I've been trying the search feature but end up with a lot of posts to sift through. What modifications are usually performed to help make the front brakes actually work better than the rear?
Thank you
~JM~
<begin rant> First and foremost replace those 25 year oem rubber brake lines asap. They are long over due.<end rant>
Blue spot/gold spot (axial mount) calipers made for the Yamaha YZF R-1/R-6, FZ-1, etc, are popular and will bolt right up to your '89 forks. Yamaha made these calipers on these bikes up 'till 2006 (? someone please check me on this) when Yamaha converted over to the radial mount calipers (which won't fit on your FJ)
These superior calipers used with a 14mm master cylinder will give you great front brake modulation, control and feedback. Far superior to oem.
This has been discussed many times, search for 'blue spots' or front brake
Thanks for the info.
I tried a search on "Front Brake" and it came back with 27 pages full of posts. Most of them had nothing to do with the Front Brake. I did see mention of Blue Dot, Gold Dot, Polka Dot, front calipers but not what they were. I was hoping to find a Files Section or FAQ on the front brake system.
I happen to have what I believe is an R6 Master Cylinder, but have not I.D'd it properly yet.
Here it is: (http://i127.photobucket.com/albums/p124/Northwet/1_zpsc554490d.jpg)
Anything else anyone would like to add?
Thank you
~JM~
The picture of the master cylinder you posted is a 'radial' type master cylinder, which is the newer design used on sport bikes.
I can not comment on this because I do not have one installed, so I don't know. I use the 'axial' (conventional) type 14mm master cylinder from a 2004 FZ-1.
Be careful, proper piston sizing is important or you will negate the effects of your upgraded calipers.
Here's a excellent post from Larry, a long time Ducati rider from San Diego on the subject:
http://www.ducati.ms/forums/80-hall-wisdom/27159-conventional-axial-vs-radial-master-cylinders.html (http://www.ducati.ms/forums/80-hall-wisdom/27159-conventional-axial-vs-radial-master-cylinders.html)
I do know, on conventional master cylinders, 14mm seems to be the sweet spot. But Radials? I don't know, other FJ'ers who have a radial m/c can join in here.
We do like to tease those FJ'ers who have master cylinders with 'urine cups' as brake fluid reservoirs, and the pink stripe bikes get a double dose.
I just ordered a 2012 Kawasaki ZX10R master cylinder. The piston bore is 10mm. Once I receive the master cylinder and install it, I will post the results of the braking characteristics.
Fred
Blue dot calipers like Pat said.
I've got this similar MC and lever and like it: http://www.ebay.com/itm/2004-04-YAMAHA-FZ1-FZ1000-FZ-1000-FRONT-BRAKE-MASTER-CYLINDER-NO-RESERVE-NR-/190801142960?pt=Motorcycles_Parts_Accessories&hash=item2c6ca264b0&vxp=mtr#ht_1177wt_932 (http://www.ebay.com/itm/2004-04-YAMAHA-FZ1-FZ1000-FZ-1000-FRONT-BRAKE-MASTER-CYLINDER-NO-RESERVE-NR-/190801142960?pt=Motorcycles_Parts_Accessories&hash=item2c6ca264b0&vxp=mtr#ht_1177wt_932)
Get some new EBC pads in the calipers. Randy at RPM will sell you the right ones.
As mentioned, get rid of the OEM rubber lines and get some good stainless steel braided lines. I like Spiegler brand lines because they are the most user friendly to install.
New disc rotors can't hurt. My original rotors wore out at about 60K. I'm not sure how much mileage you have. I went with the EBC discs and they are fine. A bunch of members here are having the same results with Chinese made wave knockoffs sold on EBay at half the price of the EBC's
EDIT: I just looked at the MC in the ebay link I posted...the lever looks bent to me. Maybe it's not. ? Anyway, there are others on ebay similar to this one. BTW, this MC will give you a 'original equiptment' look with the coffin style MC.
Yep, just did the brake upgrade with blue-dots and an FZ-1 master. The color refers to the anodizing of the centers of the brake calipers, it's age dependent. Really doesn't mean anything, both are good. Sorta age dependent, blues are older than golds. Someone said that the difference is that blues have steel pistons and golds are aluminum. (Anyone want to verify that?) If you want, I could dig out the pn# of the master I used; (might be a few days though.) Used HH EBC pads from Randy. Made a helluva difference, you'll not regret it! :yahoo:
The price looks good ! They are not mine and I have no affiliation with the product or owner , just looking at them.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/2002-02-YAMAHA-R6-FRONT-BRAKE-CALIPERS-AND-LINES-/121157069485?pt=Motorcycles_Parts_Accessories&hash=item1c35862aad&vxp=mtr (http://www.ebay.com/itm/2002-02-YAMAHA-R6-FRONT-BRAKE-CALIPERS-AND-LINES-/121157069485?pt=Motorcycles_Parts_Accessories&hash=item1c35862aad&vxp=mtr)
George
Go Brembo. :yes: I had this set up on my original 16" 87 front end. Nice. :good2:
Quote from: JMR on October 20, 2013, 07:41:26 AM
Go Brembo. :yes: I had this set up on my original 16" 87 front end. Nice. :good2:
What set up? I know that Brembo has been producing the brake masters & calipers for some of the new Sports Bikes, but don't know which ones.
My bike has 24K of strictly touring miles until I bought it. Now I'm riding it more aggresively. The back brake works great but not the front. Usually it is the opposite. I'm a huge believer in braided stainless steel lines. That addition goes without saying.
Are there any snags in swapping master cylinders? Do all 7/8" bar masters physically fit? I once replaced an OEM Honda master with one from a Ducati Monster & was stunned at the performance difference, plus the used Ducati master cost less than the OEM Honda replacement.
Who all has used a Brembo manufactured master & what donor cycles did the master come from?
Thank you
~JM~
Quote from: ~JM~ on October 20, 2013, 11:20:09 AM
Quote from: JMR on October 20, 2013, 07:41:26 AM
Go Brembo. :yes: I had this set up on my original 16" 87 front end. Nice. :good2:
What set up? I know that Brembo has been producing the brake masters & calipers for some of the new Sports Bikes, but don't know which ones.
My bike has 24K of strictly touring miles until I bought it. Now I'm riding it more aggresively. The back brake works great but not the front. Usually it is the opposite. I'm a huge believer in braided stainless steel lines. That addition goes without saying.
Are there any snags in swapping master cylinders? Do all 7/8" bar masters physically fit? I once replaced an OEM Honda master with one from a Ducati Monster & was stunned at the performance difference, plus the used Ducati master cost less than the OEM Honda replacement.
Who all has used a Brembo manufactured master & what donor cycles did the master come from?
Thank you
~JM~
I used the rotors and calipers....it was a kit that I bought from Slater Bros (that is long out of production). Master was from a ZX-7. It worked very well. I switched to the late model front end and curently use those blue dot calipers and floating rotors from Spiegler....master is 14mm. I have thought about making caliper hangers for the Brembo calipers but time is a problem. I might just sell the calipers, rotors, brackets....they fit the 16" wheel.
I'd check fairing clearance if you want to use a radial cylinder master...they stick out quite a bit compared to older convential masters.
Pete,
Yes the Gold dot calipers do have lighter pistons, and I think they are aluminum. The total weight difference is 100g for the pair.
JM,
That master looks like the Nissin 19mm that I use. Mine came from a 2006 GSXR600. It is the best master I have used with the blue and gold dot calipers that I have on 8 of my bikes.
If you go with the blue / gold dot calipers, braided lines, the master you have found and fresh pads you will like the results. I have had very good luck with the stock Sumotomo G-G pads that came in the b/g dot calipers. I have a friend who is the shop manager at a Yamaha shop and he gives me the G-G pads that customers replace with EBC H-H pads, so I think I have a lifetime supply.
If you do this brake upgrade you will have the best results if you remove contamination from your discs. I glass bead my discs every time I change pads. This is a good article to read on the subject.
Racing Brake Pad | Bed-In Procedures
http://www.braketech.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=category&layout=blog&id=17&Itemid=69&limitstart=7 (http://www.braketech.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=category&layout=blog&id=17&Itemid=69&limitstart=7)
Are these the calipers that I'm looking for?
http://www.ebay.com/itm/170983924851?ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1439.l2649#ht_1405wt_932 (http://www.ebay.com/itm/170983924851?ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1439.l2649#ht_1405wt_932)
Take a look at that cross-over tube. I'm concerned that these are possibly 2007.
~JM~
Quote from: ~JM~ on October 29, 2013, 05:54:34 PM
Are these the calipers that I'm looking for?
http://www.ebay.com/itm/170983924851?ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1439.l2649#ht_1405wt_932 (http://www.ebay.com/itm/170983924851?ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1439.l2649#ht_1405wt_932)
~JM~
Those, while not the most desirable of the blue spots, would have worked just fine.
Great price, too... :good:
I saw that they are sold. If you bought these, you got them and the master cylinder at a great price. They will bolt right up to your forks. Add Stainless lines, New HH pads and bead blast or new rotors and you will be all set to have great stopping power.
Fred
Which ones are the most desireable & what is the reason?
Thank you
~JM~
Any of the monoblocs are pretty good, but some people prefer the ones without the external hard line.
There's nothing wrong with those, IMO.
IIRC, the gold dots are lighter than the rest.
Is it just an esthetic issue?
These were the newest ones that I could find. The others were '02 or older. I just figured the newer the better.
Are they usually ready to bolt up, or should I pick up rebuild kits?
Thank you
~JM~
Quote from: ~JM~ on October 29, 2013, 06:38:31 PM
Is it just an esthetic issue?
These were the newest ones that I could find. The others were '02 or older. I just figured the newer the better.
Are they usually ready to bolt up, or should I pick up rebuild kits?
Thank you
~JM~
Some prefer the looks of the others better, some couldn't care less.
(http://i643.photobucket.com/albums/uu159/rktmanfj/20131029_194415_zpsca2f9f79.jpg)
Again, from memory (surely someone will correct me if I remembered it wrong)... the one with the internal fluid passages are slightly stiffer and lighter, and the gold dots ones have lighter pistons than blue dots.
Any of them are pretty damned good. :pardon:
There are some minor differences in the R1, R6, YZF600R, FZ1, and FJR calipers. The axial calipers from all of the stated models will work. IMO, any of these, (Blue, Gold, Silver, Blue with silver center and a tube) will be an improvement over the OEM FJ brake calipers.
As far as rebuilding the pistons. For piece of mind, do it before you install on the bike.
I have R1 Blue dots on my white/Silver 89' and R1 Gold dots on my 87'. For the 87' I got the Gold dots specifically to match the gold graphics. Both sets work great and I can not distinguish any breaking differences between the 2 bikes.
Fred
I was looking for "Gold Dots" originally, but was unable to find any of the correct year range ('99-'06 correct?).
My '89 FJ is a Blue & Black model with the gold brakes & rotors. Figured the Gold Dots would match the rotors better.
Where is a good source for rebuild kits & what all is involved? Has anyone done a post on rebuilding their calipers?
Thank you
~JM~
Here's a set.
http://item.mobileweb.ebay.com/viewitem?sbk=1&nav=SEARCH&itemId=200981550956 (http://item.mobileweb.ebay.com/viewitem?sbk=1&nav=SEARCH&itemId=200981550956)
No affiliation ...
Thanks for the heads up, but I already pulled the trigger on that other set-up.
So... It looks like the Blue Dots & the Gold Dots are from the same years. I wonder what was the differentiation between the models?
~JM~
Gold dots were on the Warrior muscle cruiser.... It has upside down forks and 17" front wheel with the gold dot calipers.
Quote from: RichBaker on October 30, 2013, 08:20:28 PM
Gold dots were on the Warrior muscle cruiser.... It has upside down forks and 17" front wheel with the gold dot calipers.
Some R1s also had gold dots.
Quote from: not a lib on October 30, 2013, 09:04:05 PM
Quote from: RichBaker on October 30, 2013, 08:20:28 PM
Gold dots were on the Warrior muscle cruiser.... It has upside down forks and 17" front wheel with the gold dot calipers.
Some R1s also had gold dots.
Yep....early 2003 models had axial and by mid 2003 they were replaced by radials......AFAIK.
I have the early 2003s on my FJ. I am lead to believe that the pistons are lighter than the blue dots (same size but aluminium v steel).
Harvy
I see a lot of talk about Blue Dots and Gold Dots for upgrading the late 1980's front brakes, what about "silver dots?"
I found this complete setup from a 2006, is this the same (functionally) as the Blue/Gold dotted calipers mentioned elsewhere?
https://www.ebay.com/itm/383059101411?fits=Model%3AFZ1&hash=item59301a06e3:g:weoAAOSwLmhdMje2 (https://www.ebay.com/itm/383059101411?fits=Model%3AFZ1&hash=item59301a06e3:g:weoAAOSwLmhdMje2)
Right now my 89 has a completely stock setup with steel braided lines (installed by previous owner) and the front binders are, predictably, pretty sad. Are the steel braided lines transferrable, or did later models get smaller banjos or something?
Thanks guys, sorry 'bout resurrecting the zombie here
They are the same as blue/gold. Something to do with materials of the pistons? Pat knows this info. I think one are steel pistons and the other aluminum...
You should be able to use your braided lines that are on there. You might have to swap the left to right and vice versa, because of the angle on the ends.
In terms of a rebuild kit, there's usually no need to go overboard, unless you can see the pistons are pitted. Just grab a seal kit, pop the pistons out, clean everything thoroughly and fit the new seals - no need to unscrew the "dots" - and fit new pads if they're needed, but don't waste your money if they're not.
With the cash saved from not getting the bits that aren't really necessary, stump up for a 2001-2005 FZ1 master cylinder, to match the calipers (or a FJR 1300 master, but these are rarer). IMHO, it's not really worth going for the "dot" calipers unless you're going for a matching master cylinder - the original FJ one "works", but doesn't give the real improvement you're looking for with the "dots". AND, you get can usually get the span adjustable lever with them.
And one more thing - don't worry about the colour, just paint the dots gold - I got blue dots and a bit of careful masking and spraying and "hey presto", they're gold. I've lost count of the number of times people have commented on my "gold" dot calipers :sarcastic: :sarcastic:
Thanks for the insight!
Does the master cylinder in the set I linked to above (in the ebay auction) look like a good choice? I'm assuming its the matching OEM part for the FZ-1 so that *should* be a keeper? (then again the original master cylinders on the FJ were a 'matched set' too...)
I was expecting to replace the seals/springs/piston and clean them out no matter what - IIRC, I've never rebuilt a caliper in my life that needed new pistons, and if they turn out to be ~that~ bad, I assume I could just make a new set anyway, maybe aluminum. Has anyone done this already?
Blue and silver dot calipers uses stainless steel pistons
(http://fjowners.com/gallery/12/49_26_02_22_1_17_07.jpeg)
2002/2003 were the last 2 years for the Yamaha YZF R-1 axial mount monoblock calipers and they were gold dots and they used lighter aluminum pistons.
(http://fjowners.com/gallery/10/49_02_02_17_11_23_22.jpeg)
The cost of the oem piston seals for the gold dots is considerably less expensive than the blue/silver dots.
Quote from: RobbieKNobbie on February 25, 2022, 02:39:04 PM
Thanks for the insight!
Does the master cylinder in the set I linked to above (in the ebay auction) look like a good choice? I'm assuming its the matching OEM part for the FZ-1 so that *should* be a keeper? (then again the original master cylinders on the FJ were a 'matched set' too...)
I was expecting to replace the seals/springs/piston and clean them out no matter what - IIRC, I've never rebuilt a caliper in my life that needed new pistons, and if they turn out to be ~that~ bad, I assume I could just make a new set anyway, maybe aluminum. Has anyone done this already?
Robbie....Yes, the choice in your link is a good one. Throw the brake lines and pads away. Clean around the piston seals. Use fresh fluid and see if everything works ok....only rebuild if you need to....the master is easy and cheap.
Those silver dot calipers have expensive seals....but still they are excellent calipers.
Don't bother trying to machine new pistons....just get a new set of calipers.
Quote from: RobbieKNobbie on February 25, 2022, 11:04:33 AM
I found this complete setup from a 2006, is this the same (functionally) as the Blue/Gold dotted calipers mentioned elsewhere?
https://www.ebay.com/itm/383059101411?fits=Model%3AFZ1&hash=item59301a06e3:g:weoAAOSwLmhdMje2 (https://www.ebay.com/itm/383059101411?fits=Model%3AFZ1&hash=item59301a06e3:g:weoAAOSwLmhdMje2)
Please tell us you snagged that lot Robbie - that's a great deal.
Quote from: Pat Conlon on February 25, 2022, 02:48:13 PM
....Clean around the piston seals. Use fresh fluid and see if everything works ok....only rebuild if you need to....
This is good advice. When was the last time anyone had leaking calipers ?
Calipers only have one (barely) moving part, that's it! I have always subscribed to the idea of leaving them well alone while they're working. You start fiddling with things that don't need it and that's where the trouble starts. Also, brakes rarely fail but leak progressively, making early detection easy.
I could cite a number of high mileage vehicles that have never had hydraulic work done but the highest one I can vouch for was '78 Volvo 245 with nearly a million km's on it. I know this because almost exclusively I did the servicing and repairs all it's life. Even then, it's days only ended when it was hit while parked. The rubber brake hoses were also original and it only had one clutch replacement and the engine and gearbox were untouched, and, just to throw the cat amongst the pigeons, it spent it's entire life running on shit oil.
Noel
The new Volvo's go 12,000 miles between oil changes.... :good:
It's a sealed engine so you gotta go to the dealer $$$.
Quote from: Pat Conlon on February 26, 2022, 04:11:50 PM
The new Volvo's go 12,000 miles between oil changes.... :good:
It's a sealed engine so you gotta go to the dealer $$$.
I hope they go broke doing BS like this^^^. Of course with the pending end of ICE they probably don't care. :flag_of_truce:
My 2010 Volvo V70 D5 (twin turbo diesel, 240bhp, 500Nm) has over 200k miles out and it's service and oil change intervals are every 18,000 miles. Don't need a dealer to do either though - my best friend (and FJ Racer) has done all my servicing since the first free one at his local garage business.
It still runs sweet and strong :good2:
I remember my mother in laws 2014 Subaru Forrester had to go in for oil change every 4,000 miles and all of my families vehicles in the US have ridiculously short oil change intervals vs anything we have here. I really don't understand why - the Forrester here has 12,000 miles oil change intervals and I can't see any difference between the engines/cars to warrant such differences.
Quote from: Motofun on February 27, 2022, 07:12:20 AM
Quote from: Pat Conlon on February 26, 2022, 04:11:50 PM
The new Volvo's go 12,000 miles between oil changes.... :good:
It's a sealed engine so you gotta go to the dealer $$$.
I hope they go broke doing BS like this^^^. Of course with the pending end of ICE they probably don't care. :flag_of_truce:
I agree.....BMW does the same thing with their cars.
My friend Dave has an X-3 and I asked him, "How much oil does it hold? I've heard German cars typically hold an extra 2 quarts of oil...." Dave said, "I have no idea, the engine is sealed. There is no way for the owner to add oil. If you need to add oil, your computer tells you and you have to schedule a service appointment at the BMW dealer."
I asked, "How much does an oil change cost at the BMW dealer?"
Dave said, "about $480".
No thank you.
Quote from: Millietant on February 25, 2022, 04:57:07 PM
Please tell us you snagged that lot Robbie - that's a great deal.
Yes I did! The package is due in tomorrow, so I'll have a better idea what I've gotten myself into then.
Hopefully I'll get a chance to install them this weekend, but the wife wants to go out to look at tile to redo the bathroom so I'm not holding out much hope.
I've a pair of yzf750 6 pots waiting to go on my 3CV, looking forward to them
:)
Got the brakes in today (Fedex likes to deliver everyone's packages to one address in the complex and let us figure out where our stuff went. Nice) and they look surprisingly clean. The pads have about .105 to .115 of material on them, so I think I'd rather put new ones on when I install the calipers. The pistons are cad plated steel and from what I can see look pretty clean, so no need to mess with them.
So for the most part I'm pretty happy.
Have to get a lever though, any suggestions?
Quote from: RobbieKNobbie on March 09, 2022, 12:09:52 PM
Got the brakes in today (Fedex likes to deliver everyone's packages to one address in the complex and let us figure out where our stuff went. Nice) and they look surprisingly clean. The pads have about .105 to .115 of material on them, so I think I'd rather put new ones on when I install the calipers. The pistons are cad plated steel and from what I can see look pretty clean, so no need to mess with them.
So for the most part I'm pretty happy.
Have to get a lever though, any suggestions?
Yes to new pads! You have no idea if the old pads have been contaminated, etc. when I did blue dots several years ago I reused the old pads. HORRIBLE. NO stopping power. Replaced the pads - EXCELLENT brakes! Old ones must have been contaminated.
Quote from: ~JM~ on October 19, 2013, 12:43:51 PMI've been trying the search feature but end up with a lot of posts to sift through. What modifications are usually performed to help make the front brakes actually work better than the rear? Thank you
~JM~
~JM~,
Just basics: Stainless Steel braided brake lines will be a large help. You can get tailored kit$, or most good hydraulics shops can copy what you have there. Get the banjo ends that pivot (twist), because hydraulic hoses do not do that. Unless you have ABS brakes, you can use a longer banjo bolt, and install a separate brake hose down to each caliper, with two ends together at the master cylinder. You can get bleeder banjo bolts, making it easy to bleed the vertical brake lines. They cost ~US$20 at the right shops, and over twice that much, at the wrong shops.
You can get aftermarket brake pads, for a better grip. These are the usual small-dollar upgrades. Hoses first.
Beyond that, you go for new calipers, rotors, and master cylinder, but unless you ride really hard, the costs may exceed the benefits, on those three items.
It would help us to help you, if you put your year and model of FJ in your signature or avatar text. We hate to ask, every time.