Greetings. I'm in the process of changing out the chain and sprockets on my 86 ambulance. The front sprocket nut is STUCK. It doesn't have the metal tab type retainer so that is not an issue (well it is and I have one on order). It looks like the previous owner or maintenance tech used red loctite as there are some red stains around the shaft thread nut interface. I tried a long cheater bar and almost pulled the bike off the center stand. What do you think? Take a soldering torch and heat the nut up to loosen the red loctite?
Sounds like you've got a tough nut to crack! :lol: 1/2" air impact gun with a 36mm socket should pop that right off!
Cap'n Ron. . .
I sure someone will help. but I personally would not go near the shaft with heat. If it even begins to normalize, it's gonna hurt.
I would try a chisel and make angular blows on the nut.
Your really haven fun now, Hey
Quote from: Capn Ron on March 06, 2014, 04:06:47 PM
Sounds like you've got a tough nut to crack! :lol: 1/2" air impact gun with a 36mm socket should pop that right off!
Cap'n Ron. . .
+1
That's how I take mine off.
If you don't have access to air impact, put the bike back on the ground and have a helper sit on it with the brakes on. You should be able to get it off with a breaker-bar then.
(Leave the bike in gear)
Ok, I'll try the impact wrench then proceed to the brakes on with someone sitting on the bike. Thanks. BTW I'm almost getting to old to have my nuts cracked. :bad:
Put a 2 X 4 in the rear wheel to keep it from turning. Do not use the gears, brakes are a waste of time. A little heat would help but just with a heat gun, no torch. That nut is only suppose to be on to around 60 ft lbs.
Grinding the face of the socket will help get a better bite on the nut.
(http://fjowners.com/gallery/6/1651_01_10_13_7_59_20.jpeg)
If you are in Boise or Meridian you can use mine :).
It will come off.
George
Thanks for the offer George. I'm actually in Middelton. I do not have an impact socket that large so I'll go by the tool store tomorrow and pick one up.
I couldn't get a 2X4 thru the wheel but did use a ratchet extension that fit. Had the wife on the bike, off the stand, on the brakes with the ratchet extension and still could not break it free using a breaker bar. I think it is the red loctite that is doing what it is suppose to do.
I guess this is a dumb question, but WHY do you have RED Loctite on the nut? I have a locking tab that prevents the c/s nut from loosening. Randy sells the locking tab. http://rpmracingca.com/proddetail.asp?prod=M%2FC%3ASprocketLock (http://rpmracingca.com/proddetail.asp?prod=M%2FC%3ASprocketLock) I'd recommend getting one.
Air impact shold do the trick, regardless of RED Loctite.
Totally dumb. I should have mentioned this is a new bike for me. I'm have a lot of the bike apart checking things. The sprockets are worn so I will change them out and a new chain. The bike did not have the retainer thing (which I have on order) so I'm guessing the previous owner or tech used red loctite.
Quote from: Aeroaddict on March 06, 2014, 07:46:01 PM
Thanks for the offer George. I'm actually in Middelton. I do not have an impact socket that large so I'll go by the tool store tomorrow and pick one up.
I couldn't get a 2X4 thru the wheel but did use a ratchet extension that fit. Had the wife on the bike, off the stand, on the brakes with the ratchet extension and still could not break it free using a breaker bar. I think it is the red loctite that is doing what it is suppose to do.
Let me know if you want me to help. I have the socket. I have a chain riviting tool etc if you need to use it. I am located in Meridian closest nav point in Eagle and Overland. Middelton is easy.
George
If it has red thread lock then you will need some heat to soften it. If you have a heat gun then you can slowly heat the nut (and shaft) in gradual steps till it breaks loose. Apply the heat gun for a few minutes, try to loosen it. Then a few more minutes, try again, a few more minutes etc... This will get it warm enough to soften the thread lock with out getting the metals hot enough to alter the metallurgy. Take your time to heat it in steps, it will work loose and then you can clean that %$#& :ireful: off.
I just had a thought. If the bike is running, you can heat up the shaft by taking it for a ride and getting the engine up to full temp. Then try to remove the nut. The oil temp will heat the shaft and nut while you have some fun. It might be enough temp to loosen it. Then use the heat gun in steps till it comes off.
It has been my experience in getting red locktite nuts off you will have to apply enough heat to soften the locktite plastic adheasive. I do this by using a propane torch. Apply the heat around the nut not on the shaft. I would also recommend an air impact wrench. It might take more than one try. Good luck. Dave
Quote from: Aeroaddict on March 06, 2014, 08:35:34 PM
........ so I'm guessing the previous owner or tech used red loctite.
Lots of great suggestions here for releasing red loctite. However, he is only assuming it's been used because it's hard to crack. If it had been used it should be obvious.
This nut is disproportionately shallow for it's size and only has about a third of the depth a nut that size would normally have, it can't be that tight.
The problem with breaker bars is spring or flex. You would be amazed how much torque is lost in this springiness in the bar.
If using heat as an aid to loosening the nut (assuming there is no loctite) anything short of oxy, you may as well breath heavily on it. Even propane does not get hot enough.
Forget about brakes (as George suggested) and shove something through the back wheel resting against the swing arm to stop it turning. (wood is better than steel)
An impact gun is you best bet but do not use it to tighten the nut when refitting.
While I generally don't advocate the use of "shifters" (adjustable wrenches?) this is one application I find it works fine. I use a giant shifter. On a nut this size you can get good purchase and the rigid handle is what makes the difference, no flex.
Most people don't have a giant shifter so the impact gun or a length of pipe over the breaker bar handle is your best chance.
Knowing how shallow those nuts are I can't help but feel the problem is your choice of tool rather than the nut being ridiculously tight. It can't be
that tight.
You could also use a cold chisel and hammer to break it loose.
Loctite (if it's there) is to stop the nut working it's way loose while in operation, not make it impossible to remove. The right tool and technique will have it off in a jiffy
Noel.
All Great suggestions, thanks. The reason I believe it has loctite on it is the fact that I can see red stuff around the threads and some on the face of the nut. Again, can't verify the use of loctite until I have the nut off.
Yes, cheater bars do flex. I like the ride it around to warn everything up. I'll do that then hit it with the impact gun.
Quote from: ribbert on March 07, 2014, 05:44:31 AM
You would be amazed how much torque is lost in this springiness in the bar...
You might be amazed to find no torque is LOST except when the bar is actually deflecting... once the bar is bent and you're putting say 50 pounds of force on the handle 2 feet from the socket, you are applying 100ftlb of torque. The pointer style torque wrenched work on the principle that a given amount of torque will deflect the bar a precise amount... more torque = more deflection... but the torque is still only countered by the socket and thus the nut or bolt your twisting.
What is lost is the "impact" of suddenly ramping the torque up... that's the purpose of the impact gun.
Frank
Quote from: Flynt on March 07, 2014, 09:08:16 AM
You might be amazed to find no torque is LOST except when the bar is actually deflecting...
Frank
No, I wouldn't be amazed at all and theoretically you are correct. However my comments were more to do with the practical application of force with the available tools. A rigid bar will get better results than a springy one and neither (as I mentioned) as effective as an impact gun, or chisel, for the reasons you outlined.
If you are talking a progressive application of force to a bar you are correct but more often than not we jerk or hit the end of the bar to momentarily increase the torque.
If you lunge on the end of a bar with your body weight, a percentage of that ramped up torque will dissipate into the bar flex, if the bar is rigid 100% of it goes to the tool.
Noel
You can arguably put the load on a big flexshaft bar and then tap at it with a little hammer to good effect.
If there's red locktite on it, it doesn't matter, it won't be coming off without heat. Significant heat. There's a reason why it's called "permanent" threadlocker. Wouldn't surprise me in the least that a prior owner didn't know this, and put you in a very difficult place.
If that is what is on it, your options are a bit limiting. Put a torch to it and expect to destroy the seal, or cut the nut off carefully, and try to cause minimal damage to the output shaft. Not much room to work in there, and any forces that you're applying can go straight into the gearset if you're not careful. Just be careful, as you don't want to get into trans damage.
I don't remember if the seal is replaceable without splitting the cases, but by looking at a picture of one (http://www.rpmracingca.com/proddetail.asp?prod=Engine%3ASealtrans&cat=39), I'm thinking that it's doable. In which case, get the area nice and clean before you start, and break out the propane.
Quote from: andyb on March 08, 2014, 04:48:10 AM
You can arguably put the load on a big flexshaft bar and then tap at it with a little hammer to good effect.
If there's red locktite on it, it doesn't matter, it won't be coming off without heat. Significant heat. There's a reason why it's called "permanent" threadlocker. Wouldn't surprise me in the least that a prior owner didn't know this, and put you in a very difficult place.
If that is what is on it, your options are a bit limiting. Put a torch to it and expect to destroy the seal, or cut the nut off carefully, and try to cause minimal damage to the output shaft. Not much room to work in there, and any forces that you're applying can go straight into the gearset if you're not careful. Just be careful, as you don't want to get into trans damage.
I don't remember if the seal is replaceable without splitting the cases, but by looking at a picture of one (http://www.rpmracingca.com/proddetail.asp?prod=Engine%3ASealtrans&cat=39), I'm thinking that it's doable. In which case, get the area nice and clean before you start, and break out the propane.
I don't quite understand the "tap it with a little hammer" process.
Depends which red Loctite was used.
Propane isn't very hot and I doubt with a shaft and nut that size if enough heat would make it back to the seal to cook it.
That nut is very shallow for it's diameter and the heat would penetrate the Loctite quickly.
You can replace that seal in situ.
You would have the gearbox in neutral.
Start with the right tools for the job, who knows, it might just spin off, if not, other methods can then be considered in a logical order. Put the angle grinder on hold for the minute.
Noel
Quote from: andyb on March 08, 2014, 04:48:10 AM
I don't remember if the seal is replaceable without splitting the cases, but by looking at a picture of one (http://www.rpmracingca.com/proddetail.asp?prod=Engine%3ASealtrans&cat=39), I'm thinking that it's doable. In which case, get the area nice and clean before you start, and break out the propane.
That seal can be replaced without splitting the cases. The OEM seal has a lip on it making difficult to remove but once removed a new seal can be pushed in and all is good again. Having worked with Red and Blue thread locking compounds over the last 20 years I can tell you that it can be removed with enough heat to soften it without damaging the seal. I have done it on powder coated parts without damaging the finish. A torch is the common way to heat it but not the only way. A torch is quick and most fasteners where Red thread lock is used won't be adversely affected by heat from a torch. The tricky part here is the amount of mass that needs to be heated enough to soften the evil stuff. That is why I suggested a ride to get all the bits up to engine temp and use a heat gun from there. Since he has access to an impact gun, that might be all it takes.
Once the nut is off try using Lacquer Thinner and a small wire brush to remove the red residue off the threads, it works for me. Get most of it off, 100% is not necessary 80% will do.
This might be useful: http://www.amaproracing.com/rr/news/index.cfm?cid=52562 (http://www.amaproracing.com/rr/news/index.cfm?cid=52562)
And it's ....... wait for it ........ OFF!! :good2: Thanks to all for the help and suggestions. I used the 'ride it around to warm it up' (how can you not take that option) and then hit it with 90psi on the impact gun. Came right off and YES there was red loctite. Now I can clean everything up and install some new sprockets and chain.
Sorry Gents that it took so long to respond but I just moved into a new place and had to wire up the air compressor.
:yahoo: :yahoo: :yahoo:
Quote from: Aeroaddict on March 08, 2014, 05:25:56 PM
And it's ....... wait for it ........ OFF!! hit it with 90psi on the impact gun. Came right off .....
That is great news. It obviously wasn't that tight. The right tool for the job.
Still, the discussion did bring out lots of interesting information.
Quote from: ribbert on March 08, 2014, 08:33:10 AM
Start with the right tools for the job, who knows, it might just spin off,
Noel
Quote from: Aeroaddict on March 08, 2014, 05:25:56 PM
And it's ....... wait for it ........ OFF!! :good2: Thanks to all for the help and suggestions. I used the 'ride it around to warm it up' (how can you not take that option) and then hit it with 90psi on the impact gun. Came right off and YES there was red loctite. Now I can clean everything up and install some new sprockets and chain.
Sorry Gents that it took so long to respond but I just moved into a new place and had to wire up the air compressor.
Good ! Now on to the new sprocket and chain. All she needs is 61 ft lbs and no Loctite...
George
Here are a few of my observations on the job of the counter shaft nut.
First, it's job is not that demanding. The CC sprocket is on a splined shaft so the nut does not need to be tightened so it prevents slippage of the sprocket.
The nut is there basically to keep the sprocket from falling off. Therefore it needs to be tight enough so that it does not back off. The lockwasher should prevent the nut from backing off. There are no forces that are trying to loosen the nut. In theory you should be able to simply hand tighten the nut, fold the tang of the lockwasher down and it should stay in place.
I would feel much more comfortable knowing that nut is torqued down very securely. There are a few thousands spacing allowed for that gear to slide over the splines. With acceration and decceration I don't want that gear working back and forth on that splined shaft. Dave
Excuse my typing. I meant acceleration and deceleration. Dave
As per factory YSM 61 ft lbs. :good2:
George