I've got a dead bike. I've been searching all kinds of stuff, but my problem is not that I'm having trouble finding answers. It's having too many answers. With my limited FJ knowledge, I suspect I'm chasing problems that I don't actually have, so I'll apologize in advance if I'm asking questions that everybody but me knows the answer to.
I got an '86 last summer. With the choke on full, it would start barely, run briefly, and die as soon as I'd twist the throttle. It would do this repeatedly. The guy I got it from said he bought it that way, and told me "I posted a bunch of questions on a forum online, but I never did get it running." I don't know if he was here, but I'll include a pic in case it jogs anybody's memory. Best pic I have of the bike in one piece.
(http://i1367.photobucket.com/albums/r799/gofastica/IMAG3207_zps64b087c8.jpg) (http://s1367.photobucket.com/user/gofastica/media/IMAG3207_zps64b087c8.jpg.html)
About a month ago I found another '86. It runs, so I figured the best way to fix a non-runner is to just swap parts with an identical running bike.
(http://i1367.photobucket.com/albums/r799/gofastica/IMAG0134_zps8e2993ae.jpg) (http://s1367.photobucket.com/user/gofastica/media/IMAG0134_zps8e2993ae.jpg.html)
When I first messed with the non-runner last summer, I found what seemed to be a weak spark from one of the coils, and very minimal fuel flow from the tank, but I didn't really have time to pursue things further. Now that I have a runner, I've swapped both coils and the ignitor unit. Dead bike still dead, runner still runs. I'll be checking more stuff today.
I have a Clymer manual, though I don't know how good a non-factory manual is. According to the VIN info listed, both are 49 state 1986 models, but I found both bikes have different petcock valves.
(http://i1367.photobucket.com/albums/r799/gofastica/tanks_zps24295386.jpg) (http://s1367.photobucket.com/user/gofastica/media/tanks_zps24295386.jpg.html)
The non-runner has what the manual indicates is the proper petcock....manual on/reserve valve, with a vacuum diaphragm.
(http://i1367.photobucket.com/albums/r799/gofastica/tanks2_zps907a6dd8.jpg) (http://s1367.photobucket.com/user/gofastica/media/tanks2_zps907a6dd8.jpg.html)
The runner has a petcock not shown in the manual....no manual valve, and electrical rather than vacuum control.
(http://i1367.photobucket.com/albums/r799/gofastica/tanks3_zps5a8baeb2.jpg) (http://s1367.photobucket.com/user/gofastica/media/tanks3_zps5a8baeb2.jpg.html)
Since they're both '86's, I assume they should be the same. I therefore also assume one of the petcocks (or tank) was changed at some point. Both bikes are wired for the electric one, but the manual shows the other as the proper one for the year. I get a much greater fuel flow out of the electrical one, though I suppose both flow a sufficient amount.
I pulled the carbs off the runner and mounted them on the non-runner, thinking maybe one set was gummed up from sitting. I also mounted the runners tank, with the electric petcock. I was able to get the non-runner to idle on full choke for about 15 seconds, but just as when I bought it, I hit the throttle and it died.
While doing this, the non-runner was cranking very slowly. The other bike cranked normally with the same battery in it. I pulled the battery out of my car and hooked it up with jumper cables to add some extra amps. It cranked much better, and that's when it briefly started, but I haven't been able to get it to run again.
So at this point, I don't even really know what semi-intelligent questions to ask. If I've got weak spark from one coil, and given the way it cranks I'm guessing I probably have multiple bad connections somewhere. I'm about at the point where I'm ready to tear the bike down completely and clean everything as I put it back together. I have a '90 that became an unintended long term (3 years) project in much the same way though, so I'm a bit hesitant to go down that road again. Is there any part of the system that would cause weak spark in just one coil, which is otherwise known to be good, or would both coils be effected by other components that may be bad?
Should I be concerned about this petcock? Based on the diagrams in the manual, it seems to be missing a fuel screen that goes up into the tank. Plus, given that the bike is wired for the electronic one, is that what I should have on there?
I haven't done a compression test, and know I should, but I can't find an adapter locally for the spark plug hole on the bike. In the mean time, any thoughts appreciated. I'm trying to turn this mess into two running bikes.
:dash2:
(http://i1367.photobucket.com/albums/r799/gofastica/IMAG0254_zpsb18c9a2a.jpg) (http://s1367.photobucket.com/user/gofastica/media/IMAG0254_zpsb18c9a2a.jpg.html)
Clean the carbs on the maroon bike...clean them correctly.
Read the Carb Files.......Study the Carb Files. Roll up your sleeves and do it...
We have documented all the information you need to do the job correctly. We worked hard on this. We did this for a reason. We get the same questions over and over. How do I clean my carbs?
We tend to get cranky when people don't read it...
Remember...Carb cleaning 101: Half measures will avail you nothing. Do it right.
Any parts you need for the carbs are available from RPM.
I've not seen a vacuum petcock like that. No clue were it came from. The '84/85 petcocks are a less expensive alternative to the pricey '86-87 reserve petcocks...also available from RPM. See the vendor file section.
You are going about it wrong....instead of swapping old parts from a running bike to a old non running bike, fix the parts on the non running bike (like the carbs)
Pick one bike and work on it...step by step....failure to do so will send you into vapor lock.
FTHY
Quote from: Pat Conlon on May 02, 2014, 03:50:28 PM
Clean the carbs on the maroon bike...clean them correctly.
Read the Carb Files.......Study the Carb Files. Roll up your sleeves and do it...
We have documented all the information you need to do the job correctly. We worked hard on this. We did this for a reason. We get the same questions over and over. How do I clean my carbs?
We tend to get VERY cranky when people don't read it...
Remember...Carb cleaning 101: Half measures will avail you nothing. Do it right.
Any parts you need for the carbs are available from RPM.
I've not seen a vacuum petcock like that. No clue were it came from. The '84/85 petcocks are a less expensive alternative to the pricey '86-87 reserve petcocks...also available from RPM. See the vendor file section.
You are going about it wrong....instead of swapping old parts from a running bike to a old non running bike, fix the parts on the non running bike (like the carbs)
Pick one bike and work on it...step by step....failure to do so will send you and US into vapor lock.
Great advice Pat:
Step 1) Put the Red/white back together...hopefully it still runs and you can find everything and where everything goes.....
Step 2) Ride it and enjoy it....
Step 3) Use the motivation from the enjoyment above to clean carbs on the modded bike..
Good luck
Jeff
I know carbs have to be gone through meticulously. It's on my list. I did know enough to not ask about how to clean or tune carbs. Gotta get at least one point for that, right?
I figured it was worth a try though, pulling carbs off a running bike. Even if it ran poorly, it would have possibly told me if I was chasing a fuel problem or an electrical problem. Just out of curiosity, I'm going to put the carbs from the dead bike on the runner and see if it starts up with them. Regardless, they'll get cleaned. With these two and my '90, I might even know what I'm doing by the time I get done cleaning 12 carbs.
Thanks for the input
Try to start the bike. It fails to start. Shoot ether at it, or a spray bottle of gas. Does it make good noises, or does it not fire?
Remove spark plug. Hold in bare hand while attached to coil. Try to start bike. If it kicks your ass, you have a fuel problem. If you're left standing, you have a spark problem.
If you remove the plug after trying to start the bike and it smells of gas, it's more likely spark than fuel.
If it's been sitting for any length of time, you have a fuel problem. Period. You may also have a spark problem. You will manage to fix neither unless you methodically look at them one at a time. It's just a motor, same as your lawnmower.
Quote from: andyb on May 02, 2014, 06:11:06 PM
Remove spark plug. Hold in bare hand while attached to coil. Try to start bike. If it kicks your ass, you have a fuel problem. If you're left standing, you have a spark problem.
Andy, for a self proclaimed novice looking for advice (and one who is already confused by the advice he's had) the above is vague, inconclusive and not very scientific, as is "shoot ether at it" without explaining how (such as raising the slide before you spray).
Noel
Noel,
You're right, AndyB's comment was a fatuous attempt at humor, which probably was not the best thing to post to an admitted novice looking for knowledgable advice.
However, I thought it was funny (and mean) enough to copy and send to all my mates with a modicum of mechanical nous :-) I would probably rate the humor contained as about equal to those gag fart pillows or squirting flower lapel pins.
Greetings from the uk.
Try cleaning up the main earth lead or running an extra one down to the starter mounting bolt.
Quote from: Dogsbestfriend on May 03, 2014, 03:59:18 PM
Greetings from the uk.
Try cleaning up the main earth lead or running an extra one down to the starter mounting bolt.
Welcome ! Good grounds are important. You shouldn't have to install an extra wire though at the starter if the main wire is in good shape.
George
The carb cleaning suggestion is the best place to start. When I first got my '85 I had to clean the carbs three times until I got it right. On my bike she never turned over fast enough to fire up. I researched and discovered I had a three brush starter motor. I ordered a four brush starter motor of Randy and the bike started up easily. A slow starter motor will affect everything.
But a great starter motor will not help clogged carbies, and from what I can gather, these bikes are very particular about good fueling.
Once you do the carbs, look at the choke plungers, ensure they are not trying to move in old hard rubbers, the fuel line can be altered for easier tank removal, wire up you fuel cock for safety, consider new carb diaphragms, cheap ones are at http://jbmindustries.com/ (http://jbmindustries.com/) they work very well, or buy the genuine ones from Randy.
But basics first, carbs and a starter motor.
Good luck.
Cheers, Gareth
Quote from: Arnie on May 03, 2014, 09:20:27 AMAndyB's comment was a fatuous attempt at humor, which probably was not the best thing to post to an admitted novice looking for knowledgable advice.
However, I thought it was funny...
I got the humor in it. I prefer other coil testing procedures, though I appreciate the suggestion.
And I get the 'new guy asking dumb questions' thing too. I'm on several car forums, and there's always some 19 year old kid who asks about something there's 100 threads on because his attention span is like 9 seconds and he couldn't be bothered to read, assuming he knows how.
For the record, I've got some skills, but after so many years it's easy to just find yourself sticking to what you know. I'm a Volvo guy. Most every knock, or tick, or non-running issue, I'd know where to start looking. I'm familiar with their idiosyncracies.
The bike is out of my comfort zone. My main issues are...
1. I grew up in a fuel injected world. I know nothing about carburetors.
2. I know nothing of common FJ issues. To use an example that I know, when the PCV system gets clogged on a turbo Volvo, it blows blue smoke and is often diagnosed as a bad turbo. It's the difference between a thousand dollar repair vs. a sixty dollar repair. Little issues like that, if they show up on my bike, would have me chasing stuff totally unrelated to whatever my actual problem is.
3. And that brings me to my third issue...information overload. I could spend all day here, and elsewhere, reading. Not that I wouldn't enjoy that, but I do have to work/sleep some time. Plus, it's easy to forget new info coming in when you don't know what your doing in the first place.
Anyway... I've got one set of carbs apart, being cleaned, and have more questions. When I reinstall the mixture screw, is there a baseline for getting it close to where it should be set? All the way in, then back two and a half turns, or something like that? And when it's running, how do I know when these are properly adjusted? I'm trying to remember a brief lesson on carb adjusting from way back in high school shop class, but even then there was only one carb, not 4. I'm assuming there's a better way than just running it for a while, then checking the plugs.
I looked a couple times and didn't see it in the carb guide. If it's there, and I missed it, please refer to #3 above.
Thanks
I've got a steady drip of fuel coming from one of the overflow tubes. Does that mean one of my float levels is out of whack?
Nah, I give up.
When you removed the float needle seats for cleaning, did you replace your needle seat o rings?
2.5 turns out (from seated) is a good place to start on your idle mixture screws...
I did not. I looked around locally for various O-rings, and the only ones I could find in the proper size were the 6mm fuel transfer tube rings. I took a chance on the rest. I'll order some, replace them, and see how that works. Kinda makes sense now....each carb seems to be leaking from somewhere. When I pulled the set off, the butterfly valves were all coated with fuel. I just don't know enough about carburetors to know what I should be looking for as the cause, so thank you.
On the plus side, it did run, and fairly well. I used the 4 carbs from the non-running bike. I figured if I screwed them up completely, I still had my set that came off a bike that was running last week. Anyway, they were pretty nasty inside, so I'm rather thrilled that the bike started at all.
Thanks for everybody's input. I really do appreciate it.
Randy at RPM has an O ring kit. http://www.rpmracingca.com/proddetail.asp?prod=carbkit&cat=24 (http://www.rpmracingca.com/proddetail.asp?prod=carbkit&cat=24)
Also these will work for your needle and seats http://www.oringsandmore.com/viton-oring-7-1-x-1-6mm-price-for-25-pcs/ (http://www.oringsandmore.com/viton-oring-7-1-x-1-6mm-price-for-25-pcs/)
George
Quote from: simi_ed on May 02, 2014, 04:04:32 PM
FTHY
Quote from: Pat Conlon on May 02, 2014, 03:50:28 PM
Clean the carbs on the maroon bike...clean them correctly.
Read the Carb Files.......Study the Carb Files. Roll up your sleeves and do it...
We have documented all the information you need to do the job correctly. We worked hard on this. We did this for a reason. We get the same questions over and over. How do I clean my carbs?
We tend to get VERY cranky when people don't read it... if you figure what parts or parts you need I have them , just let me know
Remember...Carb cleaning 101: Half measures will avail you nothing. Do it right.
Any parts you need for the carbs are available from RPM.
I've not seen a vacuum petcock like that. No clue were it came from. The '84/85 petcocks are a less expensive alternative to the pricey '86-87 reserve petcocks...also available from RPM. See the vendor file section.
You are going about it wrong....instead of swapping old parts from a running bike to a old non running bike, fix the parts on the non running bike (like the carbs)
Pick one bike and work on it...step by step....failure to do so will send you and US into vapor lock.
Been a while...work got in the way of toys.
I bought all new O-rings, replaced all of them in two sets of carburetors, and cleaned everything spotless.
Reinstalled one set on the red bike, it ran great, and I sold it.
Reinstalled the other set on the maroon bike, and I'm back to where I started. Bike starts at full choke, and dies instantly when I twist the throttle.
Haven't sync'd the carbs yet. Probably tomorrow. I tried the mixture screws in multiple positions from one turn out to two and a half. No setting was better than any other. Plugs are not wet, or fouled.
Any thoughts on what to chase now would be appreciated.
My 2 cents. Order this http://www.rpmracingca.com/proddetail.asp?prod=carbkit&cat=24 (http://www.rpmracingca.com/proddetail.asp?prod=carbkit&cat=24) Money well spent.
It started with the choke on. This tells us, it is a carb problem. Did you use a ultrasonic cleaner? Clean carbs again.
Three owners have not gotten this right yet. Keep working at it. Starting with the choke on, will it stay running with the choke on? Not twisting the throttle.
There are very small passages that are probably still blocked.
Kurt
Kurt has hit it. Pilot circuit is clogged.
Try spray carb cleaner into the mixture adjusting screw hole. JAM the tube in so it lodges in place. Spray until cleaner comes out the front air jet. Cover air jet, spray again until cleaner comes out of pilot jet. Now cover pilot jet, air jet & spray again. Cleaner will come out of small passage down-bore of the throttle plate. This WILL clear a plugged pilot circuit. Reassemble and repeat until all 4 carbs are done.
Initially it started with the choke on, and I could rev it a bit but it would stumble like it was misfiring, and pop out of the exhaust. I rode it about 100 feet, with the choke still on, and it died. After that, it will only run with the choke on, and any throttle kills it.
I replaced every O-ring in the carbs, so I probably won't get the kit just to get new bolts. If I still needed the O-rings though, that's a good deal.
So, as long as I'm pulling the carbs apart again, I suppose I should re-jet it. It's got a K&N filter and a big no-name single can exhaust on it. Otherwise, it's stock mechanically. Any advice on jetting, or should I leave it as is?
Thanks for the advice and suggestions. I appreciate it.
One thing at a time. This is a GOLDEN rule of mechanics.
Fix your problem first, and then if needed go back and change ONE other thing.
If you clean the carbs, and change the jetting, and adjust the needles, and change the air filters, etc, and it runs like crap...... What is the cause? In fact, even if it runs like a brand new scalded cat, what is the cause?
Yes, I know how tempting it is to be "efficient" with your time, but think how much more efficient you'll be at R&R carbs after a few more goes. :-)
Sorry you are still having problems. Take nothing for granted. I would start with a fresh look at the problem. Apparently this problem was inherited from the PO and you don't know what he (and others) did in trying to fix it. Anything is possable.
Just because it is the way I am. I would pull the valve cover, check the cam timing marks and valve clearances.
Check the plugs for any clues.
In the fuel system:
Start at the petcock. Make sure you have fuel flow..... Don't assume it, double check it
Fuel line routed exactly as Yamaha spec's.
If you pull the carbs out take your time, completely tear them down, clean and inspect... Its an old bike anything is possable. Are the needle and seats the correct ones (there are 2 sizes)? At a minimum clean with lots of cleaner and compressed air. Check the intake manifolds for cracks. Change out the intake "O" rings. Make sure the floats are not binding, are even and adjusted correctly. Check every bloody detail. Take your time. Post some pictures and ask questions if you need help or advise.
If you are inclined to have someone else rebuild them then I would strongly recommend Randy at RPM. He knows those carbs inside out. He is the only one I would recommend.
Best advice, assume nothing, something is "dicked" up. It is just a machine and in the end you will probably find out out it was something real simple. Have faith you can fix it. For me in an unknown situation putting it back into factory spec's is a good start. Base line....
George
First, you say the carbs are clean. If the carbs were clean then the bike would be running. This is not a put down but to put you on the right track.
Second, disassemble all four carbs. Keeping the parts separate. Then blow all the small passages with carb cleaner. Doing it this way, if one or two have have the cleaner coming out of a passage and the others don't. You have found a problem, this may not be the only problem. Blow one passage at a time and move to the next carb. Unsure if you got it, let it sit for a couple of minutes and spray that passage again. If it was me, I think that I would do all carbs twice in this manner.
Third, o rings. Getting the o rings from where ever is fine, as long as you got the correct sizes. This is the main reason we recommended the RPM kit. You and we know that you have the right parts. Also, some buy pluming o rings, that the gas will destroy.
Fourth, worrying about the jetting, on a bike that wont run is like putting the cart before the horse to me. When you have the carbs apart write down all the jet sizes to refer back to once the bike is running. Check sizes on all four carbs, assume nothing.
Last, buy EXPENSIVE CARB CLEANER!!!! Don't buy the cheap stuff!!!!! If the bike had been, being ridden last year you could get away with it but it has been sitting and you NEED GOOD CLEANER. Stay with it, you are close. Just a few small details and it will be running and you will be ridding it.
Hope this helps.
Kurt
I figured it had to be a problem with some little passageway somewhere, but my knowledge of carbs is limited. Thanks for pointing me in the right direction. They're off, and apart, and I'm in the process of blowing out the pilot circuit, and everything else just for kicks.
The "One thing at a time" theory...have to say, I'm not a fan.
The O-rings are all viton, in the exact sizes specified somewhere here on this site but I don't remember where. One of the carb tutorials maybe, I don't recall.
As for the fuel, I pulled the tank off my lawn mower and I've got that hooked up with fresh fuel. No petcock, just straight flow. At some point I'll drain the tank when I put it on, but for now I doubt it's a fuel problem, or a flow problem.
Quote from: yamaha fj rider on July 22, 2014, 10:26:35 AMIf the carbs were clean then the bike would be running.
Well, assuming it's not running due to a carburetor problem. That's the assumption, but as was pointed out, I'm chasing some unknown problem that two previous owners couldn't fix. Point taken though.
As for the cart and the horse, knowing myself as I do, once it's running I won't pull the carbs again the jet it. If it needs it, I figured I should do it while it's apart (for the 3rd time). I'll let it go though. This is one I just want running so I can get rid of it. I've got bigger fish to fry.
Anyway, in the process, I heard some little metal piece hit the floor. This is what I found.
(http://i1367.photobucket.com/albums/r799/gofastica/carb_zpsb3013f1f.jpg) (http://s1367.photobucket.com/user/gofastica/media/carb_zpsb3013f1f.jpg.html)
:dash2:
So, I've got a set of carbs from my '90 that's in permanent project status. They're the same, right? I can use one of them?
Really appreciate the help
There is a minor change between the 86 and a 1990 carb. The 86 being gravity feed has different needle and seat. The 1990 has a smaller inlet orifice because it is fuel pump driven. Just use you 86 needle and seat. I am told those post's can be micro welded. But that's about the extent of my knowledge.
George
Quote from: rosso75 on July 24, 2014, 12:40:23 AM
So, I've got a set of carbs from my '90 that's in permanent project status. They're the same, right? I can use one of them?
Really appreciate the help
It depends on which carb body that is to determine if you can use the 90 on the 86 bank. You can only use the two end carbs from the 90 on the 86 bank.
Randy - RPM
It's not an end carb, unfortunately.
This is where I admit to stupidity...
So a friend comes by, and I'm telling him how I can't get it running, and he asks me if I did a compression test. I tell him I'd love to, but I don't have the 10mm adapter. He had one. End result...zero compression in #3. I put oil in it, and still nothing. I'm assuming a burned valve or two.
Obvious moral to this story...check compression.
So, I've got a '90 that I plan to keep. If I'm going to put money into a valve job, or whatever this needs, I'd rather be putting that money into a keeper, not a bike I'm going to sell. My thought was to swap the whole motor from my '90 into the '86, and rebuild the '86 motor to use in the '90. If that'll work, I can have it running much quicker and cheaper.
Any thoughts on the viability of that option would be appreciated
It took a while, with various search words, but I found a few threads indicating that the motors will swap. Hopefully today I'll have it going.
(http://i1367.photobucket.com/albums/r799/gofastica/swap_zps54850f3e.jpg) (http://s1367.photobucket.com/user/gofastica/media/swap_zps54850f3e.jpg.html)
In the mean time, I've tried various searches for engine numbers and can't figure out what they mean. Obviously the last 6 match the VIN, but what do the first three indicate? One engine is stamped 1UX, and the other is 3SK.
Thanks
The '90 motor is in the '86 now. I still have to mount the carbs.
In the process, I noticed the '90 motor has a 1 wire sensor on the left side of the motor, below the side cover. The '86 just has a plug. I checked the wiring diagrams in the manual I have and I could only find 2 sensors with a single wire. One is the neutral switch, which this clearly isn't, and the other is the oil level sensor, which looks completely different in the picture in the manual.
So what is this sensor? Do I need it on the '86, and what will I need to do to account for it being missing now on the motor that's in my '90?