...and so it begins
(http://i187.photobucket.com/albums/x248/cyclaholic_album/fj1200/fj1200%20rebuild/P1010256_zps332483ab.jpg)
(http://i187.photobucket.com/albums/x248/cyclaholic_album/fj1200/fj1200%20rebuild/P1010258_zps22f0c7aa.jpg)
(http://i187.photobucket.com/albums/x248/cyclaholic_album/fj1200/fj1200%20rebuild/P1010263_zps744729fa.jpg)
Yet another rebuild like so many others here.... but this time I'm turning the spanners instead of sitting back and enjoying reading about someone else's rebuild! :shok: as you can see I've got all the way down to removing the carbs, which I'm sire will garner a collective yawn here but its further than I have ever delved into this bike, and not without a measure of trepidation.
And speaking of the bike...
She's a 1989 FJ1200 with 164,000km on the dial (it might be 264,000 I don't know). She is well maintained, although not the prettiest looking example as she is a daily commuter and general workhorse, but in very good condition overall, but on the way back into Sydney after a thousand km long weekend in the southern highlands she started jumping out of first gear, just like the known 2nd gear problem in earlier models, so I've decided that since I'll have to drop the engine and split the case I might as well do everything else I've been planning on doing for a while now.
Compression is a little down, she burns a bit more oil than she should, and is a little smoky at start up, so I'm thinking a bore/hone with one size up pistons (probably a wiseco kit). I'll go over the head and do whatever needs done there, replace the noisy cam chain, probably the starter chain too, and generally look at everything else and replace as necessary.
I've already contacted Randy about the gearbox parts, and I'll probably get a bunch of goodies from him as well... oiled foam air filter, spin on oil filter, the large oil radiator kit, and upgrade the clutch spring which is starting to slip under heavy load.
I'm confident to undertake the rebuild, especially with access to the wealth of knowledge documented in this forum.... and I may need to ask a few questions along the way. I'm a newbie at this, so please be gentle when I inevitably ask all the silly questions.
Cheers,
Gabe.
...forgot to mention - the accelerator and choke cables are frayed at the carb end, plus the accelerator cables are quite sticky so I've probably saved myself being stranded somewhere with a broken cable!
I must admit, I'm not in the habit of doing regular maintenance on those cables. My bad. That's not going to be the case in future.
They are now on the 'replace' list.
Nice start. Keep up the good posts as you go. I am looking into doing some top end work in the future so will be following your project. Good time to upgrade or improve a few things for sure. Last year I did the clutch mod and the clutch feels great. I ordered a shift kit but as of yet haven't installed it, just to busy with other things on the bike. You might look into that as you are going to have everything apart.
If you rebuild the carbs it is a good time to install new Allen head screws and get rid of those JIS screws and get rid of that stock FJ air box with UniPods.
Conversion of the old Yamaha cartrage oil filter system to a spin on filter is nice. I have done all of those and wouldn't think of going back.
Keep up the posts !
Cheers George
This is gonna be great! (popcorn)
Quote from: movenon on April 11, 2014, 08:47:32 AM
Nice start. Keep up the good posts as you go. I am looking into doing some top end work in the future so will be following your project. Good time to upgrade or improve a few things for sure. Last year I did the clutch mod and the clutch feels great. I ordered a shift kit but as of yet haven't installed it, just to busy with other things on the bike. You might look into that as you are going to have everything apart.
If you rebuild the carbs it is a good time to install new Allen head screws and get rid of those JIS screws and get rid of that stock FJ air box with UniPods.
Conversion of the old Yamaha cartrage oil filter system to a spin on filter is nice. I have done all of those and wouldn't think of going back.
Keep up the posts !
Cheers George
George,
are you planning on top end work out of necessity or trying to squeeze more ponies out of her? I am curious because although a lot is mentioned on the forum regarding upgrades to just about every other component to the FJ but there is little regarding the top-end.
usually there is a lot to be gained in working on the heads.
Scott
Quote from: FJscott on April 11, 2014, 12:29:49 PM
Quote from: movenon on April 11, 2014, 08:47:32 AM
Nice start. Keep up the good posts as you go. I am looking into doing some top end work in the future so will be following your project. Good time to upgrade or improve a few things for sure. Last year I did the clutch mod and the clutch feels great. I ordered a shift kit but as of yet haven't installed it, just to busy with other things on the bike. You might look into that as you are going to have everything apart.
If you rebuild the carbs it is a good time to install new Allen head screws and get rid of those JIS screws and get rid of that stock FJ air box with UniPods.
Conversion of the old Yamaha cartrage oil filter system to a spin on filter is nice. I have done all of those and wouldn't think of going back.
Keep up the posts !
Cheers George
George,
are you planning on top end work out of necessity or trying to squeeze more ponies out of her? I am curious because although a lot is mentioned on the forum regarding upgrades to just about every other component to the FJ but there is little regarding the top-end.
usually there is a lot to be gained in working on the heads.
Scott
Scott:
Here is where I at. My compression is 125psi across the board and I believe that my valve seals could be replaced. As to the compression I am not to alarmed about, it runs good enough to get me into trouble. It actually runs really good. As to the seals they are 20 years old and the bike smokes some at start up. Could also be valve stems leaking down.
Next winter I want to pull the top end do an inspection and repair as required. If there is a little more power that I can get out of it reasonably then I will do that. IMO An FJ that is running in spec's is a pretty good machine. Note also that the compression gage I used isn't calibrated and could be high or low. But what ever it is it is even across the cylinders.
As to the gains modifying the top end I have to deferr to those that have been there and done that. I have read about adjusting the cam timing and other things but have no experience with it on the FJ. I have done some porting and clean up in the years past with other bikes and cars and now take a position that you can do more harm than good.
Engine related I am pretty happy with the mild stuff. I have Cobra F1s that I repacked, UniPods, increased the jetting a little, advanced the igniton about 3 degrees, did the clutch mod. I have a shift kit on the shelf yet to be installed. I am running 18/38 for sprockets and as soon as I get another ZZZ rivet link I am going to a 17/38. Nothing wrong with the 18/38, I am just playing around.
DeltaFlyer: Keep up the good work !! Some of us need the education :good2:
George
Quote from: FJscott on April 11, 2014, 12:29:49 PM
Quote from: movenon on April 11, 2014, 08:47:32 AM
Nice start. Keep up the good posts as you go. I am looking into doing some top end work in the future so will be following your project. Good time to upgrade or improve a few things for sure. Last year I did the clutch mod and the clutch feels great. I ordered a shift kit but as of yet haven't installed it, just to busy with other things on the bike. You might look into that as you are going to have everything apart.
If you rebuild the carbs it is a good time to install new Allen head screws and get rid of those JIS screws and get rid of that stock FJ air box with UniPods.
Conversion of the old Yamaha cartrage oil filter system to a spin on filter is nice. I have done all of those and wouldn't think of going back.
Keep up the posts !
Cheers George
George,
are you planning on top end work out of necessity or trying to squeeze more ponies out of her? I am curious because although a lot is mentioned on the forum regarding upgrades to just about every other component to the FJ but there is little regarding the top-end.
usually there is a lot to be gained in working on the heads.
Scott
On any of these old bikes that holds true. Unfortunately the FJ doesn't have a very good port but it can certainly be improved. Much harder to extract meaningful extra power from modern heads....they are, in general, very very good from the Japanese manufactures.
Or...throw this on http://sell.dragbike.com/detail.asp?id=3398&n=Vortex-2-Valve-Head-to-fit-FJ1100 (http://sell.dragbike.com/detail.asp?id=3398&n=Vortex-2-Valve-Head-to-fit-FJ1100) :lol:
Sounds like a great project. I'd love to see some pics inside the engine. Take as many pic as you can. Make it part of the project. They'll aid you greatly when it comes time to reassemble. After a period of time you'll forget how little things go together.
I thought it would take me 2 weeks to assemble mine but it only took 3 days. I brought my computer in the shop and between my pics, the service manual and parts microfiche, http://www.fjowners.com/index.php?board=35.0 (http://www.fjowners.com/index.php?board=35.0) , it went together easy. I did get hung up on electrical without enough pics of the harness but a friend here helped me out with his pics.
Good luck, Joe :hi:
Dropped the engine yesterday with help from a friend, and proceeded with the dismantling...
It came out relatively easily.
(http://i187.photobucket.com/albums/x248/cyclaholic_album/fj1200/fj1200%20rebuild/P1010267_zps7e54db02.jpg)
The top cover came off first...
(http://i187.photobucket.com/albums/x248/cyclaholic_album/fj1200/fj1200%20rebuild/P1010277_zps283784d0.jpg)
then the head...
(http://i187.photobucket.com/albums/x248/cyclaholic_album/fj1200/fj1200%20rebuild/P1010290_zps7004f15c.jpg)
...which was a nightmare to remove. It was stuck solid and didn't want to budge.
There was some corrosion around the nuts and one stud came out of the crank case as the nut didn't budge, which brings me to the first little challenge.
Some of the studs have (had) a protective rubber coating which has long perished and exposed the stud to the elements, hence the corrosion.
Six of the twelve studs are quite corroded as you can see from the pic. I have ordered new nuts from RPM but couldn't find any OEM studs anywhere. I did however find a set of heavy duty aftermarket studs by APE. The difference is that the aftermarket studs don't have any protective coating at all.
I have found a 'paint on' plastic at my local auto parts, it's called "liquid tape" and meant to replace electrical tape. But I don't know how it would go at higher temps. What other options are there to protect new studs? perhaps multiple coats of high temp paint?
Also, how do you grip new studs to thread them into the crank case without damaging the surface?
I haven't begun to dismantle the heads as I don't have a spring compressor yet. I'll probably make one out of a long socket. Here's a bunch of pics that tell the story...
combustion chamber 1...
(http://i187.photobucket.com/albums/x248/cyclaholic_album/fj1200/fj1200%20rebuild/P1010305_zps120b615d.jpg)
combustion chamber 2...
(http://i187.photobucket.com/albums/x248/cyclaholic_album/fj1200/fj1200%20rebuild/P1010304_zpscfc6fc09.jpg)
combustion chamber 3...
(http://i187.photobucket.com/albums/x248/cyclaholic_album/fj1200/fj1200%20rebuild/P1010303_zpsd916b929.jpg)
combustion chamber 4...
(http://i187.photobucket.com/albums/x248/cyclaholic_album/fj1200/fj1200%20rebuild/P1010302_zpsb22a6c8f.jpg)
There's plenty of carbon buildup to clean out, but as far as I can see the valves look serviceable with no signs of overheating or burning. The spark plugs are a nice powdery tan color, which looks healthy.
The pistons look OK also, with no signs of abuse or overheating.
(http://i187.photobucket.com/albums/x248/cyclaholic_album/fj1200/fj1200%20rebuild/P1010296_zpse18abaf3.jpg)(http://i187.photobucket.com/albums/x248/cyclaholic_album/fj1200/fj1200%20rebuild/P1010295_zpsde865c55.jpg)
continued...
There's still some hone marks visible, although they disappear to perfectly smooth further down the bore...
(http://i187.photobucket.com/albums/x248/cyclaholic_album/fj1200/fj1200%20rebuild/P1010293_zpsbd887da7.jpg)
(http://i187.photobucket.com/albums/x248/cyclaholic_album/fj1200/fj1200%20rebuild/P1010291_zpsee1f847e.jpg)
The piston skirts look good too...
(http://i187.photobucket.com/albums/x248/cyclaholic_album/fj1200/fj1200%20rebuild/P1010300_zps5bf7d40e.jpg)
(http://i187.photobucket.com/albums/x248/cyclaholic_album/fj1200/fj1200%20rebuild/P1010299_zpsb487aae7.jpg)
The tale of the tape...
I ran the micrometer over the cams and pistons. Here's the results:
(http://i187.photobucket.com/albums/x248/cyclaholic_album/fj1200/fj1200%20rebuild/P1010310_zps25b6bccb.jpg)
The cams look to be in spec except for the highlighted measurements. The question is, do I replace the cams? Bearing in mind that this is not a sports bike but a commuter/tourer and I am primarily interested in reliability plus longevity. So I'm indifferent to these numbers costing a few horsepower, however will it cause problems for the valves or anything else? ....cams aren't cheap to replace! Since I can always replace them in the future without having to drop the engine out again, are these still useable?
The camshaft bearing journals look nice and shiny with no signs of pitting or spalling. However, I'm waiting for the arrival of a plastigauge set before I can check the bearing oil clearance. The cam chain sprockets look like new.
The pistons are below minimum diameter so will be replaced with one size up, plus a bore & hone.
There was oil weeping from under one corner of the camshaft cover and from where the oil cooler hoses exit the crank case, no surprising with a 25 year old motor. But otherwise every seal is still oil tight.
From what I've seen so far this engine has been well looked after, and there's no signs of abuse, oil starvation, overheating, ect. It's simply showing normal wear through normal use, so I think it's a good place from which to start a rebuild.
Next I'll strip down the head and measure everything, then split the crank case.
Orders have been placed with RPM, and other suppliers, with more yet to be purchased.... stay tune folks, the best is yet to come!
About the carbs...
The previous owner - a long time motorcycle touring enthusiast nd a generally nice guy, had the carbs professionally rebuilt less than a year before I bought the bike. He had all the receipts and the parts that had been replaced, including all four sliders, I think they're called? (those expensive cylindrical things with that thin black diaphragm). So I won't be touching them except for re-jetting as necessary.
I did a balance on them a year ago (they were only very slightly out) and they have stayed perfectly in tune ever since.... one less thing to worry about.
Quote from: Joe Sull on April 11, 2014, 06:05:02 PM
Sounds like a great project. I'd love to see some pics inside the engine. Take as many pic as you can. Make it part of the project. They'll aid you greatly when it comes time to reassemble. After a period of time you'll forget how little things go together.
I thought it would take me 2 weeks to assemble mine but it only took 3 days. I brought my computer in the shop and between my pics, the service manual and parts microfiche, http://www.fjowners.com/index.php?board=35.0 (http://www.fjowners.com/index.php?board=35.0) , it went together easy. I did get hung up on electrical without enough pics of the harness but a friend here helped me out with his pics.
Good luck, Joe :hi:
I enjoyed your build thread. You did a lot of work, more than I will be doing. I'm not in the least concerned in the cosmetics as she is a daily commuter. I'm not even going to paint the motor before reinstalling it. So long as she's mechanically as good as I can possibly keep her, and none of the fairings buzz or rattle, I'm happy.
Cheers,
Gabe.
Quote from: movenon on April 11, 2014, 08:47:32 AM
...
I ordered a shift kit but as of yet haven't installed it, just to busy with other things on the bike. You might look into that as you are going to have everything apart.
...
Keep up the posts !
Cheers George
What does that shift kit do for the bike? ...would you happen to have a link to any info about it?
Cheers,
Gabe.
Quote from: movenon on April 11, 2014, 01:32:26 PM
...advanced the igniton about 3 degrees...
DeltaFlyer: Keep up the good work !! Some of us need the education :good2:
George
Thanks for the words of encouragement, George.
about the timing advance, what difference, if any, did you notice after that mod? I've read good things about it and am considering it if it's worth the effort.
Some more detail pics...
Camshaft bearing surfaces in the head look OK, with just a little bit of scoring, but I can't be sure if it's in spec until after the plastigauge test...
(http://i187.photobucket.com/albums/x248/cyclaholic_album/fj1200/fj1200%20rebuild/P1010289_zpsdb992dfa.jpg)
(http://i187.photobucket.com/albums/x248/cyclaholic_album/fj1200/fj1200%20rebuild/P1010288_zpse060c856.jpg)
(http://i187.photobucket.com/albums/x248/cyclaholic_album/fj1200/fj1200%20rebuild/P1010287_zps10803b09.jpg)
(http://i187.photobucket.com/albums/x248/cyclaholic_album/fj1200/fj1200%20rebuild/P1010286_zps6d7700e7.jpg)
No pics of the bearing caps, but they look to be in the same condition.
Some signs of wear evident on the cam lobes...
(http://i187.photobucket.com/albums/x248/cyclaholic_album/fj1200/fj1200%20rebuild/P1010273_zps2f9e5098.jpg)
(http://i187.photobucket.com/albums/x248/cyclaholic_album/fj1200/fj1200%20rebuild/P1010272_zpsba987568.jpg)
(http://i187.photobucket.com/albums/x248/cyclaholic_album/fj1200/fj1200%20rebuild/P1010271_zps2eb028db.jpg)
(http://i187.photobucket.com/albums/x248/cyclaholic_album/fj1200/fj1200%20rebuild/P1010270_zps83547133.jpg)
Do those cam lobes look like they may be worn through the surface hardening? if so, could I expect accelerated wear rate if I were to continue using them?
Timing chain & sprockets...
(http://i187.photobucket.com/albums/x248/cyclaholic_album/fj1200/fj1200%20rebuild/P1010276_zps0ae5de6a.jpg)
(http://i187.photobucket.com/albums/x248/cyclaholic_album/fj1200/fj1200%20rebuild/P1010275_zpse42bee83.jpg)
Clutch...
(http://i187.photobucket.com/albums/x248/cyclaholic_album/fj1200/fj1200%20rebuild/P1010307_zps10133fc0.jpg)
I've taken the clutch and basket out but I'll go over it tomorrow in more detail and include it in the next post.
If you guys spot something I'm in the process of screwing up, please let me know! I'm learning as I go here, which is why it's going so slow.
I think that's pretty much all I have for now.
Cheers,
Gabe.
Great, Great pics :good2: You are going beyond my experience with this engine work and it's a real treat to see what your doing. I thought that there would be camshaft bearing. What happens if there was ware on the journals, the head would have to be replaced?
Can't wait to see whats next. :good2:
Quote from: Joe Sull on April 13, 2014, 06:55:59 AM
...What happens if there was ware on the journals, the head would have to be replaced?
Can't wait to see whats next. :good2:
Good question.
I don't know.
:unknown:
Quote from: DeltaFlyer on April 13, 2014, 05:40:01 AM
What does that shift kit do for the bike? ...would you happen to have a link to any info about it?
If it's like one of these (https://www.rpmracingca.com/proddetail.asp?prod=RPMRollerShiftkit) it makes shifts a bit more positive, almost a notchy feel.
Hello Gabe, we have discussed using APE cylinder studs in the past, and the engine builders have advised against it.
Here is the thread: http://www.fjowners.com/index.php?topic=479.msg20551 (http://www.fjowners.com/index.php?topic=479.msg20551)
Sand, clean and paint your existing studs and call it a day. Upgraded valve springs, however, are recommended.
All your engine parts, as well a expert advice, is available from Randy @ RPM.
Quote from: andyb on April 13, 2014, 08:41:33 AM
Quote from: DeltaFlyer on April 13, 2014, 05:40:01 AM
What does that shift kit do for the bike? ...would you happen to have a link to any info about it?
If it's like one of these (http://www.rpmracingca.com/proddetail.asp?prod=engine%3AShiftKit&cat=26) it makes shifts a bit more positive, almost a notchy feel.
That's what I have, still on the shelf to be installed. As to if it helps or is any better, I don't know until I install it. Just tying the best with what I have.
Here is a excellent read on a clutch mod. I did this awhile back and would recommend it. Not to expensive or hard to do and if you are in that area it is a good time to inspect the disks anyhow. Wish I would have had the shift kit on hand when I did that but I didn't. Up grading the pressure plate gives a lot better feel at the lever.
http://www.fjowners.com/index.php?topic=1808.0 (http://www.fjowners.com/index.php?topic=1808.0)
http://www.fj1200.info/Home.htm (http://www.fj1200.info/Home.htm)
Thanks keep up the pictures and information. As noted Randy at RPM is probably the best person help you when it comes to engines. The pictures will help him and others to comment on.
When I do my top end I hadn't thought about just pulling the engine completely out but I do see value in it. There are some rubber grommets that I should also replace in engine mounts anyhow.
Keep up the good work, it is appreciated.
george
Gabe, Re: Transmission jumping out of gear; also to consider, along with new shifting forks (a must) is a gear cluster with the dogs backcut....Also available from RPM.
Plug and play...a permanent solution.
Quote from: DeltaFlyer on April 13, 2014, 05:46:20 AM
Quote from: movenon on April 11, 2014, 01:32:26 PM
...advanced the ignition about 3 degrees...
DeltaFlyer: Keep up the good work !! Some of us need the education :good2:
George
Thanks for the words of encouragement, George.
about the timing advance, what difference, if any, did you notice after that mod? I've read good things about it and am considering it if it's worth the effort.
About the timing adjustment. The FJ has 5 degree's built into it I think. There is a +4 degree advance rotor than you can buy. Or you can just slot the rear mounting plate so it is adjustable. I slotted mine go give me 7 degrees of adjustment (near as I can measure). That's where I started.
at +7 degrees it ran worse. That would be 12 degrees total initial advance.
at about +4 degrees it ran OK but would ping slightly depending on the temp, gas quality and load. (9 degree's total initial)
at about +3 degrees it runs the best it ever has. So that is where I am leaving it. (8 degrees total initial).
Can I say it made much difference. For me no. But I don't have a oil temp read out and no way of lap timing it on a track and I don't keep track of my MPG. I can't help but think adding 2 or 3 degrees to a older machine is all that bad. It is an easy mod to do and free and you can always put it back to the original setting. The aftermarket rotors that come up for sale once in a while are set at 4 degrees. You accomplish the same by slotting the rear mounting plate for free.
Here is a couple of links on how to do it. I am happy with just adding +3 degrees in my basically stock engine.
http://www.fjowners.com/index.php?topic=4292.0 (http://www.fjowners.com/index.php?topic=4292.0)
http://www.fj1200.info/carbtuning.htm (http://www.fj1200.info/carbtuning.htm)
The factory service manual indicates that you are OK if you stay within the 2 marks. You need a old timing light.
George
Quote from: Pat Conlon on April 13, 2014, 11:10:54 AM
Hello Gabe, we have discussed using APE cylinder studs in the past, and the engine builders have advised against it.
Here is the thread: http://www.fjowners.com/index.php?topic=479.msg20551 (http://www.fjowners.com/index.php?topic=479.msg20551)
Sand, clean and paint your existing studs and call it a day. Upgraded valve springs, however, are recommended.
All your engine parts, as well a expert advice, is available from Randy @ RPM.
Thanks for the heads up. :i_am_so_happy:
see, that's why this place is such a gold mine.
Quote from: Pat Conlon on April 13, 2014, 01:37:54 PM
Gabe, Re: Transmission jumping out of gear; also to consider, along with new shifting forks (a must) is a gear cluster with the dogs backcut....Also available from RPM.
Plug and play...a permanent solution.
New forks and gear cluster already ordered from Randy. :good2:
Quote from: DeltaFlyer on April 13, 2014, 10:51:53 PM
Quote from: Pat Conlon on April 13, 2014, 01:37:54 PM
Gabe, Re: Transmission jumping out of gear; also to consider, along with new shifting forks (a must) is a gear cluster with the dogs backcut....Also available from RPM.
Plug and play...a permanent solution.
Already ordered the new shifting forks (all three) and the gear cluster from Randy. :good2:
Quote from: movenon on April 13, 2014, 06:57:50 PM
Quote from: DeltaFlyer on April 13, 2014, 05:46:20 AM
Quote from: movenon on April 11, 2014, 01:32:26 PM
...advanced the ignition about 3 degrees...
DeltaFlyer: Keep up the good work !! Some of us need the education :good2:
George
Thanks for the words of encouragement, George.
about the timing advance, what difference, if any, did you notice after that mod? I've read good things about it and am considering it if it's worth the effort.
About the timing adjustment. The FJ has 5 degree's built into it I think. There is a +4 degree advance rotor than you can buy. Or you can just slot the rear mounting plate so it is adjustable. I slotted mine go give me 7 degrees of adjustment (near as I can measure). That's where I started.
at +7 degrees it ran worse. That would be 12 degrees total initial advance.
at about +4 degrees it ran OK but would ping slightly depending on the temp, gas quality and load. (9 degree's total initial)
at about +3 degrees it runs the best it ever has. So that is where I am leaving it. (8 degrees total initial).
Can I say it made much difference. For me no. But I don't have a oil temp read out and no way of lap timing it on a track and I don't keep track of my MPG. I can't help but think adding 2 or 3 degrees to a older machine is all that bad. It is an easy mod to do and free and you can always put it back to the original setting. The aftermarket rotors that come up for sale once in a while are set at 4 degrees. You accomplish the same by slotting the rear mounting plate for free.
Here is a couple of links on how to do it. I am happy with just adding +3 degrees in my basically stock engine.
http://www.fjowners.com/index.php?topic=4292.0 (http://www.fjowners.com/index.php?topic=4292.0)
http://www.fj1200.info/carbtuning.htm (http://www.fj1200.info/carbtuning.htm)
The factory service manual indicates that you are OK if you stay within the 2 marks. You need a old timing light.
George
Thanks for the feedback.
I think I have enough going on at the moment so I'll leave the ignition advance mod alone for now. I can always come back to it once this rebuilt engine is sorted out.
The studs... I'm still unclear on the best procedure.
I have one stud that came out of the crank case and still has the nut attached.
I'll try gripping that one in the vice with the soft jaws and remove the nut. Once that's out, how tight does it have to go back into the crank case? ...and how do I grip it so as to tighten it?
Perhaps I can torque it down using a head nut then somehow grip the stud and remove the nut.
Or should I just replace the stud?
As for the corroded studs, clean and paint them.... but I can do that with them in the crank case, right? i.e. no need to remove them from the crank case?
Sorry for all the newbie questions, I want to get this right the first time.
Cheers,
Gabe.
Remove the stuck nut. Clean the threads.
Double nut the stud....lock the two nuts together. With the nuts locked, use the top nut to torque in the stud.
Now, unlock the nuts....
Quote from: DeltaFlyer on April 13, 2014, 08:00:43 AM
Quote from: Joe Sull on April 13, 2014, 06:55:59 AM
...What happens if there was ware on the journals, the head would have to be replaced?
Can't wait to see whats next. :good2:
Good question.
I don't know.
:unknown:
The head can be line bored. You end up with a couple half moon "plugs" to install -- very similar to the Kawasaki KZ900/1000/650 engines. Very doubtful you will need to tough. Either way, Randy at RPM is yor go-to for advice and parts.
Good job on the write up and good luck on the project!
Chris
Regarding the stud that came out and whether or not to replace it, how hard did it come out? was it about the same amount of torque that was required to remove the others? reason being is if there is ANY chance that stud is compromised I would not chance it and possibly break it off in the crankcase when torqueing it down....replace it. if you don't have a Stud removal tool the double nut method works. the tool allows you to grip the stud closer to the case reducing twist on the stud. they are also a cheap and usefull tool.
Scott
Quote from: DeltaFlyer on April 13, 2014, 11:09:04 PM
The studs... I'm still unclear on the best procedure.
I have one stud that came out of the crank case and still has the nut attached.
I'll try gripping that one in the vice with the soft jaws and remove the nut. Once that's out, how tight does it have to go back into the crank case? ...and how do I grip it so as to tighten it?
Perhaps I can torque it down using a head nut then somehow grip the stud and remove the nut.
Or should I just replace the stud?
As for the corroded studs, clean and paint them.... but I can do that with them in the crank case, right? i.e. no need to remove them from the crank case?
Sorry for all the newbie questions, I want to get this right the first time.
Cheers,
Gabe.
A couple of suggestions that might help.
1 I would vigorously (or power) wire brush the studs then paint them with a high temp paint. It's the plastic that causes most of the rust in the first place.
2 Cardboard egg cartons. They make fantastic storage for small parts you want to keep in order such as shims, valves etc. The FJ also has a lot of small parts that only go in one place and they're good for odd, one off bolts, nuts, screws and fittings. Just identify each piece with biro opposite the part or inside the lid then close it up, write on the box and stick it on high shelf or in a cupboard.
It is one of the few methods I have used that is "Black Hole" proof.
In a month of so's time you will not remember where anything goes. To open up the carton and find everything just where you left it, labelled and in order with nothing missing is great.
These are used by a surprising number of workshops and mechanics, particularly when working on unfamiliar machines.
3 When it comes time to reassemble the motor, tune back in here or do some research on the correct way to tension bolts, the important ones anyway. I don't ever recall it being discussed here.
4 Curb you excitement, a freshly cracked motor will have you wanting to do
everything "while you're in there". Don't get ahead of yourself, such as worrying about the cam journals, as they are unlikely to be a problem anyway. If they are, worry about it then.
Nothing beats the satisfaction of cruising down the road on the engine
you built and no engine ever sounded sweeter. Good luck, you'll get great support here.
Noel
Thanks Noel, sounds like the voice of experience talking.
Quote from: ribbert on April 14, 2014, 09:16:50 AM
A couple of suggestions that might help.
1 I would vigorously (or power) wire brush the studs then paint them with a high temp paint. It's the plastic that causes most of the rust in the first place.
I think that's the way I'll go, and I'll probably replace the one that's out if I can find a new OEM stud, otherwise I'll try to recover the one I have.
Quote
2 Cardboard egg cartons. They make fantastic storage for small parts you want to keep in order such as shims, valves etc. The FJ also has a lot of small parts that only go in one place and they're good for odd, one off bolts, nuts, screws and fittings. Just identify each piece with biro opposite the part or inside the lid then close it up, write on the box and stick it on high shelf or in a cupboard.
It is one of the few methods I have used that is "Black Hole" proof.
In a month of so's time you will not remember where anything goes. To open up the carton and find everything just where you left it, labelled and in order with nothing missing is great.
These are used by a surprising number of workshops and mechanics, particularly when working on unfamiliar machines.
Great idea. I started doing something similar but with zip lock lunch bags. I write on each bag where the part(s) came from and I'm packing the bags in a tub in the order they came off the bike.
Quote
3 When it comes time to reassemble the motor, tune back in here or do some research on the correct way to tension bolts, the important ones anyway. I don't ever recall it being discussed here.
I'll definitely be taking you up on that. :good:
Quote
4 Curb you excitement, a freshly cracked motor will have you wanting to do everything "while you're in there". Don't get ahead of yourself, such as worrying about the cam journals, as they are unlikely to be a problem anyway. If they are, worry about it then.
Nothing beats the satisfaction of cruising down the road on the engine you built and no engine ever sounded sweeter. Good luck, you'll get great support here.
Noel
I'm going over the whole thing in detail mostly because I don't want to miss anything, but also because I'm really enjoying my time in the workshop. It (hopefully) will be a very long time, if ever, that I'll be in there again. It's a bit like going on a big, long distance tour in that sense.
Cheers,
Gabe.
Quote from: FJscott on April 14, 2014, 08:59:05 AM
Regarding the stud that came out and whether or not to replace it, how hard did it come out? was it about the same amount of torque that was required to remove the others? reason being is if there is ANY chance that stud is compromised I would not chance it and possibly break it off in the crankcase when torqueing it down....replace it. if you don't have a Stud removal tool the double nut method works. the tool allows you to grip the stud closer to the case reducing twist on the stud. they are also a cheap and usefull tool.
Scott
Initially it was the same effort to loosen the nut, but then it was quite stiff to unscrew from the crank case, probably half the effort required to loosen it initially. It got progressively easier as it came out but it did require the driver all the way out, it was never loose enough to move by hand alone.
Now I'm worried about it breaking off when torquing the head back on!... I might just replace it if I can find a good one. I'll check with Randy if they're available new. Plus I'll look into that stud tool.
Thanks for the advice, Scott.
Cheers,
Gabe.
Quote from: Pat Conlon on April 14, 2014, 12:48:19 AM
Remove the stuck nut. Clean the threads.
Double nut the stud....lock the two nuts together. With the nuts locked, use the top nut to torque in the stud.
Now, unlock the nuts....
Thanks :good:
seems obvious after someone explains it :blush:
Cheers,
Gabe
Will this type of tool be adequate for tightening a stud back into the crank case?
(http://www.abtoolsonline.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10001/AT858_watermark.JPG)
Cheers,
Gabe
Gabe,
That would be far more than adequate. But as has already been mentioned, 2 nuts & 2 wrenches is all you need. Not to mention the jam nut method will not leave marks on the shank of the bolts that could possibly lead to them breaking. I only use the pictured tool to remove studs that I would be discarding.
Joe
I have to post these first few pics because I have never been so organized in my life and it's quite likely I never will be ever again :lol:
(http://i187.photobucket.com/albums/x248/cyclaholic_album/fj1200/fj1200%20rebuild/P1010311_zps6ec788ea.jpg)
(http://i187.photobucket.com/albums/x248/cyclaholic_album/fj1200/fj1200%20rebuild/P1010312_zps73773974.jpg)
In this next pic check out the stainless steel unit the crank case is sitting on. It's really well made, very solid - all heavy gauge stainless steel, all TIG welded together. It has heavy duty wheels, two of which can be locked, and a heavy duty drawer with ultra smooth guides that allow the entire draw to be opened without falling out. This is a real quality piece of kit.... Can you believe that I fished it out of a dumpster? :shok: I sh*t you not!
(http://i187.photobucket.com/albums/x248/cyclaholic_album/fj1200/fj1200%20rebuild/P1010313_zpsf040b752.jpg)
I went over the clutch pack and every plate measured well within spec, in fact they showed very little sign of wear. The diaphragm spring, however, is looking a little weak. It's almost at the minimum height limit. The good news is that it has no warp whatsoever.
(http://i187.photobucket.com/albums/x248/cyclaholic_album/fj1200/fj1200%20rebuild/P1010320_zps8349bd23.jpg)
You may not be able to tell from the pic but there's a sheet of glass on the timber box. It's a fairly thick piece of reinforced glass I got from a friend that works in glass. He assures me that as far as flatness is concerned it's about as close to perfectly flat as he can get.
The clutch had started to slip above 5000rpm just recently, and by the looks of the first steel plate this is the one where it did all the slipping. There's the tell tale discoloration of heat on the first plate...
(http://i187.photobucket.com/albums/x248/cyclaholic_album/fj1200/fj1200%20rebuild/P1010316_zps2dda3f12.jpg)
(http://i187.photobucket.com/albums/x248/cyclaholic_album/fj1200/fj1200%20rebuild/P1010315_zps3b17fc1d.jpg)
...but it's only very minor, and all the plates, including this one are perfectly flat.
I'm going to do the double spring fix by installing a second brand new OEM spring on top of my one. That should eliminate clutch slip at the lowest cost.
The teeth look to be in good shape with barely a sign of wear which amounts to little more than surface discoloration.
(http://i187.photobucket.com/albums/x248/cyclaholic_album/fj1200/fj1200%20rebuild/P1010322_zps82bf6847.jpg)
That's the clutch done and ready to reinstall once the new diaphragm spring arrives.
The wire is to keep all the pieces together. I've kept all the plates in the order they came out. I'm not sure if it matters but it seemed like a good idea.
(http://i187.photobucket.com/albums/x248/cyclaholic_album/fj1200/fj1200%20rebuild/P1010321_zps00d665ca.jpg)
Next I dismantled and inspected the starter motor. The commutator and brushes all tested in spec. The commutator diameter is right at 28mm and the brushes 11mm each. Checked the commutator for short with the ohmmeter and all is well.
Cleaned a bunch of soot out the end caps, and reassembled with a little grease in the plain bearing end, and it's ready to go back in the engine. The starter was working fine, but now I now exactly what condition it's in, so that's one less thing to worry about.
(http://i187.photobucket.com/albums/x248/cyclaholic_album/fj1200/fj1200%20rebuild/P1010331_zpscc0170d5.jpg)
(http://i187.photobucket.com/albums/x248/cyclaholic_album/fj1200/fj1200%20rebuild/P1010332_zps5f29e89b.jpg)
(http://i187.photobucket.com/albums/x248/cyclaholic_album/fj1200/fj1200%20rebuild/P1010333_zps51a36f47.jpg)
(http://i187.photobucket.com/albums/x248/cyclaholic_album/fj1200/fj1200%20rebuild/P1010335_zps3b66997a.jpg)
(http://i187.photobucket.com/albums/x248/cyclaholic_album/fj1200/fj1200%20rebuild/P1010336_zpsb6ed2405.jpg)
(http://i187.photobucket.com/albums/x248/cyclaholic_album/fj1200/fj1200%20rebuild/P1010337_zps639df482.jpg)
(http://i187.photobucket.com/albums/x248/cyclaholic_album/fj1200/fj1200%20rebuild/P1010338_zps30ca3008.jpg)
(http://i187.photobucket.com/albums/x248/cyclaholic_album/fj1200/fj1200%20rebuild/P1010339_zps91d73db9.jpg)
I removed the alternator and found that the shaft seal is leaking so will need to be replaced.
(http://i187.photobucket.com/albums/x248/cyclaholic_album/fj1200/fj1200%20rebuild/P1010341_zpsac2398eb.jpg)
Uncapped the alternator, cleaned and inspected. Everything looks OK.
(http://i187.photobucket.com/albums/x248/cyclaholic_album/fj1200/fj1200%20rebuild/P1010344_zps98cae09e.jpg)
That's it for now. Next I'm going to make a valve spring compressor and strip down the head.
I'll probably have another update in a couple of days
Cheers,
Gabe
I would replace the stock pressure plate with an XJR unit. Easy mod and feels a lot better. Nice pictures thanks ! Yea and I was going to comment on that SS stand. Good score. :good2:
George
What is the difference between the FJ & XJR pressure plate?
Randy - RPM
While you got that alternator apart, it's a good time to replace that voltage regulator with RPM's Racetech unit.
Quote from: racerrad8 on April 14, 2014, 09:36:13 PM
What is the difference between the FJ & XJR pressure plate?
Randy - RPM
Ok please revise that to the FJR ? "clutch spring" http://www.rpmracingca.com/proddetail.asp?prod=Clutch%3AClutchSpring&cat=39 (http://www.rpmracingca.com/proddetail.asp?prod=Clutch%3AClutchSpring&cat=39) :good2:
Thanks for the correction Randy.
George
Quote from: FJ_Hooligan on April 14, 2014, 09:42:47 PM
While you got that alternator apart, it's a good time to replace that voltage regulator with RPM's Racetech unit.
But this one is working OK, why would I replace it?
Quote from: movenon on April 14, 2014, 11:33:25 PM
Quote from: racerrad8 on April 14, 2014, 09:36:13 PM
What is the difference between the FJ & XJR pressure plate?
Randy - RPM
Ok please revise that to the FJR ? "clutch spring" http://www.rpmracingca.com/proddetail.asp?prod=Clutch%3AClutchSpring&cat=39 (http://www.rpmracingca.com/proddetail.asp?prod=Clutch%3AClutchSpring&cat=39) :good2:
Thanks for the correction Randy.
George
Yeah, that's the one I ordered. I'm also replacing the bottom narrow fiber disk with a wide one.
I may also get the pressure plate machined and replace the top narrow disk with a wide one, if it's a straightforward machining job. I'll talk to the machinist when I take the head and cylinder block to get done and see what he says.
That's a good mod IMO. I replaced my spring (and disk) from Randy and didn't realize how crappy the old spring was until I did it. I also doubled up the spring with the old one but didn't like how hard it was to use the clutch so pulled it out and just went with the new spring. Works great, has a good feel at the lever.
You are making good time on this project. :good2:
George
Quote from: DeltaFlyer on April 14, 2014, 11:55:05 PM
Quote from: FJ_Hooligan on April 14, 2014, 09:42:47 PM
While you got that alternator apart, it's a good time to replace that voltage regulator with RPM's Racetech unit.
But this one is working OK, why would I replace it?
The voltage regulator is a very common failure point on the FJ. The normal failure mode is over voltage which leads to very short battery life. Worse though, is it is not always a consistent failure - has been known to test well in the drive way or garage, but later during the ride spike to over 15 volts -- maybe due to heat? vibration? both?
Wow, screaming thru this. Great pics. :good2:
Quote from: DeltaFlyer on April 14, 2014, 11:55:05 PM
Quote from: FJ_Hooligan on April 14, 2014, 09:42:47 PM
While you got that alternator apart, it's a good time to replace that voltage regulator with RPM's Racetech unit.
But this one is working OK, why would I replace it?
Okay, then don't.
Quote from: FJ_Hooligan on April 15, 2014, 10:20:21 PM
Quote from: DeltaFlyer on April 14, 2014, 11:55:05 PM
Quote from: FJ_Hooligan on April 14, 2014, 09:42:47 PM
While you got that alternator apart, it's a good time to replace that voltage regulator with RPM's Racetech unit.
But this one is working OK, why would I replace it?
Okay, then don't.
LOL.
Two different mentalities here. But it's the kind of thing that when it goes bad, kills a battery and can strand you. It's just a matter of waiting until it goes bad, or replacing it before it does. Mine went bad. Lost a battery. It happens. So: pay now or later? If you do it now, you don't have to pull it apart again later, is the idea...
Started working on the head today. Stripped down the valves, bagged and tagged along with their corresponding bits....
(http://i187.photobucket.com/albums/x248/cyclaholic_album/fj1200/fj1200%20rebuild/P1010369_zpsfb1a7bc4.jpg)
Had to make a valve compressor... very rough but it works well enough.
(http://i187.photobucket.com/albums/x248/cyclaholic_album/fj1200/fj1200%20rebuild/P1010362_zps6a478cf3.jpg)
Used the very powerful rare earth magnet out of a trashed hard disk to get the buckets and other bits out...
(http://i187.photobucket.com/albums/x248/cyclaholic_album/fj1200/fj1200%20rebuild/P1010360_zps71b49989.jpg)
They look OK. They were nice and snug with no perceivable side play.
(http://i187.photobucket.com/albums/x248/cyclaholic_album/fj1200/fj1200%20rebuild/P1010359_zps161ea91d.jpg)
Then I spent some quality time with the dremmel and a bunch of little wire brushes...
(http://i187.photobucket.com/albums/x248/cyclaholic_album/fj1200/fj1200%20rebuild/P1010363_zps029ad527.jpg)
(http://i187.photobucket.com/albums/x248/cyclaholic_album/fj1200/fj1200%20rebuild/P1010364_zpsd9cf174b.jpg)
(http://i187.photobucket.com/albums/x248/cyclaholic_album/fj1200/fj1200%20rebuild/P1010367_zps037ff3d4.jpg)
(http://i187.photobucket.com/albums/x248/cyclaholic_album/fj1200/fj1200%20rebuild/P1010368_zpsdd10c762.jpg)
(http://i187.photobucket.com/albums/x248/cyclaholic_album/fj1200/fj1200%20rebuild/P1010365_zpsed8c7c84.jpg)
(http://i187.photobucket.com/albums/x248/cyclaholic_album/fj1200/fj1200%20rebuild/P1010366_zpsa326655a.jpg)
Cleaning the combustion chambers and valves is a loaborious, tedious, filthy job. I only got through two chambers and exactly one exhaust valve.
I should have the rest of the cleaning done tomorrow and then the head and cylinder block will be ready for the machine shop once the parts arrive.
Cheers,
Gab.
:good2:
That is impressive work, glad to see the progress.
Thanks for posting.
Dan
I went off and did a bunch of searching & reading and I've decided to go with the voltage regulator upgrade. Thanks for the heads up on that, I was unaware of the issue. Worth doing for the sake of reliability.
I'll probably also go with the RPM shift kit after reading about the sort of improvement it makes to shifting. Turns out it's not the shift kit I thought it was, but a much better one.... that seems to be the trend with all of Randy's stuff at RPM.
Quote from: DeltaFlyer on April 16, 2014, 06:40:51 PM
......... that seems to be the trend with all of Randy's stuff at RPM.
Now you're catching on.....
Also, plan on getting his upgraded Viton valve seals.
Quote from: DeltaFlyer on April 16, 2014, 06:40:51 PM
I went off and did a bunch of searching & reading and I've decided to go with the voltage regulator upgrade. Thanks for the heads up on that, I was unaware of the issue. Worth doing for the sake of reliability.
You're welcome. Occasionally I'm more than just noise. :-)
Quote from: Pat Conlon on April 16, 2014, 07:28:10 PM
Quote from: DeltaFlyer on April 16, 2014, 06:40:51 PM
......... that seems to be the trend with all of Randy's stuff at RPM.
Now you're catching on.....
Also, plan on getting his upgraded Viton valve seals.
They're already ordered. :i_am_so_happy:
I am still running a stock regulator. No problems noted. Battery is a sealed unit. I might recommend you give some thought to installing a small digital volt meter. Not a requirement but it tells me what the charging voltage is, gives me an indication of a weak battery and depending on where you tap the voltage it will tell if you have dropped a fuse. Mine is like this one but there are other designs.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/DC-0-30V-Voltmeter-LED-Panel-3-Digital-Display-Volt-Voltage-Meter-for-Motorcycle-/131095052802?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item1e85dfc202 (http://www.ebay.com/itm/DC-0-30V-Voltmeter-LED-Panel-3-Digital-Display-Volt-Voltage-Meter-for-Motorcycle-/131095052802?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item1e85dfc202)
George
I put an $8 brush wheel on the 5" bench grinder and cleaned the valves in about 30 minutes. Works really well...
(http://i187.photobucket.com/albums/x248/cyclaholic_album/P1010376_zps77d92a3d.jpg)
Then I threw together a rough but effective tool for checking the valves...
(http://i187.photobucket.com/albums/x248/cyclaholic_album/P1010379_zpsda7a3eb6.jpg)
(http://i187.photobucket.com/albums/x248/cyclaholic_album/P1010380_zps4e73c56a.jpg)
(http://i187.photobucket.com/albums/x248/cyclaholic_album/P1010371_zps5db818c6.jpg)
(http://i187.photobucket.com/albums/x248/cyclaholic_album/P1010373_zps546b4a16.jpg)
checking runout...
(http://i187.photobucket.com/albums/x248/cyclaholic_album/P1010390_zps78e26165.jpg)
(http://i187.photobucket.com/albums/x248/cyclaholic_album/P1010392_zps29dcce3f.jpg)
All the valves look to be in in spec and serviceable.
Finished de-carboning the head, then hit the head and cylinder block with degreaser and pressure washer...
(http://i187.photobucket.com/albums/x248/cyclaholic_album/P1010383_zpsca3d35e7.jpg)
(http://i187.photobucket.com/albums/x248/cyclaholic_album/P1010387_zps34063c8f.jpg)
(http://i187.photobucket.com/albums/x248/cyclaholic_album/P1010382_zpsbb010624.jpg)
That's it for now with the head & block. I'll put them aside until the piston kit, new valve guides, and seals arrive, then the whole lot can go off to get machined up.
Next I'll be splitting the crank case and finally getting stuck into the reason why I started this job in the first place.
Cheers,
Gabe.
Quote from: movenon on April 17, 2014, 10:53:29 AM
I am still running a stock regulator. No problems noted. Battery is a sealed unit. I might recommend you give some thought to installing a small digital volt meter. Not a requirement but it tells me what the charging voltage is, gives me an indication of a weak battery and depending on where you tap the voltage it will tell if you have dropped a fuse. Mine is like this one but there are other designs.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/DC-0-30V-Voltmeter-LED-Panel-3-Digital-Display-Volt-Voltage-Meter-for-Motorcycle-/131095052802?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item1e85dfc202 (http://www.ebay.com/itm/DC-0-30V-Voltmeter-LED-Panel-3-Digital-Display-Volt-Voltage-Meter-for-Motorcycle-/131095052802?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item1e85dfc202)
George
That's a good idea.
I was thinking about setting up an oil pressure gauge by putting a sensor in at the oil pressure testing point on the crank case, but I haven't looked into it yet.
Cheers,
Gabe.
I havn't done anything with the oil system yet other than install the spin on adapter and changing the oil often.... I wouldn't mind having an oil temp meter. But that's in the future. Keep up the good work and pictures.
George
Work and family commitments have kept me away from the bike lately but I've managed to find some time this weekend.
I didn't really do much except some cleaning and checking oil clearances with the plastigauge.
Camshaft clearances were first...
The bearing surfaces must be clean and free of oil...
(http://i187.photobucket.com/albums/x248/cyclaholic_album/fj1200/fj1200%20rebuild/P1010397_zps63c68d7a.jpg) (http://s187.photobucket.com/user/cyclaholic_album/media/fj1200/fj1200%20rebuild/P1010397_zps63c68d7a.jpg.html)
I really like this Plastigauge system (no, I'm not getting paid to endorse it, would gladly take the money if they offered it tho :D)....
(http://i187.photobucket.com/albums/x248/cyclaholic_album/fj1200/fj1200%20rebuild/P1010398_zps0252e341.jpg) (http://s187.photobucket.com/user/cyclaholic_album/media/fj1200/fj1200%20rebuild/P1010398_zps0252e341.jpg.html)
First you cut the necessary number of pieces to size. I hold them in place with a tiny little spot of general purpose grease.
(http://i187.photobucket.com/albums/x248/cyclaholic_album/fj1200/fj1200%20rebuild/P1010399_zps73544ca2.jpg) (http://s187.photobucket.com/user/cyclaholic_album/media/fj1200/fj1200%20rebuild/P1010399_zps73544ca2.jpg.html)
(http://i187.photobucket.com/albums/x248/cyclaholic_album/fj1200/fj1200%20rebuild/P1010400_zps19c6147c.jpg) (http://s187.photobucket.com/user/cyclaholic_album/media/fj1200/fj1200%20rebuild/P1010400_zps19c6147c.jpg.html)
The reason they are off to the side rather than sitting on top is because i wanted to avoid the hole in the bearing cap and get the full width surface instead...
(http://i187.photobucket.com/albums/x248/cyclaholic_album/fj1200/fj1200%20rebuild/P1010403_zps5af03c4e.jpg) (http://s187.photobucket.com/user/cyclaholic_album/media/fj1200/fj1200%20rebuild/P1010403_zps5af03c4e.jpg.html)
Then the caps are torqued in. I did this in two stages for the cams...
(http://i187.photobucket.com/albums/x248/cyclaholic_album/fj1200/fj1200%20rebuild/P1010406_zpsc4ae6851.jpg) (http://s187.photobucket.com/user/cyclaholic_album/media/fj1200/fj1200%20rebuild/P1010406_zpsc4ae6851.jpg.html)
*NOTE-It's really important to NOT rotate the cams while the bearing caps have been torqued in. Apart from invalidating the Plastigauge reading there's also no lubricant in there.
The caps are removed and the Plastigauge is squashed on the bearing surface. The clearance can be measured by matching against the scale provided...
(http://i187.photobucket.com/albums/x248/cyclaholic_album/fj1200/fj1200%20rebuild/P1010408_zps5bf090c2.jpg) (http://s187.photobucket.com/user/cyclaholic_album/media/fj1200/fj1200%20rebuild/P1010408_zps5bf090c2.jpg.html)
And the results for both cams...
(http://i187.photobucket.com/albums/x248/cyclaholic_album/fj1200/fj1200%20rebuild/P1010412_zps61bea44a.jpg) (http://s187.photobucket.com/user/cyclaholic_album/media/fj1200/fj1200%20rebuild/P1010412_zps61bea44a.jpg.html)
The results indicate that the intake cam is OK but the exhaust is worn beyond limits. This result plus the wear already measured in lobe heights and journal diameters being at (or beyond) wear limits means that I'll be replacing the cams. I suppose I could get away with replacing just the exhaust cam, but if I'm replacing one I'd rather do both.
So, stock cams or aftermarket performance cams?....
I'm building primarily for reliability and longevity so I'm leaning towards stock cams, but do you think it would be worthwhile installing slotted cam sprockets and dialing in (degree-ing) the stock cams? are there any performance/reliability/efficiency gains to be had there?
.....................................
Crankshaft main bearings...
First ensure the bearing surfaces are nice and clean, including free of oil...
(http://i187.photobucket.com/albums/x248/cyclaholic_album/fj1200/fj1200%20rebuild/P1010413_zps94c72f6a.jpg) (http://s187.photobucket.com/user/cyclaholic_album/media/fj1200/fj1200%20rebuild/P1010413_zps94c72f6a.jpg.html)
(http://i187.photobucket.com/albums/x248/cyclaholic_album/fj1200/fj1200%20rebuild/P1010415_zps71fec6f4.jpg) (http://s187.photobucket.com/user/cyclaholic_album/media/fj1200/fj1200%20rebuild/P1010415_zps71fec6f4.jpg.html)
Set up the Plastigauge...
I did all five bearings, this is #1....
(http://i187.photobucket.com/albums/x248/cyclaholic_album/fj1200/fj1200%20rebuild/P1010414_zpsce91daf2.jpg) (http://s187.photobucket.com/user/cyclaholic_album/media/fj1200/fj1200%20rebuild/P1010414_zpsce91daf2.jpg.html)
Torque down the crank case, only bolts 1 to 10 necessary for this procedure. i torqued them down on three stages...
(http://i187.photobucket.com/albums/x248/cyclaholic_album/fj1200/fj1200%20rebuild/P1010417_zps9558c3df.jpg) (http://s187.photobucket.com/user/cyclaholic_album/media/fj1200/fj1200%20rebuild/P1010417_zps9558c3df.jpg.html)
Then remove the bolts and carefully expose the squashed plastigauge. this is bearing #1....
(http://i187.photobucket.com/albums/x248/cyclaholic_album/fj1200/fj1200%20rebuild/P1010418_zpsdca99681.jpg) (http://s187.photobucket.com/user/cyclaholic_album/media/fj1200/fj1200%20rebuild/P1010418_zpsdca99681.jpg.html)
And the results...
(http://i187.photobucket.com/albums/x248/cyclaholic_album/fj1200/fj1200%20rebuild/P1010419_zpsd1d437e1.jpg) (http://s187.photobucket.com/user/cyclaholic_album/media/fj1200/fj1200%20rebuild/P1010419_zpsd1d437e1.jpg.html)
They're all worn beyond spec so I'll be replacing the bearing caps.
Next will be the conrod big ends, and I suspect they'll be at or beyond limits as well. Once they're measured I'll finalize the list of parts to order.
Cheers,
Gabe.
Hold on, Gabe (aka Mr. Big Spender), Don't be so quick to buy those new cams. My intuition tells me that the cam material is much harder than the aluminum in the cylinder head. So, would 'new' cams be any better? What are the diameters of the journals vs. spec.?
Next, it has been rumored that some engine builders think the cams may be too tight and occasionally seize & break under certain conditions; a bit more clearance would allow more oil space, and perhaps prevent the described seizure and resulting destruction.
Now, if you want to upgrade to aftermarket hi-po cams, that's another story, but don't delude yourself that the journals are worn out on the cams and therefore you need to buy hi-po cams to get new journals. Big end & small end inserts worn? Sure, and they're relatively cheap to replace, since you're already in that far.
Free advice, worth all you paid for it ...
Otherwise, you seem to be doing a bang-up job and documenting it very well for yourself and all of us. Thanks!
You don't need new cams....they look fine. Also...what do you mean by replacing the "bearing caps"? Are you talking about the bearing shells? I'd check to make sure the big end of the rods are round.....I have personally seen them all over the place which requires cutting the cap and sizing the big end ID.
Quote from: JMR on April 27, 2014, 08:14:21 AM
You don't need new cams....they look fine. Also...what do you mean by replacing the "bearing caps"? Are you talking about the bearing shells? I'd check to make sure the big end of the rods are round.....I have personally seen them all over the place which requires cutting the cap and sizing the big end ID.
Yeah, sorry, I meant the bearing
shells.... where the f*** did I get 'caps' from? LOL!
I'll take a look at the big ends today.
Quote from: simi_ed on April 27, 2014, 01:36:22 AM
Hold on, Gabe (aka Mr. Big Spender), Don't be so quick to buy those new cams. My intuition tells me that the cam material is much harder than the aluminum in the cylinder head. So, would 'new' cams be any better? What are the diameters of the journals vs. spec.?
Next, it has been rumored that some engine builders think the cams may be too tight and occasionally seize & break under certain conditions; a bit more clearance would allow more oil space, and perhaps prevent the described seizure and resulting destruction.
Now, if you want to upgrade to aftermarket hi-po cams, that's another story, but don't delude yourself that the journals are worn out on the cams and therefore you need to buy hi-po cams to get new journals. Big end & small end inserts worn? Sure, and they're relatively cheap to replace, since you're already in that far.
Free advice, worth all you paid for it ...
Otherwise, you seem to be doing a bang-up job and documenting it very well for yourself and all of us. Thanks!
You're right, of course, I didn't take enough time to think it through. Posted tired at the end of a long shift and a bunch of work on the bike. Heck, I had already checked the journal diameters and knew they're all in spec when I posted that (results posted back on page 2 of this thread).... feeling a bit foolish as a result.
I also had a chat with my machinist earlier today, he's an old school guy that has built more high performance engines than I've had hot dinners, and he basically said the same as you. The cams are fine since I'm building for reliability and longevity, not increased performance, and being an air cooled motor the oil clearances being toward the larger end of the scale are not necessarily a bad thing.
Conclusion - these cams are going back in as is, so I guess I'll just have to continue spending all my money on wimmin and drink instead. :crazy:
Quote from: DeltaFlyer on April 28, 2014, 11:49:58 AM
Quote from: simi_ed on April 27, 2014, 01:36:22 AM
Hold on, Gabe (aka Mr. Big Spender), Don't be so quick to buy those new cams. My intuition tells me that the cam material is much harder than the aluminum in the cylinder head. So, would 'new' cams be any better? What are the diameters of the journals vs. spec.?
Next, it has been rumored that some engine builders think the cams may be too tight and occasionally seize & break under certain conditions; a bit more clearance would allow more oil space, and perhaps prevent the described seizure and resulting destruction.
Now, if you want to upgrade to aftermarket hi-po cams, that's another story, but don't delude yourself that the journals are worn out on the cams and therefore you need to buy hi-po cams to get new journals. Big end & small end inserts worn? Sure, and they're relatively cheap to replace, since you're already in that far.
Free advice, worth all you paid for it ...
Otherwise, you seem to be doing a bang-up job and documenting it very well for yourself and all of us. Thanks!
You're right, of course, I didn't take enough time to think it through. Posted tired at the end of a long shift and a bunch of work on the bike. Heck, I had already checked the journal diameters and knew they're all in spec when I posted that (results posted back on page 2 of this thread).... feeling a bit foolish as a result.
I also had a chat with my machinist earlier today, he's an old school guy that has built more high performance engines than I've had hot dinners, and he basically said the same as you. The cams are fine since I'm building for reliability and longevity, not increased performance, and being an air cooled motor the oil clearances being toward the larger end of the scale are not necessarily a bad thing.
Conclusion - these cams are going back in as is, so I guess I'll just have to continue spending all my money on wimmin and drink instead. :crazy:
:i_am_so_happy:
I went through the big ends today and surprisingly they are all in spec for oil clearance, so I lubed them an torqued them back up.
All the shells looked typically like this one...
(http://i187.photobucket.com/albums/x248/cyclaholic_album/fj1200/fj1200%20rebuild/P1010425_zps221797dd.jpg) (http://s187.photobucket.com/user/cyclaholic_album/media/fj1200/fj1200%20rebuild/P1010425_zps221797dd.jpg.html)
I plastigauged them at 12 o'clock where the wear is most evident.
(http://i187.photobucket.com/albums/x248/cyclaholic_album/fj1200/fj1200%20rebuild/P1010427_zps43ab63d8.jpg) (http://s187.photobucket.com/user/cyclaholic_album/media/fj1200/fj1200%20rebuild/P1010427_zps43ab63d8.jpg.html)
One less thing to worry about.
Cheers,
Gabe,
Guys, what do you recommend for sealing the crank case halves?
It's a liquid gasket, is there any particular product that stands out above the rest for our application?
Yamabond. Not too much, as it peels off and clogs your oil pickup screen.
Randy @ RPM has pictures of this on engines he has worked on....
Here is all I will ever use; Permatex Ultra Black (http://www.permatex.com/products-2/product-categories/gasketing/gasket-makers/permatex-ultra-black-maximum-oil-resistance-rtv-silicone-gasket-maker-detail)
I have seen a lot of different stuff used with good & bad results.
Randy - RPM
Quote from: racerrad8 on May 06, 2014, 06:37:15 PM
Here is all I will ever use; Permatex Ultra Black (http://www.permatex.com/products-2/product-categories/gasketing/gasket-makers/permatex-ultra-black-maximum-oil-resistance-rtv-silicone-gasket-maker-detail)
I have seen a lot of different stuff used with good & bad results.
Randy - RPM
I've probably had as many engines (all sorts) apart as Randy and over a much more diverse range of applications and I swear by this stuff. Like Randy I have tried and seen used all manner of products but this is the best. Also great if you need pull it apart again at some point.
Use sparingly.
As it also says, it is a gasket maker. I use it a lot on engines where gaskets are no longer available. Anyone that has hand made fibre gaskets knows what a PIA that is.
Noel
Thanks guys. Permatex ultra black it is then.
My RPM order came in the other day but I've been quite busy lately and have had no time for the project. I unpacked it on Friday and the very first impression I got was just how well packed everything was! I buy quite a bit of stuff online and nothing has ever arrived packed anywhere near as well as this. Seriously. Someone spent a lot of time and care packing this order. Needless to say everything was present and accounted for, with an itemized packing list included. I didn't take pics of all the goodies (I was a bit too excited and forgot) but I'll post a few next time..... and I needed a second box when it came time to put it all away because I couldn't figure out how to re-pack it back into the same box as it was LOL!
Thank you, Randy. :i_am_so_happy: :drinks:
...........................................
I wire brushed the head studs and they came up nice and shiny, then I hit them with several coats of cold galvanizing paint.
(http://i187.photobucket.com/albums/x248/cyclaholic_album/fj1200/fj1200%20rebuild/CAM002601_zps61342d0d.jpg)
I think I'm about ready to start the reassembly. Except for a few bits that haven't arrived yet, like the Permax Ultra Black, and the cylinder head isn't back from the machinist for another week.... and the output shaft seal I forgot to order from RPM :dash1:
I have a question about those thin orange o-rings between the cylinder block and the crankcase, are they absolutely necessary? the joint has a gasket, so what purpose do those o-rings serve? I ask because I don't have new ones and the old ones pretty much disintegrated during disassembly. So can I get away with leaving them out?
Cheers,
Gabe.
Quote from: DeltaFlyer on May 17, 2014, 08:13:25 PM
I have a question about those thin orange o-rings between the cylinder block and the crankcase, are they absolutely necessary? the joint has a gasket, so what purpose do those o-rings serve? I ask because I don't have new ones and the old ones pretty much disintegrated during disassembly. So can I get away with leaving them out?
Cheers,
Gabe.
....anyone?
Just a quick update. The bike is nearly back together again, just waiting on the new valve shims to finish the top end.
Engine back in bike, new oil radiator is in, just have to hook up the electricals, ignition, ect. then fit the exhaust.
Reassembly went very smoothly, which means that I probably made a monumental stuffup that I will discover when I try to start her up and everything goes pear shaped. :wacko3:
I should be firing up the 'new' engine late next week.