes and I don't understand all the affects that has on everything.
Why do some put 18 tooth in front, instead of the stock 17 tooth?
And, on the rear, mine has a 41 now, but I don't know if that is the right size in the first place.
What affect does the tooth count have for front sprocket?
And what affect for rear sprocket?
Thanks in advance
Last kick at the dead horse: Pay me now or really pay me later. A "cheap" chain becomes very expensive when it goes through your cases.
Bite the bullet. Get the ZZZ and protect your chain investment with new sprockets. A worn sprocket will eat up your new chain. Get your drive train all fresh and you will be set for a goodly while.
Sprocket.101
The counter shaft (front) and hub (back) sprocket of a motorcycle are like the ring and pinion gears in a car differential. They reduce the RPM of the wheel in relation to that of the transmission output shaft and in the process proportionately multiply the torque to the wheel .
On the motorcycle, the smaller the front and the larger the rear the more reduction of wheel rpm in relation to engine rpm in any given gear and so the greater the torque multiplication to the wheel in that gear. At any given road speed the engine is spinning faster with a smaller front or a bigger rear sprocket.
Also the smaller the front sprocket the more strain on the chain (fewer teeth distribute the load to fewer links)
The stock sprocket tooth counts on the FJ are a good selection for most normal driving.
Because of the benefit to chain life it has been my personal practice to run the biggest counter shaft (front) sprocket that will fit. For my (non-aggressive) style of riding and the torque characteristics of this motor 1 tooth up on the front and stock on the back works mighty fine.
Gearing files are here:
http://www.fjowners.com/index.php?board=23.0 (http://www.fjowners.com/index.php?board=23.0)
I am grateful to all of you for your enthusiasm and helpful insights. I'm not a mechanic by any means but with advice I can get by. If anybody wants advice on Vinyl siding, that is my specialty! Thanks again
Just my 3 cents worth. I don't have much spare cash these days and after pricing DID 530 X-Ring chains locally for anywhere from $220-$300, I had to get something not as expensive. Friend across the road had ordered a SSS Gold X-Ring chain from feked.com in the UK, for his GTS1000 Yam. He seemed pretty happy with it after 7 months, so I ordered one as well.
$160.00 delivered, and so far after 5500kms haven't had to adjust it yet. If I had the money, I would have bought either of the big two brands of chain, but the SSS is working great for me. :good2:
If you cannot afford a $150 chain, you cannot afford to ride.
Sorry, it's true. It also holds true of that $150 helmet, and the rest of your gear.
You can get good chains that aren't the ZZZ. (Because it's out of production, expect sales, incidentally, as vendors try to get it off the shelf.) I've run what I think is an SRX chain (RK maybe?) for awhile on the ZX9, and had great luck. The FJ has a ZZZ, mind.
Once you've broken a chain because it was all you could afford, fixed it, and broken it again--and not at the master link, a clip link is plenty strong compared to the rest of the chain!!!!!--and thrown it through your crankcases which are then fixed by JB weld and much swearing and are always a point of frustration and fear.... Then you will understand.
It's the same with tires. If you cannot afford to replace a bald tire, you cannot afford to ride a motorcycle.
If you cannot afford brake pads, you cannot afford to ride.
If you can't afford the divorce, you can't have the upstairs maid.
And so on.
advice heeded. I don't want to sacrifice safety or expensive repairs by buying a cheap chain. But that is why I asked. A lot of things in life don't require the most expensive option, so I just needed to hear some quality feedback about this topic of chains. I am getting a good one, not the cheapie. Thanks for everybody's help, and for the thoughts on sprockets as well.
Hey guys, I'm putting on the new EK chain, and both sprockets now. Question: to get the front drive sprocket off, the book tells me to have someone apply the rear brake in order provide resistance to break the nut free. Too late for that. Rear wheel is off now to install new rear sprocket and old chain is off. Can I just put it into 1st gear and let the motor provide the resistance, in essense? Or should I install the new chain and then use the book method to get the front sprocket off, then change the front sprocket once the new chain is on????
Advice???
Well, you never know...
I replaced my chain last month, and I didn't have an assistant, so I straddled the bike with my right foot pressing the rear brake, and leaned over to heave on the breaker bar, (I'm big enough to do that),and....
The front sprocket nut came off without any resistance! Scary. It had just been floating laterally on the output shaft, with the chain's alignment keeping it centered. (Once again, I cursed a PO.)
Try it in first? Why not? The worst it can do is spin the motor. Do you have an impact wrench? That may break torque before the engine spins. (Or, if desperate, a rag or rag-wrapped piece of wood to jam the sprocket.)
George or Fred will probably have some good advice in a bit. :empathy3:
Do it in 5th gear. That will give the engine the most "lever arm" to resist the torque.
Quote from: sovrin on May 09, 2014, 12:15:51 PM
So, chain recommendations? Middle grade quality. I don't really run it too hard, or race or anything.
Sorry for late info and it won't be applicable to sovrin other than as something to mentally file.
Drag racing puts a given stress on a chain, but it's absolutely not as much as hitting bumps does...most of the stress comes from the chassis sagging on the launch. Because the countershaft, swingarm pivot, and rear axle all move in such a way that the chain gets tighter as you compress the suspension, the hardest thing for a chain to cope with is the stress of hitting a sharp bump and having the chain be the limiting factor in how far the tire moves up.... this is why a too-tight chain will get very poor life compared to a chain that's too loose by the same margin.
If you picture those three elements as the triangle that their points describe, the chain must wrap the entire way around the triangle (obviously). As the swingarm comes up, the three form a flatter and flatter (or shorter vertically) triangle, but that makes the distance around longer, which stresses the chain. The point of maximum chain tension will be when all three points are in a straight line with each other, and some people have used this as the way to work out the optimal chain setting, particularly after making various changes to things. If you compress the shock until the sprockets are in alignment with the swingarm pivot, the chain will never be tighter than that. Set it to have a tiny fraction of play at that point, then release the shock to the normal position that you're going to use to remember for adjustment. A great thing to do at this point is to make a little aluminum jig that you can stick between the chain and swingarm of the proper size, and stick it on your keychain. Bingo, perfect, repeatable chain tension every time!
The other thing that tears up chains in short order is the power pulses from the engine itself. The engine doesn't make smooth power, it makes it in a series of burn events (turbines and such exotica excluded). Big singles, particularly when coupled to wheels lacking cushdrives? Yeah. Buy stock in EK or RK.
Impact or zip gun is usually the recommended way to remove a front sprocket, especially with the chain already off or hanging slack, etc. The big piece of advice that I can give here is make sure the socket absolutely fits and grips as much of the countershaft nut as possible. For me, this means using a 6 point impact socket that has spent some quality time against a bench grinder. If you look at most sockets, they have a slight rounding to the edge, the portion that goes onto the nut first (dunno how else to explain it). I view that as surface area of the nut that it will be unable to grip, so by making the hex shape consistent right to the very end of the socket, you gain a little resistance to rounding the nut, spreading the load over a slightly larger area. I finally did go back with some sandpaper and a file (use the sandpaper, the file was a waste of time on the hard steel) and broke the edges a bit, after cutting myself on the damned thing. Works like a champ though.
Face ground down on socket to fit shallow nut.
(http://fjowners.com/gallery/6/1651_01_10_13_7_59_20.jpeg)
I just put a 2x4 / a stick , crosswise the rear wheel spoke and the swing arm while in high gear. The TQ on that sprocket should only be around 65 ft ls. Thats out of memory anyhow.
^ Exactly that. Though I reiterate that I'd use a 6point socket as a starting point.
The other thing to know about gearing bits is that identical ratios can alter the chain tension on the loaded run. 16/48 (to use non-FJ numbers for easier math) will pull less hard on the chain than 15/45. This changes the tension the chain sees a bit, though as described above, this isn't the big load that the chain worries about. More importantly, it'll also change the amount of antisquat effect that the swingarm sees, and that'll change how the shock reacts under hard accelleration. It's not a huge thing to worry about if you're on a streetbike, because a streetbike's suspension is a compromise at the best of times, though it's something to be aware of. Starts to matter more if you go racing.