I picked up a gas tank from a 90 FJ and want to swap it onto my 84. Will it work? I know the petcocks are different but not what the difference is (is it just that one has a handle the other doesn't?), and the 90 has a protective bracket for the fuel filter. I'm wondering if I can cut the bracket off and relocate the filter? Also, what about the vent tube that's on the back end of the tank, under the front of the seat. What is that for?
While the '90 tank will physically fit on your '84, the petcocks are different. The petcocks are different because the fuel delivery systems are different.
The '90's petcock was designed for fuel pump systems and has no shut off feature when used without a fuel pump. You need to be able to shut off your fuel.
The '84 petcock has the fuel shutoff feature (via engine vacuum) but will not fit on the '90 tank. The petcock mounting base is different between the 84 and 90.
A couple of options for fitting a 90 tank on a '84:
1) use the oem petcock on the 90 tank and convert the '84 over to a fuel pump system
2) install a manual lever type petcock on the 90 tank and figure a way to make the lever accessable.
3) use the oem petcock on the '90 tank and install a Pingel Vacuum shut off valve on the fuel line.
I am looking at converting my gravity flow '84 over to a fuel pump system, that way I can install a real honest to God fuel filter in the system (instead of a screen) Something I think will be needed (if not now, then in the near future) as the eathnol blend fuels play havoc with our tanks and fuel systems.
The only way a proper filter will work on a FJ is with a positive displacement fuel pump pulling the fuel through the filter. Just like on the '89 and newer FJ which have a fuel pump and filter.
Head pressure from Gravity flow (84-87FJ's) will not produce enough pressure to push the gas thru the filter, you need a pump.
You can not use a fuel filter on your gravity flow '84, a simple screen: yes, a filter: no. Don't confuse the two.
The '90 tank has a recessed fuel cap with a spiffy feature to drain off any fuel you might spill in this recessed area. The drain stub at the back of the tank is connected to the recessed drain and it's where the hose connects to drain this spilled fuel away from the bike.
Cheers Pat
Quote from: Pat Conlon on November 02, 2013, 03:51:43 PM
While the '90 tank will physically fit on your '84, the petcocks are different. The petcocks are different because the fuel delivery systems are different.
The '90's petcock was designed for fuel pump systems and has no shut off feature when used without a fuel pump. You need to be able to shut off your fuel.
The '84 petcock has the fuel shutoff feature (via engine vacuum) but will not fit on the '90 tank. The petcock mounting base is different between the 84 and 90
A couple of options for fitting a 90 tank on a '84
1) use the oem petcock on the 90 tank and convert the '84 over to a fuel pump system
2) install a manual lever type petcock on the 90 tank and figure a way to make the lever accessable.
3) use the oem petcock on the '90 tank and install a Pingel Vacuum shut off valve on the fuel line.
I am looking at converting my gravity flow '84 over to a fuel pump system, that way I can install a real honest to God fuel filter in the system (instead of a screen) Something I think will be needed (if not now, then in the near future) as the eathnol blend fuels play havoc with our tanks and fuel systems.
The only way a proper filter will work on a FJ is with a positive displacement fuel pump pulling the fuel through the filter. Just like on the '89 and newer FJ which have a fuel pump and filter.
Head pressure from Gravity flow (84-87FJ's) will not produce enough pressure to push the gas thru the filter, you need a pump.
You can not use a fuel filter on your gravity flow '84, a simple screen: yes, a filter: no. Don't confuse the two.
The '90 tank has a recessed fuel cap with a spiffy feature to drain off any fuel you might spill in this recessed area. The drain stub at the back of the tank is connected to the recessed drain and it's where the hose connects to drain this spilled fuel away from the bike.
Cheers Pat
That's awesome info Pat, thanks for taking the time to go in depth. I will check on what the vac valve costs and go from there.
Glad to help.
Quote from: Pat Conlon on November 02, 2013, 03:51:43 PM
While the '90 tank will physically fit on your '84 the petcocks are different.
The '90's petcock was designed for fuel pump systems and has no shut off feature when used without a fuel pump. You need to be able to shut off your fuel.
The '84 petcock has the fuel shutoff feature (via engine vacuum) but will not fit on the '90 tank. The petcock mounting base is different between the 84 and 90
A couple of options for fitting a 90 tank on a '84
1) use the oem petcock on the 90 tank and convert the '84 over to a fuel pump system
2) install a manual lever type petcock on the 90 tank and figure a way to make the lever accessable.
3) use the oem petcock on the '90 tank and install a Pingel Vacuum shut off valve on the fuel line.
I am looking at converting my gravity flow '84 over to a fuel pump system, that way I can install a real honest to God fuel filter in the system (instead of a screen) Something I think will be needed (if not now, then in the near future) as the ethanol blend fuels play havoc with our tanks and fuel systems.
The only way a proper filter will work on a FJ is with a positive displacement fuel pump pulling the fuel through the filter. Just like on the '89 and newer FJ which have a fuel pump and filter.
Head pressure from Gravity flow (84-87FJ's) will not produce enough pressure to push the gas thru the filter, you need a pump.
You can not use a fuel filter on your gravity flow '84, a simple screen: yes, a filter: no. Don't confuse the two.
The '90 tank has a recessed fuel cap with a spiffy feature to drain off any fuel you might spill in this recessed area. The drain stub at the back of the tank is connected to the recessed drain and it's where the hose connects to drain this spilled fuel away from the bike.
Cheers Pat
I vote for #1 :good2: :good2:
The black line/hose you are referring to is a an air vent line. It ends up under your fuel cap providing positive pressure for the flapper valve built into the fuel cap which in turn feeds air pressure into the fuel tank as fuel is used. Also if you over fill fuel it will leak out of it. If you want to use your ignition key with your new gas cap PM me and I can probably help you do that.
As just an opinion, some remove the flapper valve. I personally wouldn't recommend it. Ethanol manufactures strongly recommend to store the fuel in an air tight environment. The alcohol in it is a water magnet and will absorb water from ambient air. The local small engine shop ran an informal test with a jar of sealed ethanol and an unsealed jar of ethanol and after 6 months the sealed jar was still clear and the other a dirty brown color. As a note they don't recommend storing ethanol for more than 90 days.
Why do you want to relocate the filter location Paul ? If you run a filter you will probably need a fuel pump.. Also as a note the 1990 petcock uses 7mm/ 1/4inch fuel line.
George
Quote from: movenon on November 02, 2013, 04:44:13 PM
Quote from: Pat Conlon on November 02, 2013, 03:51:43 PM
While the '90 tank will physically fit on your '84 the petcocks are different.
The '90's petcock was designed for fuel pump systems and has no shut off feature when used without a fuel pump. You need to be able to shut off your fuel.
The '84 petcock has the fuel shutoff feature (via engine vacuum) but will not fit on the '90 tank. The petcock mounting base is different between the 84 and 90
A couple of options for fitting a 90 tank on a '84
1) use the oem petcock on the 90 tank and convert the '84 over to a fuel pump system
2) install a manual lever type petcock on the 90 tank and figure a way to make the lever accessable.
3) use the oem petcock on the '90 tank and install a Pingel Vacuum shut off valve on the fuel line.
I am looking at converting my gravity flow '84 over to a fuel pump system, that way I can install a real honest to God fuel filter in the system (instead of a screen) Something I think will be needed (if not now, then in the near future) as the ethanol blend fuels play havoc with our tanks and fuel systems.
The only way a proper filter will work on a FJ is with a positive displacement fuel pump pulling the fuel through the filter. Just like on the '89 and newer FJ which have a fuel pump and filter.
Head pressure from Gravity flow (84-87FJ's) will not produce enough pressure to push the gas thru the filter, you need a pump.
You can not use a fuel filter on your gravity flow '84, a simple screen: yes, a filter: no. Don't confuse the two.
The '90 tank has a recessed fuel cap with a spiffy feature to drain off any fuel you might spill in this recessed area. The drain stub at the back of the tank is connected to the recessed drain and it's where the hose connects to drain this spilled fuel away from the bike.
Cheers Pat
I vote for #1 :good2: :good2:
The black line/hose you are referring to is a an air vent line. It ends up under your fuel cap providing positive pressure for the flapper valve built into the fuel cap which in turn feeds air pressure into the fuel tank as fuel is used. Also if you over fill fuel it will leak out of it. If you want to use your ignition key with your new gas cap PM me and I can probably help you do that.
As just an opinion, some remove the flapper valve. I personally wouldn't recommend it. Ethanol manufactures strongly recommend to store the fuel in an air tight environment. The alcohol in it is a water magnet and will absorb water from ambient air. The local small engine shop ran an informal test with a jar of sealed ethanol and an unsealed jar of ethanol and after 6 months the sealed jar was still clear and the other a dirty brown color. As a note they don't recommend storing ethanol for more than 90 days.
Why do you want to relocate the filter location Paul ? If you run a filter you will probably need a fuel pump.. Also as a note the 1990 petcock uses 7mm/ 1/4inch fuel line.
George
My bike doesn't have the clearance for the filter mounting bracket, so for the tank to work I'd have to remove it. I did notice that the petcock mounting boss is the same size on both tanks, but the petcocks are physically different (the 90 is smaller). One option could be to elongate the petcock opening and drill/tap a new mounting hole for the 84 petcock.
Quote from: Pat Conlon on November 02, 2013, 04:23:27 PM
Glad to help.
What kind of fuel pressure does an FJ fuel pump put out? Can a regular universal type inline fuel pump be used?
George is the guy to answer this question.......
Quote from: Paul1965 on November 02, 2013, 05:09:08 PM
.........I did notice that the petcock mounting boss is the same size on both tanks, but the petcocks are physically different (the 90 is smaller). One option could be to elongate the petcock opening and drill/tap a new mounting hole for the 84 petcock.
You know, now that I think about it, if you can do this ^^ it would be your best option.
I forgot that the '90's petcock and fuel line are only 1/4", which is (obviously) just fine for fuel pumps...
You see that the 84's gravity flow petcock outlet and fuel line are larger...around 3/8" or so...
I would be worried about starving my fuel bowls (at high rpm) with a gravity flow system running on low head pressure (from a low fuel level in the tank) and fed by a fuel delivery system choked down to 1/4"
Take pictures for us...show us the way.....Oh yea, Don't forget to safety wire that '84 petcock. Cheers. Pat
Quote from: Paul1965 on November 02, 2013, 05:10:51 PM
Quote from: Pat Conlon on November 02, 2013, 04:23:27 PM
Glad to help.
What kind of fuel pressure does an FJ fuel pump put out? Can a regular universal type inline fuel pump be used?
Its a low pressure pump. I haven't measured the pressure so I can't give you an exact answer. Randy has a pump listed on his sight and there are a number of aftermarket pumps that will work. Randy's indicates 2.5 to 4 PSI.
http://www.rpmracingca.com/proddetail.asp?prod=fuelsystem%3AFP (http://www.rpmracingca.com/proddetail.asp?prod=fuelsystem%3AFP)
Here is a link to a KTM site they change there Mitsubishi pump for a Facet 40171. A lot of other bikes have used this pumps also.
http://www.ktm950.info/how/Orange%20Garage/Engine/fuel_pump/facet_40171/facet_40171_install.html (http://www.ktm950.info/how/Orange%20Garage/Engine/fuel_pump/facet_40171/facet_40171_install.html)
Here are some spec's. They sell the pumps for less than 50.00. And the filters are cheap at less than 10.00. (also the filter screws into the pump so it wouldn't be under your tank. If you convert you should install a fuel pump relay. The 40171 has a fuel shut off built in when no power is on the pump which is a must feature.
http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/eppages/facetpumps.php (http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/eppages/facetpumps.php)
Here is a good thread to read also.
http://www.fjowners.com/index.php?topic=9724.0 (http://www.fjowners.com/index.php?topic=9724.0)
More to study and I will get back on to the other project next week Paul... I get distracted easy..... :good2:
George
Oh and into the mix of things Paul. The carb needle and seat valves in the fuel pump models are a smaller diameter.
1.5mm for fuel pump vs 2.3mm for gravity feed.
http://www.rpmracingca.com/products.asp?cat=24&pg=3 (http://www.rpmracingca.com/products.asp?cat=24&pg=3)
I am guessing for a parts list to convert would be:
Fuel pump
Filter
Fuel pump relay
7mm / 1/4 inch fuel line
4 needle and seat valves
For a start anyhow. :good2: You should look into the fuel inputs at the carbs also.
George
Quote from: movenon on November 02, 2013, 06:05:57 PM
Oh and into the mix of things Paul. The carb needle and seat valves in the fuel pump models are a smaller diameter.
1.5mm for fuel pump vs 2.3mm for gravity feed.
http://www.rpmracingca.com/products.asp?cat=24&pg=3 (http://www.rpmracingca.com/products.asp?cat=24&pg=3)
I am guessing for a parts list to convert would be:
Fuel pump
Filter
Fuel pump relay
7mm / 1/4 inch fuel line
4 needle and seat valves
For a start anyhow. :good2: You should look into the fuel inputs at the carbs also.
George
Well this is looking like it will be a lot more work than I care for. I found some pretty decent priced fuel pumps on eBay, but I think the best option is to try modifying the 90 tank to accept the 84 petcock instead as I really don't feel like messing with the carbs.
Thanks to everyone for all the valuable info!
Pictures, pictures! :good: (we will put them in the Files for future reference)
Someone needs to work out all the details. For the fuel pump conversion. And post it up so, I can convert my 86 over to a pump. (popcorn)
I'm so sick of having to clean out tiny bits of varnish that get in my carbs every couple hundred miles. I've cleaned the tank out three times. But it still keeps happening. :dash2: :dash2: :dash2:
Quote from: giantkiller on November 02, 2013, 08:15:54 PM
Someone needs to work out all the details. For the fuel pump conversion. And post it up so, I can convert my 86 over to a pump. (popcorn)
I'm so sick of having to clean out tiny bits of varnish that get in my carbs every couple hundred miles. I've cleaned the tank out three times. But it still keeps happening. :dash2: :dash2: :dash2:
Nice hijack.
Quote from: giantkiller on November 02, 2013, 08:15:54 PM
Someone needs to work out all the details. For the fuel pump conversion. And post it up so, I can convert my 86 over to a pump. (popcorn)
I'm so sick of having to clean out tiny bits of varnish that get in my carbs every couple hundred miles. I've cleaned the tank out three times. But it still keeps happening. :dash2: :dash2: :dash2:
Yes, and that someone is YOU. All the information has been posted a number of times under various topic headings.
Stop being so lazy, expecting others to do the work for you.
Put it all together. Then post it for others.
Arnie
No hijack just joining in on fuel pump conversion talk. I tried a filter, could only get about 2 gallons out! Of the tank. Before! It would run low in the float bowls and stall. First time in Chicago rush hour traffic.
I did a manual petcock on my 86 I just folded the screen over on the upper vent on the side panel for access
Not lazy just too many other projects going on right now, working on better fork extensions for gsxr front conversion
I have a 89'/90' tank on my 87'. Currently I have a small ball valve inline on the fuel line to turn the fuel off when not running. The bike came this way from the previous owner. I have found a vacuum actuated fuel pump that I am going to purchase. This may be an option for you and other members.
http://www.fjcatalogue.com/catalog/item/7220095/7430748.htm (http://www.fjcatalogue.com/catalog/item/7220095/7430748.htm)
(http://i119.photobucket.com/albums/o145/aviationfred/fuel_pump_vac_zps779614e1.jpg) (http://s119.photobucket.com/user/aviationfred/media/fuel_pump_vac_zps779614e1.jpg.html)
Fred
Quote from: aviationfred on November 03, 2013, 10:03:36 PM
I have a 89'/90' tank on my 87'. Currently I have a small ball valve inline on the fuel line to turn the fuel off when not running. The bike came this way from the previous owner. I have found a vacuum actuated fuel pump that I am going to purchase. This may be an option for you and other members.
http://www.fjcatalogue.com/catalog/item/7220095/7430748.htm (http://www.fjcatalogue.com/catalog/item/7220095/7430748.htm)
(http://i119.photobucket.com/albums/o145/aviationfred/fuel_pump_vac_zps779614e1.jpg) (http://s119.photobucket.com/user/aviationfred/media/fuel_pump_vac_zps779614e1.jpg.html)
Fred
Let us know how that pump turns out. I have seen them but haven't been able to see any spec's. beyond the pump rate. Had a street rod with vacuum wipers once, ran pretty good when I got off the throttle at high vacuum :biggrin:
I like how the electric pump on my '92 starts filling the bowls the moment I turn the key on...before I start the engine (before any engine vacuum)
Sure makes start up a snap.
Quote from: aviationfred on November 03, 2013, 10:03:36 PM
I have a 89'/90' tank on my 87'. Currently I have a small ball valve inline on the fuel line to turn the fuel off when not running. The bike came this way from the previous owner. I have found a vacuum actuated fuel pump that I am going to purchase. This may be an option for you and other members.
http://www.fjcatalogue.com/catalog/item/7220095/7430748.htm (http://www.fjcatalogue.com/catalog/item/7220095/7430748.htm)
(http://i119.photobucket.com/albums/o145/aviationfred/fuel_pump_vac_zps779614e1.jpg) (http://s119.photobucket.com/user/aviationfred/media/fuel_pump_vac_zps779614e1.jpg.html)
Fred
Thanks for the link Fred. I'm going to take a good look at modifying the 90 tank to accept my 84 petcock though first and go from there. If I can enlarge the opening and still properly secure the petcock without any leaks, I'm more than happy with a gravity fed fuel supply. The bike is at the body shop for some light body work then a respray over the winter, so I've got plenty of time to make something work :smile:
Well, I flipped both tanks over and pulled the petcocks to do a comparison. As I suspected, there is no easy way to make the 84 work in the 90 tank. While the mounting boss is the same size, the mounting nuts are an integral part of the tank being welded on the inside. Also, even if I could enlarge the smaller opening, there's not enough metal to be able to drill and tap a new hole to bolt the larger petcock in.
(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/40306287/20131109_092250.jpg)
(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/40306287/20131109_092245.jpg)
So my next question is this: If I go the route of installing a fuel pump that's rated at 2.5-4.5 GPH (http://www.ebay.com/itm/281195195463?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1438.l2649 (http://www.ebay.com/itm/281195195463?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1438.l2649)), what risk do I run if I don't swap over the needle and seats? I have absolutely no issues doing the fuel pump install, but I haven't had a carb apart in years let alone 4 of them!
You will risk flooding your bike.
Short answer: The float needle wll not be able to close due to the higher system pressure exerted by the pump.
Background: The floats exert only a certain amount of pressure on the float needle and that needle mates with the seat to shut off the gas. The gravity flow fuel system uses a larger diameter opening in the needle seat because the system pressure is lower than the fuel pump system. The fuel pump system has a higher line pressure than the gravity flow, and uses a smaller diameter float needle seat opening.
Pressurized fuel (via fuel pump) flowing thru the larger diameter opening in the needle seat can overwhelm the float needle, holding the needle off the seat, causing flooding.
We have had forum members use the small (fuel pump) needle seats on lower pressure gravity flow applications but never the opposite, large needle seats on a fuel pump.
Float needle seats are cheap and easy to install....just do it, besides, should be ready for new needle seat O rings anyway.
For me....the jury is out on that eBay fuel pump. Why don't you follow George's recommendation?
Quote from: Pat Conlon on November 09, 2013, 12:57:13 PM
You will risk flooding your bike.
Short answer: The float needle wll not be able to close due to the higher system pressure exerted by the pump.
Background: The floats exert only a certain amount of pressure on the float needle and that needle mates with the seat to shut off the gas. The gravity flow fuel system uses a larger diameter opening in the needle seat because the system pressure is lower than the fuel pump system. The fuel pump system has a higher line pressure than the gravity flow, and uses a smaller diameter float needle seat opening.
Pressurized fuel (via fuel pump) flowing thru the larger diameter opening in the needle seat can overwhelm the float needle, holding the needle off the seat, causing flooding.
We have had forum members use the small (fuel pump) needle seats on lower pressure gravity flow applications but never the opposite, large needle seats on a fuel pump.
Float needle seats are cheap and easy to install....just do it, besides, should be ready for new needle seat O rings anyway.
For me....the jury is out on that eBay fuel pump. Why don't you follow George's recommendation?
I was talking to the Flying Scottsman about this and figured flooding would be an issue, as the bike can't burn all the gas the pump would be supplying. As far as following George's recommendation, I guess I haven't because I haven't really figured out what the hell I want to do yet :lol:
I really want to use the 90 tank yet I need to keep things within budget.
It's not to hard to change out the needle and seats. Change out the O rings. I have a few Viton Orings (7.1 x 1.6mm) if you need 4 let me know I will send you 4. What else you going to do this winter? :wacko3: That's a killer price on that pump Paul. I wonder about what appears to be the plastic output nipple.
George
Quote from: movenon on November 09, 2013, 03:36:18 PM
It's not to hard to change out the needle and seats. Change out the O rings. I have a few Viton Orings (7.1 x 1.6mm) if you need 4 let me know I will send you 4. What else you going to do this winter? :wacko3: That's a killer price on that pump Paul. I wonder about what appears to be the plastic output nipple.
George
Hey George. No doubt that's a good price, but of course the question is what kind of quality is it. I've also got this one I'm watching that's at least all metal http://www.ebay.com/itm/200876052936?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1438.l2649. (http://www.ebay.com/itm/200876052936?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1438.l2649.) I found a set of needles and seats for around $50 shipped, but then I also found a Facet 40106 pump that only flows under 2.5 PSI at 17 GPH, so I'm wondering if that wouldn't work with my stock carb setup. I looked around for the vacuum fuel pump you linked to earlier, but they're all overseas. I'm hesitant to buy like that because generally if you have a problem, you're up that well know creek without a paddle. At least I have all winter to get a handle on what I want to do. However the longer I take to get the tank working the longer it will be before the FJ is all painted :biggrin:
Quote from: Paul1965 on November 09, 2013, 05:25:59 PM
Quote from: movenon on November 09, 2013, 03:36:18 PM
It's not to hard to change out the needle and seats. Change out the O rings. I have a few Viton Orings (7.1 x 1.6mm) if you need 4 let me know I will send you 4. What else you going to do this winter? :wacko3: That's a killer price on that pump Paul. I wonder about what appears to be the plastic output nipple.
George
Hey George. No doubt that's a good price, but of course the question is what kind of quality is it. I've also got this one I'm watching that's at least all metal http://www.ebay.com/itm/200876052936?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1438.l2649. (http://www.ebay.com/itm/200876052936?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1438.l2649.) I found a set of needles and seats for around $50 shipped, but then I also found a Facet 40106 pump that only flows under 2.5 PSI at 17 GPH, so I'm wondering if that wouldn't work with my stock carb setup. I looked around for the vacuum fuel pump you linked to earlier, but they're all overseas. I'm hesitant to buy like that because generally if you have a problem, you're up that well know creek without a paddle. At least I have all winter to get a handle on what I want to do. However the longer I take to get the tank working the longer it will be before the FJ is all painted :biggrin:
I know about projects.... Check the spec's on the Facet 40106... http://www.facet-purolator.com/cube-fuel-pumps.php (http://www.facet-purolator.com/cube-fuel-pumps.php) The pump needs to shut off fuel flow with no power on it. It's an important feature. You can't or shouldn't rely on the needle and seats to do that job. Look at the 40717 spec.
Here is a Facet Posi-Flo spec sheet http://www.facet-purolator.com/posi-flo-pumps.php (http://www.facet-purolator.com/posi-flo-pumps.php) check out the 60300.
Also RPM's pump http://www.rpmracingca.com/proddetail.asp?prod=fuelsystem%3AFP (http://www.rpmracingca.com/proddetail.asp?prod=fuelsystem%3AFP). Make sure it has the fuel shut off feature.
As a note NAPA can get and sometimes stock Facet pumps. Cheaper on line but on the road its nice to know.
Read this thread http://www.fjowners.com/index.php?topic=9724.0 (http://www.fjowners.com/index.php?topic=9724.0)
George
Paul I have a box of carb parts in my garage I might have the n/s you need.If nothing else you could look at them and see whats up.I hope to be pulling the engine out of the Civic in the next few days I think I have a buyer for it.I can help you with your carbs if you need help but im sure you can do it once you take a look at them.I know where to get mikuni parts in elgin if need be as well.I have bought jets there a couple of times.
Quote from: Flying Scotsman on November 09, 2013, 07:23:34 PM
Paul I have a box of carb parts in my garage I might have the n/s you need.If nothing else you could look at them and see whats up.I hope to be pulling the engine out of the Civic in the next few days I think I have a buyer for it.I can help you with your carbs if you need help but im sure you can do it once you take a look at them.I know where to get mikuni parts in elgin if need be as well.I have bought jets there a couple of times.
Thanks Scott, I think I saw that box of parts lol...If you need some help pulling the engine let me know.
George, thanks for the reminder on the shut-off. Having been in the automotive field for 30+ plus years, I'm use to a fuel pump that stops when you kill the ignition.
Quote from: Paul1965 on November 09, 2013, 07:32:41 PM
George, thanks for the reminder on the shut-off. Having been in the automotive field for 30+ plus years, I'm use to a fuel pump that stops when you kill the ignition.
No, that's not what he is referring to. When the pump is electrically shut off, the pump internals should hold back the gravity weight of the fuel from the tank. In other words, when shut off, no gas should dribble from the pump.
Quote from: Pat Conlon on November 09, 2013, 07:44:01 PM
Quote from: Paul1965 on November 09, 2013, 07:32:41 PM
George, thanks for the reminder on the shut-off. Having been in the automotive field for 30+ plus years, I'm use to a fuel pump that stops when you kill the ignition.
No, that's not what he is referring to. When the pump is electrically shut off, the pump internals should hold back the gravity weight of the fuel from the tank. In other words, when shut off, no gas should dribble from the pump.
Actually that's what I meant, I just didn't say it right :good:
Quote from: Paul1965 on November 09, 2013, 07:32:41 PM
Quote from: Flying Scotsman on November 09, 2013, 07:23:34 PM
Paul I have a box of carb parts in my garage I might have the n/s you need.If nothing else you could look at them and see whats up.I hope to be pulling the engine out of the Civic in the next few days I think I have a buyer for it.I can help you with your carbs if you need help but im sure you can do it once you take a look at them.I know where to get mikuni parts in elgin if need be as well.I have bought jets there a couple of times.
Thanks Scott, I think I saw that box of parts lol...If you need some help pulling the engine let me know.
George, thanks for the reminder on the shut-off. Having been in the automotive field for 30+ plus years, I'm use to a fuel pump that stops when you kill the ignition.
Not just stop, but a check valve preventing fuel flow. Not a problem with cars because the fuel is located below the pump. I know you are aware of all this I just wanted to make the statement clear :good2:
Here is a good if not the best link on the carbs http://www.fjowners.com/index.php?topic=4281.0 (http://www.fjowners.com/index.php?topic=4281.0)...
George :drinks:
Thanks Pat you were quicker than me :good2:
...and the fuel pump I sell does that; stops fuel flow.
Randy - RPM
Quote from: racerrad8 on November 09, 2013, 09:01:12 PM
...and the fuel pump I sell does that; stops fuel flow.
Randy - RPM
True, but if I'm going to attempt to keep my stock carb setup, yours will flow too much (and sorry, it's also outside of my budget). I think my best bet for now is to measure the flow of the stock petcock (unless someone already knows it) and try to match a pump up to that.
Quote from: Paul1965 on November 10, 2013, 09:29:50 AM
Quote from: racerrad8 on November 09, 2013, 09:01:12 PM
...and the fuel pump I sell does that; stops fuel flow.
Randy - RPM
True, but if I'm going to attempt to keep my stock carb setup, yours will flow too much (and sorry, it's also outside of my budget). I think my best bet for now is to measure the flow of the stock petcock (unless someone already knows it) and try to match a pump up to that.
At my best "WAG" a gravity feed tank in an FJ is probably doing good to deliver .2 to .4 PSI. Not much. I think a number of .4 lbs at 1 foot fuel tank height was an estimate. The FJ has less height than that.
As far as the volume or rate ? Another WAG way of looking at things. Can you totally empty your fuel tank in 1 hour of running ? That's about 5.5 gallons ?
There is a lot more to it than that. We are just talking steady rate of flow. But anyhow it would be hard to use 5 gallons of fuel in an hour with the typical FJ rider. But you could build in a WAG factor for that... Skymasters is going to love this "engineering" :rofl2: Farmers way of looking at things....
Paul if is any help I have 4 needle and seats out of my carbs from when I rebuilt them that I can give you. They were not leaking in my carbs I just replaced them because I did a total rebuild. I also can give you 4 new needle and seat O rings (Viton O rings 7.1 x 1.6mm).
George
Quote from: movenon on November 10, 2013, 11:05:13 AM
Quote from: Paul1965 on November 10, 2013, 09:29:50 AM
Quote from: racerrad8 on November 09, 2013, 09:01:12 PM
...and the fuel pump I sell does that; stops fuel flow.
Randy - RPM
True, but if I'm going to attempt to keep my stock carb setup, yours will flow too much (and sorry, it's also outside of my budget). I think my best bet for now is to measure the flow of the stock petcock (unless someone already knows it) and try to match a pump up to that.
At my best "WAG" a gravity feed tank in an FJ is probably doing good to deliver .2 to .4 PSI. Not much. I think a number of .4 lbs at 1 foot fuel tank height was an estimate. The FJ has less height than that.
As far as the volume or rate ? Another WAG way of looking at things. Can you totally empty your fuel tank in 1 hour of running ? That's about 5.5 gallons ?
There is a lot more to it than that. We are just talking steady rate of flow. But anyhow it would be hard to use 5 gallons of fuel in an hour with the typical FJ rider. But you could build in a WAG factor for that... Skymasters is going to love this "engineering" :rofl2: Farmers way of looking at things....
Paul if is any help I have 4 needle and seats out of my carbs from when I rebuilt them that I can give you. They were not leaking in my carbs I just replaced them because I did a total rebuild. I also can give you 4 new needle and seat O rings (Viton O rings 7.1 x 1.6mm).
George
Thanks George, that's very generous of you. But I think I'll get with the Flying Scottsman first since he's local and has already offered up some of his carb parts. If he doesn't have what I need I'll shoot you a PM with an offer, as I really don't want to get something for nothing. You guys have been a tremendous help with this project!
Quote from: Paul1965 on November 10, 2013, 09:29:50 AM
...yours will flow too much
Nope, it has nothing to do with flow. It has to due with the line pressure applied to the float needle tip and the requirement of the smaller needle seat.
Put the new tank on, add in inline electric shut off valve and ride the thing.
Unless you are going to be riding at 100+mph on a sustained basis I doubt you will have any problem.
Randy - RPM
Paul, don't worry about "something for nothing". They are just old back up ones. A couple of years ago I got all new parts from RPM and just rat holed the take out parts. The O rings I special ordered and come in packs of 25... So I used 4 and the rest is just stuff on hand.
George
Quote from: racerrad8 on November 10, 2013, 02:14:11 PM
Quote from: Paul1965 on November 10, 2013, 09:29:50 AM
...yours will flow too much
Nope, it has nothing to do with flow. It has to due with the line pressure applied to the float needle tip and the requirement of the smaller needle seat.
Put the new tank on, add in inline electric shut off valve and ride the thing.
Unless you are going to be riding at 100+mph on a sustained basis I doubt you will have any problem.
Randy - RPM
I think I've come up with a better idea...
Hey Paul. Getting into this a little late, but I'll tell you what I did with my 86. The original tank had some rust and a very poor Kreem tank coating in it. Dropped it on its side in the shop and a little crease in the metal just happened to hit a rusty spot and she started leaking... Did an epoxy gas tank repair and started looking for a new tank. Ebay had only newer model tanks available at the time, so i bought a 91 tank.
If you look at the first picture you posted, you will see 2 spot welds on the flat spot where the petcock mounts. Those welds hold a doubler plate on the inside of the tank with a matching slot and tapped holes to match the petcocks. I drilled out the spot welds on both tanks and removed the doubler plates. I used the existing front hole, elongated the slot and drilled a new hole in the thin metal tank and two holes for plug welds. From there I bolted the new doubler in place and plug welded it in. A little sanding and the fabrication was done. The fuel filter bracket on the bottom of the tank was in the way and had to be cut off as well to fit on the bike.
Of course the paint didn't match, so This was done after I completely stripped the tank with aviation paint stripper. Adapting the petcock was a very small part of the much larger repaint project. It was much easier to adapt the tank to the bike than to adapt the bike to the new tank.
Derek
Quote from: Derek Young on November 12, 2013, 09:09:35 AM
Hey Paul. Getting into this a little late, but I'll tell you what I did with my 86. The original tank had some rust and a very poor Kreem tank coating in it. Dropped it on its side in the shop and a little crease in the metal just happened to hit a rusty spot and she started leaking... Did an epoxy gas tank repair and started looking for a new tank. Ebay had only newer model tanks available at the time, so i bought a 91 tank.
If you look at the first picture you posted, you will see 2 spot welds on the flat spot where the petcock mounts. Those welds hold a doubler plate on the inside of the tank with a matching slot and tapped holes to match the petcocks. I drilled out the spot welds on both tanks and removed the doubler plates. I used the existing front hole, elongated the slot and drilled a new hole in the thin metal tank and two holes for plug welds. From there I bolted the new doubler in place and plug welded it in. A little sanding and the fabrication was done. The fuel filter bracket on the bottom of the tank was in the way and had to be cut off as well to fit on the bike.
Of course the paint didn't match, so This was done after I completely stripped the tank with aviation paint stripper. Adapting the petcock was a very small part of the much larger repaint project. It was much easier to adapt the tank to the bike than to adapt the bike to the new tank.
Derek
Hi Derek, thanks for the great info on how you did the tank mod. However I really don't feel like taking the chance of doing any welding on the gas tank. I think my best option will be to make a simple adapter plate instead and think a piece of 1/4" aluminum stock will work fine. It will have 3 mounting holes, one for the original front screw, one countersunk hole for the original rear mounting screw, then a third for the rear mounting screw of the 84 petcock (the adapter itself will be tapped to accept the rear screw). I should be able to use cork gasket on the tank side of the adapter plate and retain the original rubber seal on the petcock side of the adapter. I think 1/4" stock will be thick enough to drill and tap and get good screw retention. If not, I'll drill a countersink hole on the top side of the rear screw so I can drop a nut into it.
1/4" steel will give you stronger threads but be harder to work with.....
Whatever....you *do not* want that petcock to rattle loose.......kaaaablamm :bomb:
Quote from: Pat Conlon on November 12, 2013, 11:26:44 AM
1/4" steel will give you stronger threads but be harder to work with.....
Whatever....you *do not* want that petcock to rattle loose.......kaaaablamm :bomb:
Ha, no doubt Pat!!!
I also have concerns about leaking. Steel would be a better choice for strength on the threads. Having said that, I have built lots of fuel tanks from aluminum, many of them with fuel gauge sending units that have a bolt flange attaching it to the tank. I usually tack weld a 1/4"plate on the inside of the tank, as many of them are only 1/8"thick, and drill and tap the six small bolt holes. This isn't a huge concern for leakage considering it's located on the top of the tank. On a motorcycle tank, the petcock MUST be sealed...
If you do use aluminum, ensure you follow the tap drill size chart to make sure you have the proper thread depth.
Derek
Quote from: Derek Young on November 13, 2013, 08:28:09 AM
I also have concerns about leaking. Steel would be a better choice for strength on the threads. Having said that, I have built lots of fuel tanks from aluminum, many of them with fuel gauge sending units that have a bolt flange attaching it to the tank. I usually tack weld a 1/4"plate on the inside of the tank, as many of them are only 1/8"thick, and drill and tap the six small bolt holes. This isn't a huge concern for leakage considering it's located on the top of the tank. On a motorcycle tank, the petcock MUST be sealed...
If you do use aluminum, ensure you follow the tap drill size chart to make sure you have the proper thread depth.
Derek
Thanks for the input Derek. I did end up getting a length of 1/4" steel stock instead of aluminum, and I think I've come up with an even better idea. I'm going to try to open up the OE 90 petcock as much as I can, then make an adapter from the steel stock that will bolt up to the OE 84 petcock. That adapter will have nothing more than a 3/8 NPT nipple threaded into it, with a length of hose attaching it to the 90 petcock. Then all I have to do is secure the 84 petcock to the bike and I think I'll be good to go. At least that's what I hope lol!
Well after all the flip flopping I've done, I decided to heed the advice of you guru's and go with a fuel pump setup. I found a good deal on a Facet 40178 pump that should work for what I need. Thanks again to everyone for all the great advice you've given; I'm glad that the majority of the members here are sensible people that are willing to help one another out.
Just wanted to update this thread and let everyone know that the pump and filter showed up last week and I got everything installed Saturday. It was too cold to ride the bike, but it starts and revs great, so hopefully I won't have any issues on the road. I'll go back down to the shop this weekend to tidy things up a bit with the harness I made. Thanks again to everyone for the help!
For those following the thread the Facet fuel pump 40178 and a Facet fuel pump 40171 are the same pump. The only difference is the "171" pump has Packard electrical connectors on the end of the wires and the "178" is just has unterminated wires.
The 40178 pump is also sold through NAPA part number 610-2403 but of course NAPA is more expensive. The "171" and "178" pumps are on-line for less than 50.00. NAPA has there pump priced at 75 - 85.00 in there stores. But if on the road you needed a 171 /178 pump then NAPA would be a player.
Both pumps check the fuel flow with power off in both directions. Positive shut off and anti siphon (check valve). The anti siphon (check valve) is not a feature needed in the FJ's, Facets definition of the check valve is to prevent fuel from draining back down into a fuel tank mounted lower than the carbs, as in a car or truck.
The fuel filter they recommend is a Purolator FEP 735 / NAPA 610-1085 / CarQuest 41506 / Partsmaster FEP 735. It is a 74 micron filter which is fairly course as filters go. A finer filter will drop the pressure to some degree.
As to if the Facet 171 / 178 pump will work out in the FJ (pressure, volume, and reliability) is a question to be answered in the real world. Paul has one on his and I will have one on mine shortly but cold weather slows that process down.
Hope this information helps anyone doing a search on Facet fuel pump.
George
Thanks George. Let us know if good in real world. When weather allows.
Great info at the end here. Is the idea that this pump provides a fuel pressure low enough that you could convert an ambulance FJ into a fuel pump FJ without modifying the carbs? Or did you two end up doing the carb conversion to go along with the pump and this is just a cheap pump?
Also, anyone able to point me to a thread on someone doing the early-to-late carb setup? Considering upgrading to a fuel pump setup on my FJ, trying to figure out what the price would be on that mod. Gettin' real sick of my intermittent petcock issues.
This is a project I was hoping to experiment with. I have a fuel pump from George as well as other bits to connect it. I was first going to just hook it up to the GF carbs to see how well the floats and pins dealt with the pump pressure. Worst case scenario is you need to change out the float pin seats to the smaller diameter, adjust the floats and leave the rest alone (maybe add a fuel filter). However, there is one issue I have concerns with. The pump can be connected to an ignition switched power source. But the FP FJ's have a safety feature. With the ignition on but engine off the pump will only run a few seconds and turn off. Once the engine is running the pump is energized and fills per demand. With the ignition switched power, the pump will be energized as soon as the ignition is on, regardless if the engine is running or not. In this case, fuel could be pumped passed leaking float pins and dumping under your bike without your knowledge. Seems like a recipe for a Flaming Monkey to me.... Makes a good name for a drink though.... Flaming Cocktails 1: Flaming Monkey (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TA11k8Go7KY#ws)
Quote from: FJmonkey on March 24, 2014, 02:05:26 PM
...But the FP FJ's have a safety feature. With the ignition on but engine off the pump will only run a few seconds and turn off. Once the engine is running the pump is energized and fills per demand.
What, there is a built in safety feature of the fuel pump circuit that uses the CDI signal to control the pump if the engine is not running?
Randy - RPM
Quote from: racerrad8 on March 24, 2014, 02:18:55 PM
Quote from: FJmonkey on March 24, 2014, 02:05:26 PM
...But the FP FJ's have a safety feature. With the ignition on but engine off the pump will only run a few seconds and turn off. Once the engine is running the pump is energized and fills per demand.
What, there is a built in safety feature of the fuel pump circuit that uses the CDI signal to control the pump if the engine is not running?
Randy - RPM
Perhaps I am missing something. But it seems like that is the case. On more than one occasion I witnessed a FP bike being primed by turning the key on till the pump stops clicking, then doing that several more times. I have seen this more than once to fill up empty bowls. If that is not the case, then why does the pump keep clicking after the second and following attempts if the bowls are full? If that is not the case then the ignition switched power for the pump is not an issue for the conversion from GF to FP...
another way is to wire the pump through an oil pressure switch. no oil pressure, no power to the pump. easy cheesy.thats a very common method on marine engines.
Scott
Quote from: FJmonkey on March 24, 2014, 02:48:13 PM
Quote from: racerrad8 on March 24, 2014, 02:18:55 PM
Quote from: FJmonkey on March 24, 2014, 02:05:26 PM
...But the FP FJ's have a safety feature. With the ignition on but engine off the pump will only run a few seconds and turn off. Once the engine is running the pump is energized and fills per demand.
What, there is a built in safety feature of the fuel pump circuit that uses the CDI signal to control the pump if the engine is not running?
Randy - RPM
Perhaps I am missing something. But it seems like that is the case. On more than one occasion I witnessed a FP bike being primed by turning the key on till the pump stops clicking, then doing that several more times. I have seen this more than once to fill up empty bowls. If that is not the case, then why does the pump keep clicking after the second and following attempts if the bowls are full? If that is not the case then the ignition switched power for the pump is not an issue for the conversion from GF to FP...
internal pressure switch?
Quote from: FJscott on March 24, 2014, 02:51:41 PM
another way is to wire the pump through an oil pressure switch. no oil pressure, no power to the pump. easy cheesy.thats a very common method on marine engines.
Scott
I had not thought about it much but I like that idea. Along with an out of sight momentary "pump on" button to prime empty bowls for the rare ocassion. :good2:
Quote from: FJmonkey on March 24, 2014, 02:48:13 PM
Perhaps I am missing something. But it seems like that is the case. On more than one occasion I witnessed a FP bike being primed by turning the key on till the pump stops clicking, then doing that several more times. I have seen this more than once to fill up empty bowls. If that is not the case, then why does the pump keep clicking after the second and following attempts if the bowls are full? If that is not the case then the ignition switched power for the pump is not an issue for the conversion from GF to FP...
No, you are correct...
Quote from: FJscott on March 24, 2014, 02:56:17 PM
internal pressure switch?
No, it is a safety feature Yamaha uses incorporating the CDI signal. If there is no CDI spark signal then the pump shuts down after 3-5 seconds.
This is the most important in case of a crash where the engine is no longer running but the ignition is still on to prevent fuel from being just pump through the carbs as the bike lays on its side.
So, if you want to convert a gravity bike to fuel pump the only other option would be to use a low oil pressure switch to shut the pump off when the bike is not running. There will need to be a bypass switch to prime the carbs when they are empty or if the bike has been sitting and the fuel could have evaporated.
The only problem we found with a low oil pressure switch is the FJ idle at around 3-5 lbs when warm. We tried to use them on the cars but with the engine warm & idling the oil pressure was not enough to keep the switch energized and the car would run out of fuel.
Randy - RPM
that would be a good set up for a conversion. I've been reluctant to post my findings on a trial pump I installed on my 92 until enough miles were logged in but I found another fuel pump option. I was in a bind and needed a fuel pump in a hurry. My small town doesn't have a Napa so I couldn't use the pump George has but I took the specs from the Napa pump and found one at Car Quest. It's 30gph @ 3.5-5.5psi it has a ball check in outlet to stop fuel when off. It even fits in the stock FJ pump bracket. It is a rotary vane type pump that comes with a lifetime warranty all for $65. I've logged about 700 miles on it without issues.
Scott
A vacuum switch would work, no vacuum, no pump... Same as the petcock fuel control.
Is this why we have a vacuum line to the CDI? Dave
Quote from: TexasDave on March 24, 2014, 04:00:59 PM
Is this why we have a vacuum line to the CDI? Dave
No
Randy - RPM
Quote from: racerrad8 on March 24, 2014, 03:15:44 PM
This is the most important in case of a crash where the engine is no longer running but the ignition is still on to prevent fuel from being just pump through the carbs as the bike lays on its side.
So, if you want to convert a gravity bike to fuel pump the only other option would be to use a low oil pressure switch to shut the pump off when the bike is not running. There will need to be a bypass switch to prime the carbs when they are empty or if the bike has been sitting and the fuel could have evaporated.
The only problem we found with a low oil pressure switch is the FJ idle at around 3-5 lbs when warm. We tried to use them on the cars but with the engine warm & idling the oil pressure was not enough to keep the switch energized and the car would run out of fuel.
Randy - RPM
If you wish to retain that feature there are other options. Mercury switches, rollover switches, vacuum switches, you can even get inertia switches, they're all cheap and easy to incorporate. You could even run the ignition through it so the engine doesn't have one almighty rev as it slides down the road with no oil pressure. If you wanted to retain the ability to prime the carbs, a simple spring loaded switch bypassing the safety feature would do. Just depress it for the duration of the prime, no chance of leaving it on.
Personally, I wouldn't worry about any of it but if you do, it's easy and simple to overcome without any real complication or expense and the FP would be a nice upgrade.
You could even find a suitable mercury switch at the wreckers. They were popular for bonnet and boot (hood and trunk) lid light switches.
Noel
These switches are required for racing.
They're called tether (http://www.mpsracing.com/products/MPS/hc01.asp) switches.
At my last low side accident, a mercury switch would have save my engine from oil starvation issues as it lay on it side idling, while I'm on my back 20 (long) feet away.
FJ engines do not like that....
Quote from: Pat Conlon on March 25, 2014, 07:24:20 PM
At my last low side accident, a mercury switch would have save my engine from oil starvation issues as it lay on it side idling, while I'm on my back 20 (long) feet away.
FJ engines do not like that....
Not so common these days with more robust engines but I have seen a number of bikes that have run big ends from lying on their side with the engine running and no oil pressure, it doesn't take long.
BTW, your LAST low side?, just how many have you had? You refer to it so casually.
Noel
Low side? Only one on my FJ....
In the '60's, one on a dirt bike (knobby tires on the street, uuuuggh) and don't forget mini bikes....
Quote from: Pat Conlon on March 25, 2014, 07:24:20 PM
At my last low side accident, a mercury switch would have save my engine from oil starvation issues as it lay on it side idling...
Practice kill switch actuation as the bike slides away... :bomb:
Frank
Okay FJ gurus, I need some help. I got a chance to let the bike run for a few minutes today (10 minutes), and it runs way richer than I was anticipating. I swapped out the tank, installed the electric fuel pump and UNI pods but have left my carbs completely stock. What is the most cost effective and quickest way to lean it out? Or is that too stupid of a question to even ask lol! I thought about maybe just restricting the flow of gas after the pump, but I'm afraid that might just jack up the pressure even more and make things worse. The last time I had a Mikuni apart was about 20 years ago and that was on my SkiDoo Mach 1, so I'm not sure what my comfort level is pulling the FJ's apart.
Quote from: Paul1965 on April 19, 2014, 11:28:06 AM
What is the most cost effective and quickest way to lean it out?
You have to change the needle & sets in the carbs to the smaller diameter seat.
Needle & Seat Assy (1.5)(F/Pump) (http://www.rpmracingca.com/proddetail.asp?prod=Carb%3AFloatValveP)
Randy - RPM
Quote from: Paul1965 on April 19, 2014, 11:28:06 AM
left my carbs completely stock.
The needle seats are larger on the stock (Gravity feed) carbs. This means the fuel has a larger surface area (like having more leverage) to push against the needles and floats. The needles and floats may not be closing at the correct level due to the pressure created by the fuel pump. Changing the seats out and resetting float heights might be a good start. Get new O-rings with the new seats. Might as well get new needles while you have the carbs open. And up your idle jets to #40 is also a good mod, the stock jets are too lean on the idle.
Randy beat me to the punch....
Quote from: racerrad8 on April 19, 2014, 11:46:39 AM
Quote from: Paul1965 on April 19, 2014, 11:28:06 AM
What is the most cost effective and quickest way to lean it out?
You have to change the needle & sets in the carbs to the smaller diameter seat.
Needle & Seat Assy (1.5)(F/Pump) (http://www.rpmracingca.com/proddetail.asp?prod=Carb%3AFloatValveP)
Randy - RPM
Thanks Randy/FJMonkey for the speedy replies.
Randy, I was just at your site looking at carbs forgetting how much they went up lol. Would you be kind enough to put together a list of everything I would need for the swap so I can check to see what it will cost? Or is that info posted somewhere already? I would also consider sending them to you for a rebuild depending on the cost and turnaround time.
If you afford it, let Randy do the carbs. I got my back and he fixed a whole bunch of stuff wrong with them that I didn't know about. He sent me photos of the insides, man they were nasty. They have never looked so good, and the bike runs great with the newly rebuilt carbs and Uni filters. :good:
John
New reman carbs arrived today (er, sorry Randy found someone closer to me).
Carbs are installed and so far seems good. I couldn't drive it, but it sure started, idled and revved very nicely. The carbs are from a 1200 and were rejetted and tuned, and are modified for a single inlet fuel system.
Quote from: Paul1965 on May 03, 2014, 10:28:51 PM
The carbs are from a 1200 and were rejetted and tuned, and are modified for a single inlet fuel system.
Quote from: Paul1965 on April 30, 2014, 09:56:40 AM
(er, sorry Randy found someone closer to me).
Paul,
No problem, I hope they work out well for you. I do note by looking at the pictures those are not 1200 carbs, they are 1100 original gravity feed carbs with the fuel pump version center tee added. You can tell flat bottom of the slide as well as the un-shrouded emulsion tubes.
I see they used the original gravity feed fuel tees as well instead of the fuel pump version transfer tubes. Can you tell how was the fuel flow stopped, they appear to have been cut off, but how are they closed off?
Also, you might need to adjust the jetting for a little bit closer for the bike requirements. Those 122.5 main jets are what I use in our race car applications. The smaller 150 air bleed jet also makes the 40 pilot run like a 42.5 as the air side of the mixture has been leaned down from the factory 155.
Did they tell what they did with the needle settings as well?
I am really interested in the blocked off original gravity feed fuel tees.
Randy - RPM
Quote from: racerrad8 on May 03, 2014, 11:32:13 PM
Quote from: Paul1965 on May 03, 2014, 10:28:51 PM
The carbs are from a 1200 and were rejetted and tuned, and are modified for a single inlet fuel system.
Quote from: Paul1965 on April 30, 2014, 09:56:40 AM
(er, sorry Randy found someone closer to me).
Paul,
No problem, I hope they work out well for you. I do note by looking at the pictures those are not 1200 carbs, they are 1100 original gravity feed carbs with the fuel pump version center tee added. You can tell flat bottom of the slide as well as the un-shrouded emulsion tubes.
I see they used the original gravity feed fuel tees as well instead of the fuel pump version transfer tubes. Can you tell how was the fuel flow stopped, they appear to have been cut off, but how are they closed off?
Also, you might need to adjust the jetting for a little bit closer for the bike requirements. Those 122.5 main jets are what I use in our race car applications. The smaller 150 air bleed jet also makes the 40 pilot run like a 42.5 as the air side of the mixture has been leaned down from the factory 155.
Did they tell what they did with the needle settings as well?
I am really interested in the blocked off original gravity feed fuel tees.
Randy - RPM
To be honest, I didn't ask many questions other than how much it cost and how soon I could have them ($395 exchange, the whole process was done in a week). It only cost $18 for me to ship them to MO and they didn't charge to ship me the replacements. I thought Jim had said that these were 1200 carbs but I guess not, since he wouldn't have to convert those to a single inlet. As far as needles go, there's no info on the build sheet he gave me other than that they replaced them. I gave him the specs of my bike and let him set up the carbs, I just took them out of the box and bolted them on. As far as blocking of the ports, I saw a black filler of some type but I don't know specifically what they used. I do know that they pull the carbs apart and do some milling as part of the conversion, and talking to Jim he figured you did the same thing. If you want more info I can reach out to him, or you might even try him yourself (fj1200carburetors.com)
Yes, there is machining required to allow the gravity feed carbs to accept the center tee fitting. The later model carbs use a transfer tube in place of the 10mm fuel tee which were block with the black filler you peak of.
I will talk with Jim the next time he calls to order parts and let him know about the transfers tubes for use in place of the original inlet tees instead of the black filler.
Randy - RPM
Hey Randy, question: when converting from gravity fed over to fuel pump, do you see the need to convert the carbs over to single feed, or will the existing dual feed work ok?
Assuming of course that the needle seats are corrected.
I can see where folks need to convert over to dual feed inlets if wanting to go from fuel pump over to gravity fed....although that would never happen.
I have done them both ways without any issue. It is cheaper to leave them as dual inlet due to the additional machining for the center two carbs to use the center tee.
Randy - RPM
And of course since the tank was a different color and I picked up new lowers, I had to get it all painted :good2:
Here is everything after the 2nd coat of clear went on.