The bike would not start this morning, it had power, and would crank, but not enough to get her running. This has not happened all year. Short recent story on the bike, was riding it at least once a week most of the summer if not more when I was riding it to work, no starting issues. It did sit for a couple weeks at the end of august, and I have rode it a few times in September, as recently as Sunday (but only for 30 minutes). It was about 45 degrees this morning when it wouldn't start. Battery is a cheap battery but was new in the spring.
I checked voltage this afternoon after work.
With the bike off voltage was 12.34
At idle: 12.6
At 4500rpm: 14.55
I have done some reading and it seems that the high rpm voltage might be a tad high and I have read that the regulators on these bikes have a tendency to damage batteries by over charging.
Also, it did start, but cranked slow this afternoon when the temp was 70 degrees.
I have the battery on my trickle charger now and will leave it on there for a while.
It looks like RPM sells a nice replacement regulator that I might want to look into:http://www.rpmracingca.com/proddetail.asp?prod=Electrical%3ARegulator&cat=39
Any thoughts?
Thoughts.. Umm
Your voltages look good. The factory indicates that the upper limit is 15 V.
Yes there is a history of overcharging and boiling batteries.
If things are working as they should, after a drain down of the battery (like after starting) the output voltage would be on the high side and should reduce as the battery gets charged back up. A good mod is to install a digital voltmeter. Cheap on e bay.
I don't know if that's the cause of your no start issue.
45 degrees, starter turning over slower. Could also be the starter. Make sure your terminals are clean at the battery, starter and starter relay.
I started mine about once a week or so all last winter with similar temps (15-40 wt oil) in my garage with no problem. My battery is also a cheap gel battery.
George
Quote from: movenon on September 24, 2013, 04:49:29 PM
Thoughts.. Umm
Your voltages look good. The factory indicates that the upper limit is 15 V.
Yes there is a history of overcharging and boiling batteries.
If things are working as they should, after a drain down of the battery (like after starting) the output voltage would be on the high side and should reduce as the battery gets charged back up. A good mod is to install a digital voltmeter. Cheap on e bay.
I don't know if that's the cause of your no start issue.
45 degrees, starter turning over slower. Could also be the starter. Make sure your terminals are clean at the battery, starter and starter relay.
I started mine about once a week or so all last winter with similar temps (15-40 wt oil) in my garage with no problem. My battery is also a cheap gel battery.
George
Starter is new this year. I plan on cleaning up the terminals, they had some corrosion. Where is the starter relay? Bike is an '89.
I it's right behind the battery. Look for the big red wire going to it. :good2:
You could jumper the red wire to the starter B+ wire briefly to determine by ear if the contactors might be losing an abnormal amount of voltage ? See if she spins faster..
I assume you are choking and cracking the throttle a little.
George
Quote from: dougrs on September 24, 2013, 04:05:27 PM
The bike would not start this morning, it had power, and would crank, but not enough to get her running. This has not happened all year. Short recent story on the bike, was riding it at least once a week most of the summer if not more when I was riding it to work, no starting issues. It did sit for a couple weeks at the end of august, and I have rode it a few times in September, as recently as Sunday (but only for 30 minutes). It was about 45 degrees this morning when it wouldn't start. Battery is a cheap battery but was new in the spring.
I checked voltage this afternoon after work.
With the bike off voltage was 12.34
At idle: 12.6
At 4500rpm: 14.55
I have done some reading and it seems that the high rpm voltage might be a tad high and I have read that the regulators on these bikes have a tendency to damage batteries by over charging.
Also, it did start, but cranked slow this afternoon when the temp was 70 degrees.
I have the battery on my trickle charger now and will leave it on there for a while.
It looks like RPM sells a nice replacement regulator that I might want to look into:http://www.rpmracingca.com/proddetail.asp?prod=Electrical%3ARegulator&cat=39
Any thoughts?
Check the battery voltage WHILE cranking the engine, if it drops below ~9V, the battery is toast, this is the easiest way to load test the battery.
Update: My battery was just weak, problem solved.
However, I am having an intermittent issue when starting. Occasionally when I try to start the bike the engine turns over and then there is a loud metallic clank and the bike wont turn over. Eventually, it will start, but it takes a while. It does this when the bike is in neutral. thanks
Quote from: dougrs on October 08, 2013, 02:25:30 PM
Update: My battery was just weak, problem solved.
However, I am having an intermittent issue when starting. Occasionally when I try to start the bike the engine turns over and then there is a loud metallic clank and the bike wont turn over. Eventually, it will start, but it takes a while. It does this when the bike is in neutral. thanks
It did this both times I started it today. When the engine stops turning over there is a puff of smoke that comes.out of the air box at the same time of thw metallic sound.
How are the intake valves? Sounds like it might be backfiring through the intake. Sticky intake valve perhaps?
Quote from: FJ_Hooligan on October 08, 2013, 05:33:43 PM
How are the intake valves? Sounds like it might be backfiring through the intake. Sticky intake valve perhaps?
I don't know. How would I check that?
Quote from: dougrs on October 08, 2013, 06:54:53 PM
Quote from: FJ_Hooligan on October 08, 2013, 05:33:43 PM
How are the intake valves? Sounds like it might be backfiring through the intake. Sticky intake valve perhaps?
I don't know. How would I check that?
Quick and easy, do a compression check :good2: It will not tell you what the problem is but it will tell you if there is a problem and where to start looking.
George
It's your battery. The loud metallic clank you hear is from the starter disengaging due to under voltage. Get a new battery and the problem will go away.
Cheers. Pat
Pat's right. Forget about the valves, it's the battery/starter. You could also try cracking the throttle open while cranking
Quote from: Pat Conlon on October 08, 2013, 07:51:27 PM
It's your battery. The loud metallic clank you hear is from the starter disengaging due to under voltage. Get a new battery and the problem will go away.
Cheers. Pat
It has a new battery. It seems more like something stops the engine from turning over rather than the starter disengaging.
Quote from: dougrs on October 08, 2013, 08:03:02 PM
Quote from: Pat Conlon on October 08, 2013, 07:51:27 PM
It's your battery. The loud metallic clank you hear is from the starter disengaging due to under voltage. Get a new battery and the problem will go away.
Cheers. Pat
It has a new battery. It seems more like something stops the engine from turning over rather than the starter disengaging.
Also it does not immediately turn over after the sound. It takes a few tries to get it to turnover and start.
When was the last time the starter was serviced?
Quote from: not a lib on October 08, 2013, 08:48:23 PM
When was the last time the starter was serviced?
Starter was installed in May. The old starter gave me problems, slow starting, hard starting, etc. For much of this summer I did not have starting issues with the new starter, then occasionally I had the issue described above, and recently it has been more frequent.
How's the main lead going to the starter? Flex it to make sure there isn't any corrosion anywhere along its length.
Once it starts, does it run normally? Not like it needs to clear up excess fuel or anything like that?
If you can make it happen, you might try putting a wrench on the left side of the crank and see if you can turn the motor over by hand. That would tell you if it's anything mechanical in the engine (although I can't imagine what would lock the crank up then fix itself and run normally).
Something to throw into the fire here. The starter relay contacts (connector or internal relay contacts) might be in not the best shape ? You could jumper past the relay and see if she spins and better ?
George
Quote from: FJ_Hooligan on October 09, 2013, 10:23:40 AM
How's the main lead going to the starter? Flex it to make sure there isn't any corrosion anywhere along its length.
Once it starts, does it run normally? Not like it needs to clear up excess fuel or anything like that?
If you can make it happen, you might try putting a wrench on the left side of the crank and see if you can turn the motor over by hand. That would tell you if it's anything mechanical in the engine (although I can't imagine what would lock the crank up then fix itself and run normally).
It does run ok once it fires. I have been getting some more vibrations once it is running, but I have not been able to look into that yet.
Quote from: movenon on October 09, 2013, 05:56:36 PM
Something to throw into the fire here. The starter relay contacts (connector or internal relay contacts) might be in not the best shape ? You could jumper past the relay and see if she spins and better ?
George
I have not had any time to look into the issue more. I will attempt to jump the relay and report back. It does seem though that most below that this is a starter issue, so that is where I will focus my efforts. thanks for the suggestions so far.
It probably is your starter or battery but it would be a bad deal if you replaced the starter and found out it was something else that you should have checked.
Not that I haven't been down that road myself. :rofl2: :rofl2: :dash2: Let us know what you find out, its a learning experience for all of us. :drinks:
George
Quote from: dougrs on October 09, 2013, 06:55:59 PM
Quote from: movenon on October 09, 2013, 05:56:36 PM
Something to throw into the fire here. The starter relay contacts (connector or internal relay contacts) might be in not the best shape ? You could jumper past the relay and see if she spins and better ?
George
I have not had any time to look into the issue more. I will attempt to jump the relay and report back. It does seem though that most below that this is a starter issue, so that is where I will focus my efforts. thanks for the suggestions so far.
I wanted to follow up on my previous posts from last month.....
I used a jumper wire to bypass the starter relay today and the bike turned right over and cranked with no issue. So I have determined that my starter relay is bad and I will be replacing it. Making progress...
However, My fuel gauge has gone a little crazy the needle seems to read correctly at idle, but then when riding it fluctuates up and down. I am assuming this is an issues with one of the wires going from the sender to the gauge and will be trying to fix that soon.
Clean your electrical connections...all of them. It's a pain, but necessary on our old bikes.
That may be the reason for the failure on your starter relay. Voltage drop.
On relays, as the voltage drops (via poor connections) the amperage draw increases on the contractor coil. (ohm's law)
This higher amperage can, and will over time, cook the wires in the contractor coil.
Clean your connectors.
Thanks for the follow up. I am glad it was just a starter relay. Easy to fix and easy to work around in an emergency to get you started. :good2:
George
Quote from: Pat Conlon on November 13, 2013, 03:56:10 PM
Clean your electrical connections...all of them. It's a pain, but necessary on our old bikes.
That may be the reason for the failure on your starter relay. Voltage drop.
On relays, as the voltage drops (via poor connections) the amperage draw increases on the contractor coil. (ohm's law)
This higher amperage can, and will over time, cook the wires in the contractor coil.
Clean your connectors.
This may sound a little strange, but a handy way to clean connectors is to use this: http://www.jelmar.com/TarnXbasic.htm (http://www.jelmar.com/TarnXbasic.htm)
Just dip the connector in the TarnX for a few minutes, and rinse with very hot water (not boiling - you don't want to melt your connector). The hot water will evaporate/dry quicker. You do want to make sure it drys thoroughly (hair dryer works great for this), then use dielectric grease to prevent further corrosion.
Quote from: FeralRdr on November 13, 2013, 06:54:31 PM
Quote from: Pat Conlon on November 13, 2013, 03:56:10 PM
Clean your electrical connections...all of them. It's a pain, but necessary on our old bikes.
That may be the reason for the failure on your starter relay. Voltage drop.
On relays, as the voltage drops (via poor connections) the amperage draw increases on the contractor coil. (ohm's law)
This higher amperage can, and will over time, cook the wires in the contractor coil.
Clean your connectors.
This may sound a little strange, but a handy way to clean connectors is to use this: http://www.jelmar.com/TarnXbasic.htm (http://www.jelmar.com/TarnXbasic.htm)
thanks
Just dip the connector in the TarnX for a few minutes, and rinse with very hot water (not boiling - you don't want to melt your connector). The hot water will evaporate/dry quicker. You do want to make sure it drys thoroughly (hair dryer works great for this), then use dielectric grease to prevent further corrosion.