.....another junkyard rear shock choice for the 1989-1990 FJ 1200. I'm just throwing this out as a teaser. I just got back from a short test ride and so far I find it way superior to the BMW shock. I need to get all my notes and photos for a full write up, giving the pros and cons, but here are some hints about the donor bike. It weighs a lot more than the FJ, it is still being made and they are very common. I hope to post the write up t
Quote from: Country Joe on January 01, 2014, 05:32:13 PM
.....another junkyard rear shock choice for the 1989-1990 FJ 1200. I'm just throwing this out as a teaser. I just got back from a short test ride and so far I find it way superior to the BMW shock. I need to get all my notes and photos for a full write up, giving the pros and cons, but here are some hints about the donor bike. It weighs a lot more than the FJ, it is still being made and they are very common. I hope to post the write up t
Where is the salivate emoticon? (popcorn)
CraigO
Honda ST1300 maybe..... :pardon:
Fred
Very close, Fred. Very good guess.
Concourse?
Is it a air shock?
Come on Joe, throw us a bone....
I don't know if anybody here remembers that I bought a Honda GL 1800 a while back and sold it late last spring.......pics and write up to come.
Joe
I'm in! :bye:
Ok, all.....Let me lay out the pros and cons of this shock swap the best that I can.
1.Availability. Remember all those Goldwing trikes parked out in front of the Dairy Queen that we love to point at and laugh at? Everyone of them has had the rear shock removed in the conversion process. Many of them were converted before they ever got 12 miles put on them. All those shocks are laying on a shelf at a trike shop or are on sale on Ebay. I found mine at the local trike shop, brand new for $100.00. You often find them for half that price.
2.Aftermarket spring availability. Progressive Suspension, HyperPro and Race Tech all have heavier springs readily available. I picked up a 1000/1200 lb. Progressive spring from Amazon for $78.00. The shock I have is from a 2010 GL 1800. The best info I can find puts the stock spring rate at 900 lbs. Supposedly the 2012-2013 bikes have a stiffer spring rate and valving, but I can't verify that at this time.
3.Overall length. the FJ shock is 11.445" center to center, the BMW R1200RS shock I have cut down as short as possible is 13.046" C to C (as close as I could measure) and I cut the bottom yoke on the Goldwing shock and re-drilled it to a C to C length of 12.203". I also had to drill out the top bushing from 10mm to 12mm.
(http://[url=http://s1135.photobucket.com/user/FlyoverCountryJoe/media/IMG-20131116-01131.jpg.html%5D%5BIMG%5Dhttp://i1135.photobucket.com/albums/m630/FlyoverCountryJoe/IMG-20131116-01131.jpg)[/URL][/img]
4.Hydraulically adjustable preload. The Goldwing has a rear preload adjuster that is operated by a rocker switch and it has a position indicator that displays from 0 to 25. I was pretty excited by the idea of using a DPDT switch to operate the motor on the adjuster, but after consulting some of the tech gurus over on GL1800riders.com, it became pretty clear that the actuator doesn't tolerate being run all the way to the end of its travel. So, I dropped that idea and swapped over the BMW remote preload adjuster to the Honda shock. The BMW adjuster bolts on to the frame bracket where the original preload and damping adjuster went.
5. The inside width of the lower clevis is the same width as the FJ shock clevis, no washers needed.
(http://[url=http://s1135.photobucket.com/user/FlyoverCountryJoe/media/IMG-20130914-01043-1.jpg.html%5D%5BIMG%5Dhttp://i1135.photobucket.com/albums/m630/FlyoverCountryJoe/IMG-20130914-01043-1.jpg)[/URL][/img]
Too bad the pictures are not showing up...I have pics of the dogbones and relay arm, showing the geometry being closer to stock than the other shock I have tried. The dogbones I made for the BMW shock were 6" C to C and I drilled new holes for the Honda shock at just a little less than 5".
Now the cons.....
1. It is still longer than the stock shock.
2.The damping is not adjustable. I have never heard anyone complain that the stock Honda shock is overwhelmed by the stiffer spring, but I figure as the shock wears that might become an issue. I think Race Tech will still rebuild the Honda shock and install their Gold Valve in it, but that is still not going to equal the RPM shock. I will work of getting the pics to show up, if anyone has any need to see them.
Joe
For the effort you put out Joe, let me help you with inserting the Picts into your post....where do I find them? I checked the Gallery but did not see them. Pat
Quote from: Pat Conlon on January 02, 2014, 10:11:08 PM
For the effort you put out Joe, let me help you with inserting the Picts into your post....where do I find them? I checked the Gallery but did not see them. Pat
Pat, thanks for the help. I have them in Photobucket. I need to more them over to the forum gallery.
Quote from: Country Joe on January 02, 2014, 09:59:18 PM
Ok, all.....Let me lay out the pros and cons of this shock swap the best that I can.
1.Availability. Remember all those Goldwing trikes parked out in front of the Dairy Queen that we love to point at and laugh at? Everyone of them has had the rear shock removed in the conversion process. Many of them were converted before they ever got 12 miles put on them. All those shocks are laying on a shelf at a trike shop or are on sale on Ebay. I found mine at the local trike shop, brand new for $100.00. You often find them for half that price.
2.Aftermarket spring availability. Progressive Suspension, HyperPro and Race Tech all have heavier springs readily available. I picked up a 1000/1200 lb. Progressive spring from Amazon for $78.00. The shock I have is from a 2010 GL 1800. The best info I can find puts the stock spring rate at 900 lbs. Supposedly the 2012-2013 bikes have a stiffer spring rate and valving, but I can't verify that at this time.
3.Overall length. the FJ shock is 11.445" center to center, the BMW R1200RS shock I have cut down as short as possible is 13.046" C to C (as close as I could measure) and I cut the bottom yoke on the Goldwing shock and re-drilled it to a C to C length of 12.203". I also had to drill out the top bushing from 10mm to 12mm.
(http://i1135.photobucket.com/albums/m630/FlyoverCountryJoe/IMG-20131116-01131.jpg) (http://s1135.photobucket.com/user/FlyoverCountryJoe/media/IMG-20131116-01131.jpg.html)
4.Hydraulically adjustable preload. The Goldwing has a rear preload adjuster that is operated by a rocker switch and it has a position indicator that displays from 0 to 25. I was pretty excited by the idea of using a DPDT switch to operate the motor on the adjuster, but after consulting some of the tech gurus over on GL1800riders.com, it became pretty clear that the actuator doesn't tolerate being run all the way to the end of its travel. So, I dropped that idea and swapped over the BMW remote preload adjuster to the Honda shock. The BMW adjuster bolts on to the frame bracket where the original preload and damping adjuster went.
5. The inside width of the lower clevis is the same width as the FJ shock clevis, no washers needed.
(http://i1135.photobucket.com/albums/m630/FlyoverCountryJoe/IMG-20130914-01043-1.jpg) (http://s1135.photobucket.com/user/FlyoverCountryJoe/media/IMG-20130914-01043-1.jpg.html)
Too bad the pictures are not showing up...I have pics of the dogbones and relay arm, showing the geometry being closer to stock than the other shock I have tried. The dogbones I made for the BMW shock were 6" C to C and I drilled new holes for the Honda shock at just a little less than 5".
Now the cons.....
1. It is still longer than the stock shock.
2.The damping is not adjustable. I have never heard anyone complain that the stock Honda shock is overwhelmed by the stiffer spring, but I figure as the shock wears that might become an issue. I think Race Tech will still rebuild the Honda shock and install their Gold Valve in it, but that is still not going to equal the RPM shock. I will work of getting the pics to show up, if anyone has any need to see them.
Joe
Cool, I like the pre load adjuster. Here is some information on spring rates that I have. It might help someone in making a spring change.
Yamaha 1992 service guide pg 4, stock spring rate 13.5 kg/mm (a little over 750 lb/inch). 48 mm travel. (just saying whats in the 92 Yamaha manual)
FJ shock spring rate information from Penske. Data in lbs/inch.
Divide by 56 to convert to kg/mm
Spring 120-160# 160-190# 190-225# 225-260#
Length with gear with gear with gear with gear
FJ 1100 85-87....... 6..........850...............900.....................950..................1000
FJ 1200 88-89........6..........900...............950....................1000..................1050
FJ 1200 1990.........6..........850...............900......................950..................1000
FJ 1200 91-93........5..........900...............950....................1000..................1050
These are all straight rate springs. I don't know how they calculate or at what point they measure progressive rate springs. I just ordered a 950 Lb Eibach spring for my FJ.
George
Looks like Randy found them....thanks Randy!
Randy, George and Pat, thanks for your help, I know at one time I knew how to pist pics, but I've slept since then. :sarcastic: later today I will try to get up the other photos that I have taken of the project.
Joe
Quote from: movenon on January 03, 2014, 12:32:40 AM
FJ shock spring rate information from Penske. Data in lbs/inch.
Divide by 56 to convert to kg/mm
Spring 120-160# 160-190# 190-225# 225-260#
Length with gear with gear with gear with gear
FJ 1100 85-87....... 6..........850...............900.....................950..................1000
FJ 1200 88-89........6..........900...............950....................1000..................1050
FJ 1200 1990.........6..........850...............900......................950..................1000
FJ 1200 91-93........5..........900...............950....................1000..................1050
Man those are stiff springs, that applied a lot of unwanted twisting force to the upper shock mount and cross member which I have seen cracked and twisted open.
The RPM shock, which as most know was specifically designed for the FJ1100/FJ1200, is valved and sprung properly for the FJ. It is not a universal shock that uses a soft valving in the shock to control the oil flow and then must rely on a higher rate spring to control ride height.
I noted a while back while riding an FJ with a Penske shock that the shock, "tops out" which means it travels to full shock extension and then the rear tire starts coming off the ground. If the spring is so stiff and the adjustment is that so the shock can top out under only moderate braking, it really is unsafe.
The reason it is unsafe is the fact once the shock tops out, the rear wheel does not have any pressure holding it to the road. This might be great for kids doing stoppies, but for sport riding it is dangerous.
The top out was one of the hardest things to get tuned out of the RPM shock during the design & testing. The FJ is heavy and there is a lot of weight transfer, so the valving we started with was way off. I am not sure if those who were at the 2012 Renegade rally recall, but that was the issue I was dealing with that day and that was the 4th or 5th version of the valve package. Once that was tuned out of the shock, the final product was read to go and that is what you get today.
I appreciate the fact guys are trying different shock combinations for their FJ's, but if all of the parameters, like swing arm linkage angles, springs rates and internal valving are compromised to accommodate something else; ones safety is that they are taking into their hands.
Ride safe and when you convert over to some form of altered shock combination, make sure you test ride at a graduated pace to make sure something does not sneak up on you that you were not expecting.
I am not say this just because I make a rear shock for the FJ, I say it because I do not want to see anyone get hurt using modified items on their FJ's. We do all of this for "fun" and I think all of us have something important to wake up to everyday; loved ones, family, friends, jobs, retirement compared to being in the hospital or worse, six feet under.:negative:
Randy - RPM
Quote from: racerrad8 on January 03, 2014, 11:06:41 AM
I am not say this just because I make a rear shock for the FJ, I say it because I do not want to see anyone get hurt using modified items on their FJ's. We do all of this for "fun" and I think all of us have something important to wake up to everyday; loved ones, family, friends, jobs, retirement compared to being in the hospital or worse, six feet under.:negative:
Randy - RPM
:good2: :good2: :good2: :good2: :good2: :good2:
It is just that I say to my friends when they speak about "saving" in tyres, pads...
Is it really worth the effort to look for a 2nd hand shock in good nick and take the job of adapt a shock not designed for the dogbones relation, with a damper force dialed for a different spring?
Buy an OE shock (with short dogbones is stiff and unburstable), repair the OE unit, buy a Wilbers shock (excellent, but I´ve not checked the fiability) or Randy´s, the only specially designed shock for our bike
EMC, Betor, Hagon, WP or öhlins are not worth the money because sooner or later leak
Randy,
I don't understand how any change in rear shock valving or springing can affect "top-out".
If there is sufficient braking force to rotate the mass of the bike then the rear will lift off the ground.
If the rebound damping is high, the lift off the ground will be a bit earlier than if the damping is low, but if you have enough force to lift the rear wheel off the ground, it will lift.
How much and how quickly the front suspension compresses will affect this lift off.
How can the rear shock change this?
Too stiff of a spring will not allow the shock to "sag" to the proper level of the shock travel, and already be at or near the full extended position (top out). So the shock already starts at or near the top of the stroke and has all of the compression stoke it could ever use, but the spring to allow that to happen.
Also if the dampening of the shock is too weak, it will allow the piston to travel through the oil too quickly and cause the shock to top out. That was what we have to dial out of the RPM after the shock was set to the dyno numbers the Penske offered up as a starting point.
If the dampening is too high (stiff) then the shock will not top out but it will unload the rear wheel and cause it to get light, but the suspension will keep traveling downward towards the roadway. Whereas a shock that is "topped out" has no more rebound travel in it and that means it will lift the wheel.
Sure, every shock, including the stock shock will reach top out/maximum travel and cause wheel lift, but when the Penske on the bike I was referring to, is sprung so stiff that when you sit on the bike it barely sags, then the shock is at or near top out. A softer spring will help this issue, but the valving inside the shock is set up for use with the stiff spring and if you go lighter then the compression valving is too soft and the ride quality drops off as the shock now bottoms out.
The Penske is a good product and has a track record of being a better product than the stock shock, but the shock has always been a universal product adapted to work on the FJ; not offer the optimum performance for the FJ. Plus, that was really the only option as well and it is head & shoulders better than stock.
It is a balance between the spring & valving. If the valving is compromised to give a better ride, which is how the Penske is done, then they have to use the spring to keep the shock from bottoming out on compression and the dampening is not really working because the shock is already basically topped out because of the stiff spring. Based on the spring offering George posted up, the softest spring is the stiffest spring offered for the RPM shock and that is for 275# plus riders or two up.
All shocks are a compromise, unless you have access to the patented design of the RPM shock with the inertia bypass valving, which now gives the shock a dual valve and offers the optimum ride for the FJ. Then a softer spring can be used to make sure the shock is in the centered range of travel and can perform as designed. The valving has been explained many times regarding the RPM rear shock and this is not the topic for that discussion.
Randy - RPM
The information I posted was just for information as to what Penske has on there spring rates for others to evaluate. Hard to find published data on the spring rates. Internet rumors aside.
Also I noted that Yamaha 1992 service guide pg 4, stock spring rate 13.5 kg/mm (a little over 750 lb/inch).
Reference Yamaha Service Guides; Rear shock spring rates.
FJ 1200 S/SC 17 kg/mm (952 lb)
FJ 1200 W/WC 20 kg/mm (1120 LB)
FJ 1200 B/BC 13.5 kg/mm (756 lb)
Gets confusing.....
But what ever spring rate anyone uses, in the end it has to balance with the front end and that is reflected in the sag measurements. You have to adjust the spring rate accordingly. If you sit on a bike and you don't have enough sag then the spring is to stiff, if you have to much sag then it is to soft. In either of those cases the shock isn't set up for you and a new spring (or shock) is in order. In choosing a correct spring rate for any one person without a dozen springs on your shelf and time to test ride it becomes a "WAG". The above information adds to the "WAG" factor that's all.
I have a 14.7 kg/mm rear spring and weigh 212-220 lbs + top box, tank bag etc. and at present I am out of balance (to much rear sag). I am going up to a 16 kg/mm spring (my WAG) and if that's to stiff then it will end up on e bay and I will adjust accordingly. But in the end my bike will balance. Then I will adjust damping as needed.
IMO choosing a shock to modify it helps to select a shock that you can modify the internal damping if needed. Rebuilding some of the newer performance shocks is no more difficult than rebuilding your forks. Not going to go into what the best shock is because I don't have to foggiest idea. I would think that the RPM shock fits that bill because it is tuned and set up specifically for the FJ. "Plug and Play" so to speak. As just opinion I would also recommend RPM's fork valves with the springs they recommend to keep things in balance. :good2:
George
Good evening everyone,
I have been using the RPM shock for a considerable length of time and many miles. Throughout this period there has not been any degradation in the performance of the shock that can be determined. The performance remains unsurpassed by any other shock - is there one that can match it? Perhaps but doubtful.
I carry 11 gallons of fuel, and often fuel up a full ten gallons. That is a significant amount of weight (much of it directly over the rear wheel) to add without making any changes in suspension settings and more importantly, there is no noticeable difference in handling characteristics; regardless if on a back country road or the interstate.
At times soft luggage is used as well, yet I never bother with suspension settings - even the ride height is unaffected - the vaunted sag settings are practically unchanged. Ride quality remains constant with or without the added weight at the same exact settings.
Although [admittedly rather rotund for my short height] at 230 lbs. with full riding gear, add the fuel, the tank bag & soft luggage the RPM shock is fitted with a soft spring (as compared to other shocks) and yet fully loaded or just with the rider the suspension performs remarkably well and the preload remains the same.
I rode to the ECFR in September logging over 6000 miles round trip, riding every kind of Interstate and secondary road imaginable and never changed the settings. Road the Dragon & Cherohola without the added weight (leaving the baggage in the cabin). I spent last weekend in San Diego and the mountains. A month or so ago I spent the day chasing around with Flynt and friends at a mini Renegade Rally in northern California. In between all that there has been a lot of additional miles.
Which leads to another (perhaps not previously addressed) aspect of the RPM suspension: the increase in tire life.
I am changing out my tires at 12,000 + miles - the set I had for the above travels I was using the soft compound Michelin Pilot Power 3. While there was still life left in them I have recently installed Pilot Road 3's for the winter riding. Prior to using the components offered by the gentleman from RPM, tires were worn out at a considerably faster rate, especially the front which often would wear unevenly.
For all around ride quality, both spirited back country riding and extended cross country Interstate cruising the suspension from RPM is a great combination.
Speaking of balance: there is a particular zone previously described as a "harmonic window" where the ride rivals anything else on two wheels.
Happy New Year, ride safe & keep smiling,
Mike Ramos.
Quote from: Mike Ramos on January 04, 2014, 03:54:49 AM
Good evening everyone,
I have been using the RPM shock for a considerable length of time and many miles. Throughout this period there has not been any degradation in the performance of the shock that can be determined. The performance remains unsurpassed by any other shock - is there one that can match it? Perhaps but doubtful. <snip>
Nice report Mike. Randy's new shock sounds like a winner, and perhaps the definitive way to optimize the suspension of the FJ. A couple of questions: Would you mind taking a stab at more specifically, how many miles, and how long? Also, regarding your extended tire wear, I forget, do you also have the RPM Valves up front, or something else? I did not go back through the thread so that second answer may well be there.
I am not going to be one to consider this shock, my FJ is long dead, but I have been watching the progress of this shock with anticipation nonetheless.
Dan
Quote from: Dan Filetti on January 04, 2014, 07:32:42 AM
A couple of questions: Would you mind taking a stab at more specifically, how many miles, and how long? Also, regarding your extended tire wear, I forget, do you also have the RPM Valves up front, or something else? I did not go back through the thread so that second answer may well be there.
Well, Mike received the second shock ever made when the testing process started. He has put over 25K on the rear shock in a multitude of different valving settings as well as spring rates.
Yes, he does have the RPM fork valves too which were also tested and variety of ways as well. He probably has close to 35-40K on the front fork valves.
I do believe the rear shock has only just now changed over to the third tire and was changed more due to tread design that were as he lives in a snowy region and he wanted to make sure he had plenty of grip.
I am sure he will come along later with more details.
Randy - RPM
Quote from: racerrad8 on January 04, 2014, 12:42:44 PM
........just now changed over to the third tire and was changed more due to tread design that were as he lives in a snowy region and he wanted to make sure he had plenty of grip.......
So Mike's running studded snow tires? It figures.....
...my son reported seeing a '92 rolling thru a blizzard at the top of I-80 by Truckee.....
He called me all excited..."Dad...What kind of crazy people do you have on that FJ forum?
Yea, it figures...
Good evening everyone,
Pat, let's not forget that you were one of the fellows who recommended the PR 3's to me! Next you proclaimed to me that '92 is the best year for FJ's and then you tell me mine is "okay" but not as nice as yours... Now you insinuate that I am crazy? Well I am here to tell you that I deeply represent that remark!
That being said, if it was Thursday evening and not I-80 but Hwy 36 between Red Bluff and Fortuna in far northern California it would have been me whom your son noticed. It had snowed several weeks ago to the valley floor in the Redding area but the snow soon melted away.
Thursday afternoon I left Redding about two hours before dark heading to the Bay Area for the weekend and thought first traveling west on Hwy 36 would be a lot of fun - and it was for an hour or so and it was just great riding UNTIL I entered & climbed into the mountains and hit the still existing left over snow, mud, falling rock and especially the gravel that is put down which is good for the autos but not so good for the motorcycles....!
So Pat, arriving in Fortuna and Hwy 101 I had high regard for you and your guiding me to the proper wet weather tires, stopping only for fuel before heading south. Luckily for all of us out on the left coast the temperatures never reached freezing (so no studded tires needed) and I proceeded south into the Bay Area.
Now on a serious note. Dan re: the rear shock from RPM - I have over 25,000 miles on the shock in about 14 months. Initially on the 1991 and these last 16,000 or so on the 1992 (when I purchased the '92 I switched over all the mods from the '91) with the same exceptional results.
I notice that the gentleman from RPM has speculated that I have "35-40K" on the fork valves. No, I would say at least double + - considering it was one of my first mods from RPM.
Decreased tire wear has not been happenstance however it has been a most welcome surprise. Although, like oil we all know what are the best tires for the old FJ (!), I lean towards Michelin and to date the RPM shock has seen a set of Pilot Road 2, two Pilot Power 3's and now at over 25,000 additional miles the Pilot Road 3 for the winter. In all instances each set still had miles left in them but as I was going on a cross country I changed them out for fresh tires.
Have fun everyone, keep smiling & ride carefully,
Mike Ramos
[clarification from moderator - the Midget intended to express his dissatisfaction with Mr. Conlon's statement about him being of unsound mind - aka "crazy"; the remark is not "deeply represented" but "deeply resented"...]
Quote from: Mike Ramos on January 04, 2014, 08:19:27 PM
hit the still existing left over snow, mud, falling rock and especially the gravel...
...and for me the sand. I was out on the Hyper (PR3 F&R) three weeks back and found patches of ice, snow, sand, gravel, branches, etc all over the road between Mt Hamilton and Livermore. Stopped at The Junction (halfway to Livermore) and found I was covered in dried on grey slurry from the kicked up mess that had me looking like a ghost. Massive clean-up job after that, but at least I got through it. Riding on ice I just took it slow and the bike tracked like a charm... I think the tires are pretty amazing giving me a fun ride on that day.
Frank
Quote from: Mike Ramos on January 04, 2014, 08:19:27 PM
[clarification from moderator - the Midget intended to express his dissatisfaction with Mr. Conlon's statement about him being of unsound mind - aka "crazy"; the remark is not "deeply represented" but "deeply resented"...]
Agressive passive agressive? :rofl:
Does any one have an optimal rear sag number for the FJ? I'm looking for 25-30 mm but if anybody has a different number I'm all ears.
Joe
Quote from: Country Joe on January 04, 2014, 09:25:27 PM
Does any one have an optimal rear sag number for the FJ? I'm looking for 25-30 mm but if anybody has a different number I'm all ears.
Joe
I don't know if there is an "optimal". What kind of riding do you want to set up for? Also what is your front sag? 25mm seems pretty tight on the rear for street use to me. You don't want your rear sag to far off from your front. I am sure there is a spec range for a stock FJ but I haven't found it yet. Keep up the good work. Standing by for opinions :good2:
George
For me (as my bike has been totally changed) I will target 40 - 50mm up front and 40mm the rear. And see what my free sag measures. That's roughly based on the FJ front fork travel of 5.9" (150mm) and rear shock travel of 4.7 " (119mm). But that's me and I don't do track days or aggressive riding.
George
George,
I appreciate your thoughts. I will most likely drop back to the stock Goldwing spring if I want to get maximum sag and work up from there. I will start testing with as much sag as I can get in the rear, as I still have the stock springs in front with slightly longer spacers than stock. I don't remember how much longer they are, but I am not getting coil bind, I still have full fork travel according to a zip tie. I need to start writing this stuff down...........don't expect any testing for a while, work has me out of town quite a bit this month and the weather is going to be, well, variable.
Joe
Quote from: Country Joe on January 05, 2014, 07:54:34 AM
George,
I appreciate your thoughts. I will most likely drop back to the stock Goldwing spring if I want to get maximum sag and work up from there. I will start testing with as much sag as I can get in the rear, as I still have the stock springs in front with slightly longer spacers than stock. I don't remember how much longer they are, but I am not getting coil bind, I still have full fork travel according to a zip tie. I need to start writing this stuff down...........don't expect any testing for a while, work has me out of town quite a bit this month and the weather is going to be, well, variable.
Joe
Yes, start writing your setting's. Keep all the records of what you do. Even after all the mathematically perfect settings are set you might want to adjust it 6 months down the road after some seat time. I would start with the front forks as a reference. And then measure the rear to evaluate where you really are for a base line. Record you static sag and rider sags. Static sag is important also.
The sag adjustments are for you and your style of riding. All I know is that the front and rear need to be somewhat in balance. The less sag the stiffer, more sag softer within a given spring rate. Preload will not change the spring rate. There are published ranges and I would stick close to them. I am in the same boat as you. In a few weeks I will measure all my settings and evaluate where I am. After that then there is setting the dampening... And that's a ride and adjust or modify as required.
There is ton's of info on the WEB about setting suspensions. Here is thread leading to a PDF file that is a good read and there is a form included for recording.
http://www.fjowners.com/index.php?topic=1488.0 (http://www.fjowners.com/index.php?topic=1488.0)
Here is where I bought my spring. http://www.eshocks.com/hyp_make.asp (http://www.eshocks.com/hyp_make.asp) To convert lbs to kg/mm divide by 56.
Example: 800 lb spring = 14.285 kg/mm
Just as a curiosity question what is the spring rate of your Goldwing shock to start with ?
George
Joe,
You need to take the spring off and track the swing arm travel from the shock bottoming to top out. Then set the shock travel at about 2/3 compression and 1/3 rebound. (about 2/3 of the shaft sticking out)
You need more compression stroke of the shock than rebound due to gravity and that should be a good starting point. Then you need to install the spring and start testing to work out the correct spring rate based on the shock travel.
Does the shock have the large rubber bump stop at the yoke to prevent full compression?
Randy - RPM
Randy,
I will indeed remove the spring and determine the full range of swing arm travel. The shock does have a urethane bump stop at the bottom of the shock rod.
Joe
Quote from: racerrad8 on January 04, 2014, 12:42:44 PM
Quote from: Dan Filetti on January 04, 2014, 07:32:42 AM
A couple of questions: Would you mind taking a stab at more specifically, how many miles, and how long? Also, regarding your extended tire wear, I forget, do you also have the RPM Valves up front, or something else? I did not go back through the thread so that second answer may well be there.
Well, Mike received the second shock ever made when the testing process started. He has put over 25K on the rear shock in a multitude of different valving settings as well as spring rates.
Yes, he does have the RPM fork valves too which were also tested and variety of ways as well. He probably has close to 35-40K on the front fork valves.
I do believe the rear shock has only just now changed over to the third tire and was changed more due to tread design that were as he lives in a snowy region and he wanted to make sure he had plenty of grip.
I am sure he will come along later with more details.
Randy - RPM
FYI, my RPM shock has now covered over 10,000km mostly very rough high speed roads (I also have front RPM emulators). For a single rider the standard 750lb?? spring was perfect but since the other half is joining me for the FJ rally in March, I had to fit the 850lb spring which I am using currently. I am using the 850lb spring for general riding for now(till after the rally) and even though it rides well it is a bit "choppy" over very rough sections of the road (over 120KPH through bends).
Originally my 1989 FJ was/is (Randy was going to change it but I'll be damned if I'll send it back now) fitted with the 1992 Shock which has a slightly different linkage setup
The beaut part of the RPM shock is that it doesn't change its character after hard riding whereas other shocks I had, change after a period of time. Combined with the front emulators the ride is nothing short of fantastic. The other thing I have to add, is that the RPM shock looks /feels like it would last forever whereas other shocks (with the way I ride) tend to feel worn after around >30,000kms.
As for tyre wear, unfortunately I changed to a new profile (softer) tyre when I got the RPM shock, so I can't comment on that issue.
Happy New Year to you all. :drinks: :gamer:
Quote from: Mike Ramos on January 04, 2014, 03:54:49 AM
Which leads to another (perhaps not previously addressed) aspect of the RPM suspension: the increase in tire life.
I am changing out my tires at 12,000 + miles - the set I had for the above travels I was using the soft compound Michelin Pilot Power 3. While there was still life left in them I have recently installed Pilot Road 3's for the winter riding. Prior to using the components offered by the gentleman from RPM, tires were worn out at a considerably faster rate, especially the front which often would wear unevenly.
To me improve the suspension of my bikes is getting riding more confidence and safer but the consequence is that I ride FASTER with less effort, so the tyre life is SHORTER
Mike: ok, the tyre life expectancy is much better due to suspension in an OE FJ 1200 than in a ZXR750J with hard rock rear shock, i.e., but the improvements in your FJ can´t do too much difference in tyre wear... unless so "feel" more confidence but you ride slower
Let me explain with a clear example from myself: my Honda CBX 750 F2. Like there is no too much tyre choice, I fit BT45 since day 1. I´ve been improving the bike step by step. No radical changes: I´ve kept OE rims, suspension, brakes...in order to maintain the originality (it is the only one BolDor registered ever in Spain) but with subtle mods to do it more capable
1st set: 12.000 kms. This period included the bike rebuilt and the built in period
2nd set: improving the bike bit a bit. 6.000 kms
3rd set: the actual one. Take a look at the front tyre with less than 4.000 kms
(http://i1133.photobucket.com/albums/m589/fj1200alf/BT45_zps2cd2e7ca.jpg) (http://s1133.photobucket.com/user/fj1200alf/media/BT45_zps2cd2e7ca.jpg.html)
I ride now FASTER, safer and more confident... and it is not a personal feeling. The stop watch don´t lie. The difference is awesome. So the consequence is that the tyre life has been DECREASED, not increased
I'm back with some raw data.........I took the spring off the shock and lowered the rear until it was on the bump stop to get my measurement of full swing arm travel. Then I put the stock Goldwing spring back on the shock and bolted it back on the mounts and then got the full droop measurement. It works out to 117 mm of swing arm travel. 33% of that gives me a sag figure of 38.6 mm. With no preload on the spring, I got a sag of 70mm with me on board. With full preload cranked up I got a sag measurement of 43 mm. I can't wait until I can get some test miles on it and see how it goes. I still have the stiffer spring if that seems necessary. With the salt and sand the highway dept. has put down this last week, serious testing is going to have to wait. I'm kinda allergic to road rash........
Joe
Sounds like a good start. You might want to up your spring rate if you run with bags or two up. Keep up the good work.
George
Ok, here is a little more data.
Today I took the shock off and swapped the Progressive Suspension spring back on to it and checked sag.
With no preload I got 52 mm of sag. With the preload adjuster at "Driver" preload, 49 mm of sag and at full preload I got 24 mm of sag. Now that is without a battery, soft saddle bags, or my gear, so those things need to be added before I can have any definitive numbers but this spring has my target sag of 38 mm in the middle of its range. I hope to get some test rides in this week after work.
Quote from: Country Joe on January 12, 2014, 08:50:54 PM
Ok, here is a little more data.
Today I took the shock off and swapped the Progressive Suspension spring back on to it and checked sag.
With no preload I got 52 mm of sag. With the preload adjuster at "Driver" preload, 49 mm of sag and at full preload I got 24 mm of sag. Now that is without a battery, soft saddle bags, or my gear, so those things need to be added before I can have any definitive numbers but this spring has my target sag of 38 mm in the middle of its range. I hope to get some test rides in this week after work.
Looks like you are getting zero'd in. Seems in range. Time to ride....
George
As George said, it's time to ride. The weather was pretty decent last Saturday afternoon, so I suited up and went out for a ride. The first impression of the shock was it being much firmer than the stock one, yet not harsh. The back road out of the neighborhood is a poorly done chip seal road that has some winter damage showing. It is probably the worst road surface I will ride on short of a cow trail....the OEM Shock was much harsher feeling due to a lack of damping, topping out on the larger bumps.
Getting out on a good highway surface, the first thing I noticed was a lot less squat when hammering the throttle. The next test is a bridge that has a fairly large bump on both approaches. Previously I would get a noticeable hop going on to the bridge, now the bump is absorbed with no hop sideways as before.
I tried 2 max effort stops from 70 mph, I did not detect any street sweeping from the rear end, but a new set of front springs and fork valves from RPM will likely be my next purchase. The soggy front end has to be cured to bring both ends a little more into balance with each other.
Overall, I am pleased with it so far, but more test rides are forthcoming.
Joe
I got a chance to go for a ride with a riding buddy of mine yesterday. He lives about an hour south of me and has a winter time riding area that doesn't get nearly as much sand put on the roads as we do up here. Many of the roads up in the Ozarks still have dangerous amounts of sand on them to be taking part in,ummmmm...."spirited riding". I did get out for a ride by myself last Thursday up in the hills and had a crosswind encounter that I will hopefully never experience again. I was on Hwy. 16 headed east for home, leaned over in a right hand sweeper, and came to a gap in the trees at the top of a valley. I have no idea how high the wind speed was through that funnel, but it shoved me from the right wheel track all the way to the center yellow lines. My lean angle didn't change one degree, it just felt like I was shoved sideways by a giant hand. I didn't have any warning of the crosswind area, but I sure took it as a warning to slow my dumb ass down.
Anyway, to get to the point of doing an update here, Bob and I rode to the top of Petit Jean Mountain (I will post up some pics later) then made our way down to Hwy. 7 south of Russellville. What a fun stretch of road, I think it's even better than Hwy. 7 north of I-40 to Harrison.
In regard to the Goldwing shock, I dropped the preload to the minimum setting and think for just my 198 lbs and lightly loaded saddlebags, that seems to work the best. I guess the impression I am left with this mod is that I have not found any dangerous behavior, uncomfortable ride or anything else that is noticeable. I can now focus on my lines and the road ahead and not be concerned with wallowing, bottoming out or crow hopping from it topping out. I'm pretty satisfied with it for what I have in it. YMMV.
Sounds good. Yes wind sheer can get interesting. Encountered it in flying and with the RV frequent enough to respect it.
What spring rate did you end up with ?
George
George,
I am using the Progressive Suspension 1000/1200 lb/in spring.
Quote from: Country Joe on February 22, 2014, 04:16:38 PM
George,
I am using the Progressive Suspension 1000/1200 lb/in spring.
Thanks. I am running 950 Lb straight rate. I am in good SAG spec at max preload. That's in gear 225 lb, full fuel, tank bag, and 16 Lb simulated load on the rack. Thinking about going to a 1050 lb spring hoping it will get me mid range on the preload setting next time I have the shock out. Hope the information adds to the data. :good2:
George
George,
I probably could have gotten away with the 900 lb/in OEM spring if I was going to be the only one on the bike, but when my teenage son got on the back, I knew there was no way that one was going to work. I'm working on a secondary chassis brace to carry some of the twisting forces acting on the upper shock mount, I haven't started on it yet but it should be fairly simple to implement.
Joe
Quote from: Country Joe on February 22, 2014, 08:12:58 PM
George,
I probably could have gotten away with the 900 lb/in OEM spring if I was going to be the only one on the bike, but when my teenage son got on the back, I knew there was no way that one was going to work. I'm working on a secondary chassis brace to carry some of the twisting forces acting on the upper shock mount, I haven't started on it yet but it should be fairly simple to implement.
Joe
Thanks for the info Joe. Do you think that twisting forces are going to cause a problem? I gather it has been seen but I wonder if the bikes were severely mistreated. Stock FJ springs go as high as about 1200 Lbs from what I have been able to find out. I checked my upper mount carefully for corrosion, cracks etc and found no problem. That said there has been at least 3 frame related cracking issues on the forum in the last year (probably more). With aging bikes I guess it is an area of additional periodic inspection.
Let us know what you come up with. Keep up the good work.
George
Just got through with a group ride last Saturday, I met a group of Yamaha FZ 1 riders at the Hub in Marble Falls, AR. I put about 400 miles under the tires by the end of the day. The ride leader was a local guy that lives in Marble Falls, he and his significant other was on a VFR 1200. The others in our group were on 2 first gen FZ1s and a Kawasaki Versys. I was pretty amused at their amazement at the antique Yamaha keeping up with the rest of the group. The Versys was the only bike that I had a horsepower advantage over, but that little bike was a terror in the tight stuff. Light weight and gobs of clearance made it very hard for me to keep him in sight.
I just wanted to update my observations on the Goldwing shock. It just never gave me any reason to give it a second thought, whether we were on Hwy.123, running the switchbacks, Hwy. 215 smoking through the sweepers or slabbing it home on I-40. I know some suspension guru (I think it :cray:was either Paul Theide with RaceTech or Max McAlaister with Traxxion Dynamics) said "The best you have riden is the best that you know" Of that I have no doubt. But I am quite satisfied with the results that I am getting out of this swap. I am truly anxious to meet everyone that makes the trip to Arkansas in July, and I am willing to have others ride the Bruise to give me a critique of how well it actually works.
Joe
Thanks for the update. What are you running for forks ?
George
Quote from: movenon on May 14, 2014, 11:39:42 PM
Thanks for the update. What are you running for forks ?
George,
The forks are all stock internally, new bushings and seals, 5 mm higher oil level than the manual calls for, using Dextron II ATF, 2 fender washers on top of the preload spacers, preload adjuster on the middle setting, damper adjuster on the middle setting.
Joe