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General Category => Maintenance => Topic started by: Ront on January 25, 2014, 11:44:13 AM

Title: Carb Float Pins
Post by: Ront on January 25, 2014, 11:44:13 AM
Does anyone have experience with frozen carb float pins on a '86 FJ1200? Thanks
Title: Re: Carb Float Pins
Post by: Pat Conlon on January 25, 2014, 12:23:46 PM
How's your restoration doing?
Yea, stuck float pins, happens often. The absolute worse thing that can (easily) happen is to break off one of those cast aluminum posts that support the floats.
First you need to see that the pins only go out in one direction. There is a small cap on one side of the pin.
Second, you need the proper sized drift to tap the pin out.
I tried chemical first, followed by heat. After a multi day soak with PB Blaster I still had a stubborn pin.
I used my soldering iron. Put the tip on the aluminum post (cap side of the pin) just enough to heat up the  aluminum.

Gently tap tap tap. Gently is the key word.
Title: Re: Carb Float Pins
Post by: Ront on January 25, 2014, 01:13:50 PM
Coming along slowly. Thanks
Title: Re: Carb Float Pins
Post by: Ront on January 25, 2014, 01:15:40 PM
There should be a head on the cap side of the pin so you could twist it
Title: Re: Carb Float Pins
Post by: Pat Conlon on January 25, 2014, 01:28:36 PM
No, it's a small shoulder cap. Look closely. Take a toothbrush with some carb cleaner and scrub the ends of the float pin, you will see which end has the cap. Do not attempt to twist you *will* crack the post.
Title: Re: Carb Float Pins
Post by: Pat Conlon on January 25, 2014, 02:16:15 PM
Quote from: Ront on January 25, 2014, 01:15:40 PM
There should be a head on the cap side of the pin so you could twist it
Oops, I see now you were not asking a question. Those soft aluminum posts (as designed) would never stand up to a twisting force applied to the pin.

Even if the design of the posts were different, and were beefed up, and the stainless pin was threaded with a small hex cap on one end, with the inevitable build up of gum varnish on the threads of the pin, it would be ever harder to remove than the current design friction slip fit.
Title: Re: Carb Float Pins
Post by: ribbert on January 25, 2014, 07:52:28 PM
Quote from: Ront on January 25, 2014, 11:44:13 AM
Does anyone have experience with frozen carb float pins on a '86 FJ1200? Thanks

Firstly, as Pat mentioned, they are a press fit, not floating pins as found in some carbies and they do only come out one way, as determined by the head on one end.

It is unlikely they are "frozen". These are brass pins in alloy with only a small contact area between the two, they can never get THAT tight. The build up of grunge around the ends contributes nothing to the difficulty in removing them.

The right method will remove them easily every time without risk to the post.

Unfortunately, describing this process, like many others on bikes and cars, is only 20% of the job. The rest is "feel" which you can't really describe and only comes from experience.

Pat is right about tapping it out with a drift (pin punch). The key to success though is using the right tool to tap with.

What you want to do is deliver tiny little shocks to the pin to loosen it without delivering any force to the post holding it. That means whatever you tap with must be metal, to deliver the shock, and the right weight  so no force is transferred to the post.

Do not use plastic screwdriver handles, nylon hammers or wood to tap, they absorb the shock, it must be metal. Also, the carb body must be resting on something solid so the shock only goes to the pin.

I use this tiny hammer (on the left!). I have had it for about 40 years and this is the only job I ever seem to use it for, it is perfect.

(http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2886/12143542314_ee04644b0d_c.jpg)

Using this method puts the posts at no risk and will have the pin out in a few seconds.

Good luck

Noel
Title: Re: Carb Float Pins
Post by: FJmonkey on January 25, 2014, 09:34:22 PM
In addition, if you have the carbs apart, rest the carb body pin head side down. Use a small socket bit under the post to support it as you tap the pin loose. This work well for me.
Title: Re: Carb Float Pins
Post by: Pat Conlon on January 25, 2014, 10:44:59 PM
Quote from: ribbert on January 25, 2014, 07:52:28 PM
......These are brass pins in alloy with only a small contact area between the two, they can never get THAT tight....

Hey Noel, as always, a good post. I have always thought that the float pins were stainless steel......?

Mark, good point on using a small socket to rest the post on....takes the shock loads off the base of the cantilever post, the weakest point. You must be a ungineer.... :wacko3:
Of course, that only works if you take the rack apart and are working with a single carb.
Title: Re: Carb Float Pins
Post by: ribbert on January 25, 2014, 11:10:05 PM
Quote from: Pat Conlon on January 25, 2014, 10:44:59 PM

Hey Noel, as always, a good post. I have always thought that the float pins were stainless steel......?


They are.

Noel
Title: Re: Carb Float Pins
Post by: FJ_Hooligan on January 25, 2014, 11:15:46 PM
I'm pretty sure the pins are aluminum.  I always either sand them with some 600 grit or use the next oversize drill bit to enlarge the holes on the float post to give them a little more clearance.  The shape of the float bowl will keep the pin from falling out
Title: Re: Carb Float Pins
Post by: FJmonkey on January 25, 2014, 11:29:43 PM
Stainless and Aluminum are far enough apart, not similar enough to cause electrolysis. And Stainless is good for our modern H2O fuel issues. Don't need them things rusting to add to our challenge of being our own mechanic.... The pins in my 86' seemed like they were stainless, but I am not a materials engineer. Just a Matador in disguise with a penchant for FJ Kookloo. After 20+ years this has not become an FJ related issue, so lets not focus on that. The pins are made of unobtainium, nuff said....
Title: Re: Carb Float Pins
Post by: FJmonkey on January 25, 2014, 11:39:17 PM
Aluminum in Aluminum would eat its self in a few years (months in some cases). Not an Aluminum pin.... Similar materials problem, not and engineer but but I think like one. The pin is coated or made of some corrosion resistant metal.
Title: Re: Carb Float Pins
Post by: Jonesy on January 26, 2014, 12:19:34 AM
Hi Ront
you could try one of these that I made for my XS11 float pins, I believe early FJ 11's had similar carbys the less you use a hammer the better
(http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/800x600q90/259/inusex.jpg)

Title: Re: Carb Float Pins
Post by: Pat Conlon on January 26, 2014, 12:31:51 AM
Well, would you look at that...a chain break tool for your float pins, ingenious. :good:
Title: Re: Carb Float Pins
Post by: FJ_Hooligan on January 26, 2014, 12:37:49 AM
Arg!  My bad, upon closer inspection, the float posts are non magnetic and appear to be stainless rather than aluminum.  I defer to the Monkey.  Nothing to see here, move on......
Title: Carb Float pins
Post by: Ront on January 26, 2014, 09:11:14 AM
Thanks for all the responses on my float pin question.  Still haven't got pins out because I'm afraid of breaking a post. I'm thinking about making a tool that will support both posts and press pin out.  Does anyone know is the pin a press fit on both posts or just the post near the  cap/head end? Thanks again
Title: Re: Carb Float pins
Post by: movenon on January 26, 2014, 09:50:19 AM
IMO just support one end with a small socket or pipe and tap out the pin very gently with light taps. Use a small punch that will only fit on top the pin. As a note my "official" punch is a small finishing nail with the sharp end dressed off flat. A little mild heat might help on the pin legs. Pats idea with a solder gun tip seems good as it directs the heat into the legs only.

I would very strongly advice you not to use a tool that will give you a mechanical advantage like a press.  :morning1:
George
Title: Re: Carb Float pins
Post by: FJmonkey on January 26, 2014, 11:00:16 AM
The pin is not pressed into both posts, the press fit is only on the head side of the pin. The tail side of the pin is free. You only need to support the post on the head side of the pin. Once the pin is out about 1 or 2 MM, it will slide out free. The head side has a small shoulder and that is all that holds it tight. In fact, if you see how the bowls go on, even if the pin was loose, the bowls block the pin from falling out.
Title: Re: Carb Float Pins
Post by: Jonesy on January 26, 2014, 03:00:13 PM
QuoteWell, would you look at that...a chain break tool for your float pins, ingenious.

Thanks Pat
the beauty of this little device is you can turn it around on re-assembly and send the pin home the last couple of mm's..........no post breaking hammering or hitting required.
here's the underside
(http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/800x600q90/543/4rb4.jpg)
Title: Re: Carb Float Pins
Post by: FJmonkey on January 26, 2014, 03:33:40 PM
Nice solution, almost a MacGuiver kind of fix...
Title: Re: Carb Float Pins
Post by: Pat Conlon on January 26, 2014, 04:13:38 PM
Bloody marvelous. The Monkey is going to make up a dozen tools for us.... :bye2:
Title: Re: Carb Float Pins
Post by: FJmonkey on January 26, 2014, 04:18:15 PM
Is there a need for this tool? Any takers? Not hard to fab up. Let me know...
Title: Re: Carb Float Pins
Post by: giantkiller on January 26, 2014, 04:56:26 PM
Yes Monkey. I'm always paranoid I'm going to break my carb.if you make them. I'll take one. Please. And thank you.
Dan
Title: Re: Carb Float Pins
Post by: FJmonkey on January 26, 2014, 05:06:26 PM
Quote from: giantkiller on January 26, 2014, 04:56:26 PM
Yes Monkey. I'm always paranoid I'm going to break my carb.if you make them. I'll take one. Please. And thank you.
Dan
One and counting..
Title: Re: Carb Float Pins
Post by: Pat Conlon on January 26, 2014, 05:13:17 PM
If you can laser etch RPM on it, I would bet a jelly donut that Randy's in for a dozen.

As careful as I am, tippy tapping the float pins *always* makes me nervous.

With shit ethanol laced fuel playing havoc with our carbs, this neat little tool could be the next hot ticket.

Regardless...I'm in for two...
Title: Re: Carb Float Pins
Post by: Pat Conlon on January 26, 2014, 05:18:57 PM
Hey Jonesy, can the tool be used with all the carbs connected to the rack? Enough clearance?
Or do you have to separate the carbs and work on them individually?
Title: Re: Carb Float Pins
Post by: Country Joe on January 26, 2014, 05:39:29 PM
Monkey,
Put me down for one...... That is cool.

Joe
Title: Re: Carb Float Pins
Post by: FJ_Hooligan on January 26, 2014, 06:41:19 PM
When you install the pin, don't seat it all the way to the shoulder.  Leave a small gap and you can get a knife behind it next time it sticks.
Title: Re: Carb Float Pins
Post by: oldktmdude on January 26, 2014, 08:35:24 PM
Quote from: FJ_Hooligan on January 26, 2014, 06:41:19 PM
When you install the pin, don't seat it all the way to the shoulder.  Leave a small gap and you can get a knife behind it next time it sticks.
Remove the shoulder completely. Place the pin in a small drill chuck and lathe it off with a small file or emery cloth. It's not needed as the shape of the float bowl traps it in place.  Pete. :i_am_so_happy:
Title: Re: Carb Float Pins
Post by: Jonesy on January 27, 2014, 04:42:22 AM
yeah Pat, it can be used with all the carbs together, plenty of room for tool between carbs
Title: Re: Carb Float Pins
Post by: ribbert on January 27, 2014, 06:48:09 AM
Quote from: movenon on January 26, 2014, 09:50:19 AM



Noel
Title: Re: Carb Float Pins
Post by: ribbert on January 27, 2014, 07:46:24 AM
Quote from: movenon on January 26, 2014, 09:50:19 AM

I would very strongly advice you not to use a tool that will give you a mechanical advantage like a press.  :morning1:
George

Yes, I agree!

I wasn't going to comment on this, that is, until everyone got excited about having one.

Although I don't really see the need for it, the tool is a great bit of design, but the tool is not the problem. It is capable of exerting a force that in the hands of someone without the "feel" it's possible to do a lot of damage and of course no one is going to admit they don't have the "feel"

There are few things to consider here:


3.  Is the whole post breaking fear over rated? Yes.  Anyone using tools or methods capable of snapping off the post just to remove a small pin that is never THAT tight should hand their tools in at the nearest Police Station.

7.   If you don't have enough feel to tap the pins out without putting the posts at risk, you certainly don't have enough feel to be let loose with this.

9.   Do people on this site have too much time on their hands and a penchant for FJ specific gadgets? Yes.
10.  Do people on the site ignore advice from someone with decades of full time experience in favour of back yarder's and shadetree mechanics? Yes.
10a.Are people still going to rush out and buy this in droves? Yes.
11.  Am I wasting my breath? Yes.
12.  Do I care? No, I've done my bit.
13.  Can I believe I've just written this much about knocking a little pin out of a hole? No.
14.  Are points 9 - 13 tongue in cheek? Yes.
Are people going to enjoy telling me they used it successfully? Yes.
Are people going to report on the forum if they didn't? No.

I have no doubt this tool is safe in the hands of its creator but most of you never get to see just how ham fisted and totally lacking in manual dexterity some people are.
The pins are not that tight and the posts are not that fragile.
Or, as many have mentioned, take them out once and make them floating pins, the bowl will keep them in place.


Noel
Title: Re: Carb Float Pins
Post by: FJ_Hooligan on January 27, 2014, 11:46:20 AM
I broke a float post once on a really nasty set of carbs.  Turns out the pin was not stuck in the post but was instead glued to the float by dried fuel varnish.  I had to peal the curved metal of the float off of the pin.  Neither item was serviceable upon disassembly.  Fortunately, I had an extra carb body.
Title: Re: Carb Float Pins
Post by: Pat Conlon on January 27, 2014, 11:54:58 AM
I don't agree with the floating pin idea... Yes, the sides of the bowl will keep the float from backing 'completely out' sure, I agree, but all you need to have happen is to have that pin back out 2mm and you will lose support on one side of the float pivot. There is enough clearance between the bowl and pin for this to happen.
Having a float unable to completely close the needle, causing a free flow ...is a pain to avoid.
Title: Re: Carb Float Pins
Post by: racerrad8 on January 27, 2014, 02:39:07 PM
Stop the presses, the world must be skewed...

Noel and I have an actual agreement on two things since he has returned...
Quote from: ribbert on January 23, 2014, 08:00:27 AM
Glad to see nothing's changed in my absence. First technical post in many months and it draws flak!  :biggrin:
Quote from: ribbert on January 27, 2014, 07:46:24 AM
3.  Is the whole post breaking fear over rated? Yes.

But, back to the topic at hand. I have been doing my end of the year paperwork and I noted that I have rebuilt 238 banks for carbs in 2013. That equals 952 float pins I removed with nothing more than an automatic center punch just like the one below.
Spring Loaded Center Punch (http://www.harborfreight.com/spring-loaded-center-punch-621.html)

I did not break a single float post, in fact I have never broken one in my 20 years of working on these carbs.

So, use the appropriate tool for the job; a non-tapered pin punch with a small hammer and tap the pin out delicately as brute force is not required or buy an automatic center punch which uses a controlled, spring loaded strike each and every time.

The tool pictured by Jonsey is a pretty good idea as it spreads the load over two posts. I can't tell if the tip of the screw is tapered or machined straight like a pin punch. The tool will take a little finesse or feel to use so to not snap of the top of both posts by applying too much pressure to the screw & pin.

Take the advice from me after seeing the miracles I have performance on my carbs from members here.
Sent RPM Randy the carbs... (http://www.fjowners.com/index.php?topic=10053.0)
Randy Raduechel is The Man (http://www.fjowners.com/index.php?topic=10117.msg97161#msg97161)
Carb sync help during the WCR rally? (http://www.fjowners.com/index.php?topic=8954.msg84240;topicseen#msg84240) (Leon & Pat can tell you how well they were synced when they put the tool on, I believe more than a year after I built them)

Or Noel with, who I quote;
Quote from: ribbert on January 27, 2014, 07:46:24 AM
10.  Do people on the site ignore advice from someone with decades of full time experience [like me] in favour of back yarder's and shadetree mechanics? Yes.

Noel
(http://fjowners.com/gallery/6/630_04_12_13_3_49_34.jpeg)

At least this time we agree on something and no videos were required.

Randy - RPM
Title: Re: Carb Float Pins
Post by: ribbert on January 27, 2014, 05:44:51 PM
Damn Doug and that photo.

I can't have that as the only photographic evidence of my mechanical prowess on the forum.

The Saab was a work in progress, here is what it looks like now, as well as mechanically A1.

(http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3791/12029568924_b9f2674f79_c.jpg)

(http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3681/12029579584_7144f64007_z.jpg)

By the way the automatic centre punch is a great idea. Not only for this job, they are one of those tools you find endless uses for.

There may be some who do not know what we are talking about.

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/71kknGkAQyL.jpg)

Unlike the diagram above, they are small.

You push on the end with your hand, the spring pressure builds up and then releases with a sharp shock. It is adjustable. Great tool to have in the garage. They are not expensive.

Noel
Title: Re: Carb Float Pins
Post by: Arnie on January 27, 2014, 06:27:05 PM
As Noel says, and Randy recommends, an automatic center punch is a great tool to have, and they are not expensive.

HOWEVER, don't cheap out and buy one from Harbor Freight for $2 or $3.  Go to a good tool shop and pay $10 or so.  The cheap Harbor Freight center punch will fall apart.  DAMHIKIJDOK

Arnie
Title: Re: Carb Float Pins
Post by: giantkiller on January 28, 2014, 12:55:10 AM
Yah Randy I love my auto center punch. One of the best tools ever for us manual Fabricators. Never thought of using it for this. Too obvious? I guess. And I did try the harbor freight one, worked for a little while. Then I got a good one.

Thanks for pointing out the obvious Randy
Some times I can't see the forest for the trees
Title: Re: Carb Float Pins
Post by: FJ1100mjk on January 28, 2014, 07:40:59 AM
And don't forget to put some KERNITE grease on those pins either. No more stuck pins or floats.  :rofl2:
Title: Re: Carb Float Pins
Post by: ribbert on January 28, 2014, 08:25:42 AM
Quote from: FJ1100mjk on January 28, 2014, 07:40:59 AM
And don't forget to put some KERNITE grease on those pins either. No more stuck pins or floats.  :rofl2:

Isn't the petrol going to make short work of any grease in there?

I really think there is widespread misunderstanding about press fit pins being stuck or frozen pins, they're meant to be a tight fit.

Noel
Title: Re: Carb Float Pins
Post by: FJ1100mjk on January 28, 2014, 10:10:38 AM
Quote from: ribbert on January 28, 2014, 08:25:42 AM
Quote from: FJ1100mjk on January 28, 2014, 07:40:59 AM
And don't forget to put some KERNITE grease on those pins either. No more stuck pins or floats.  :rofl2:

Isn't the petrol going to make short work of any grease in there?

Noel

My post was meant as a joke. Sorry.

I will go stand in the corner now.
Title: Re: Carb Float Pins
Post by: Pat Conlon on January 28, 2014, 10:40:01 AM
I have a spring center punch too but it's the wrong size, too large.
You better make sure that puppy is in the right spot before you snap the spring...

I still like Jonesy's tool. A slow careful twist vs a quick snap. I'll think I'll make one when the time comes.
Should be fairly simple to make with a small piece of angle iron. The measurement on the spacing on the holes for the posts will have to be dead nuts so as to assure the force is spread evenly between the two posts.

No real need right now, the bikes are running in tip top shape. Randy just set up the carbs on my '84 and he would have my nuts nailed to the wall if I ever fiddled with them.

So Noel, fess up, what's the story on the tire tread?
Title: Re: Carb Float Pins
Post by: The General on January 28, 2014, 04:20:18 PM
Quote from: Pat Conlon on January 28, 2014, 10:40:01 AM

So Noel, fess up, what's the story on the tire tread?
http://www.fjowners.com/index.php?topic=10617.15 (http://www.fjowners.com/index.php?topic=10617.15)
(apologies Noel  :biggrin:)
Title: Re: Carb Float Pins
Post by: JMR on January 28, 2014, 07:50:40 PM
 A good friend of mine can micro-weld broken float posts...it looks like miniature tig. Works great.
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Title: Re: Carb Float Pins
Post by: ribbert on January 28, 2014, 10:11:41 PM
Quote from: Pat Conlon on January 28, 2014, 10:40:01 AM

You better make sure that puppy is in the right spot before you snap the spring...


Getting a bit trivial now but I still prefer the light hammer and punch. Much greater range of tapping force and more feedback. You can feel and hear when you're hitting harder than should have to and you can feel when it moves, even if it's only a thou. but then I don't work on the same thing all the time either.

Quote from: Pat Conlon on January 28, 2014, 10:40:01 AM
So Noel, fess up, what's the story on the tire tread?

Doug had just flown in to pick up his XS1200 sidecar and I was picking him up. Within a mile of leaving the airport that section of the space saver spare let go at one end and was beating the wheel well to death at 100kph. I had only had the puncture that required the fittiing of that wheel that morning so I had no spare.

I realised the tyre was still inflated and we only had a 20kms to go. I got a pair of leather gloves and ripped the whole piece off, steel belt and all, and kept driving at a reduced speed. We not only made lunch but I drove around on it for another week until I had new tyres fitted.

This amused Doug greatly and he chose to embarrass me by photographing and posting it (AFTER he had picked up his bike)

All I can say is, the 80kph max speed limit they recommend on those wheels does not take into account running late for the airport.

Noel
Title: Re: Carb Float Pins
Post by: Jonesy on January 29, 2014, 01:54:21 AM
hey fellas I've "knocked" pins out for years too without damaging a post. but when i stripped the carbies in photo a previous owner had snapped a post and I just wanted to take out the risk of impact damage to these fragile posts, hence the tool, to be honest most of them will come out by twisting the cap screw by thumb n finger. the allen key is just for the odd one that doesnt wanna move so easily. it takes a bit of rat tail filing to get the holes just so that and that the weight is distributed evenly on both posts......... it worked for me as an alternative to smacking away at a pin and getting frustrated and possibly doing damage. ....the split second regret.

EDIT
--------------------------------------------------
the center pop is a cool idea too, is that for seperated carbs or together as a bank of 4? or do you come in at abit of an angle?