I finally got my bike going yesterday but have a problem I am not certain about. The FJ has been sitting for about a year but in that time its had the tank off and Tank Kreme put in. I put it back together with new fuel , Fired it up and what appears to be running on 3 cylinders. Feeling annoyed I pulled the Carbis off and ran some carbi cleaner through it. It seemed to fix the prob ...... Well what I thought it had until I started it again a month later and the same miss fire.. This time I got the Pilot Jets cleaned out and again the same prob. Even gave them a light blast with compressed air. Anyway. Its starts on choke ok, Runs quite smooth until the choke is off then starts kicking around with the hint of a mild popping as if its lean. When it warms up it smooths out a bit, but still has a mild miss. Any suggestions? I thought the carbs may be out of sync? My other question is even though the carbi bowls dont appear to leak do the gaskets need replacing and would this cause any issues. Cant smell any fuel only from the tank cap mildly. Regards Jeff
The drilled passages in the carb bodies, and in the float bowl get clogged like the pilot jets, and need to be blown out with compressed air. Just cleaning the jets is 1/2 the job.
What we have learned about cleaning the carbs can be summarized thusly: Half measures avail us nothing.
Quote from: Pat Conlon on September 09, 2013, 08:31:06 PM
What we have learned about cleaning the carbs can be summarized thusly: Half measures avail us nothing.
How true. Soon working on carburetor's will be a lost art form along with making wooden wagon wheels and rebabbiting (the word isn't even in the spell check) bearings... :lol:
George
Jeff, the bowl gaskets should be fine unless you have actually damaged one. I would make sure the carbs are somewhere near synced to eliminate that.
If the tank is clean you shouldn't be getting recurring blockages.
Remember, with our fuel, we don't have all the carb issues they have in the States. With a good filter and clean carbies to start with they are pretty much a set and forget item here, even with long periods of storage.
I pulled mine apart for the first time ever at 100,000 km's and nearly 20 years to re-jet them and they were spotless, which was not surprising.
Noel
Sounds to me like the pilot circuits is needing cleaning. There is an art to cleaning them though!
Quote from: Jeff0308 on September 09, 2013, 08:08:00 PM
I finally got my bike going yesterday but have a problem I am not certain about. The FJ has been sitting for about a year but in that time its had the tank off and Tank Kreme put in. I put it back together with new fuel , Fired it up and what appears to be running on 3 cylinders. Feeling annoyed I pulled the Carbis off and ran some carbi cleaner through it. It seemed to fix the prob ...... Well what I thought it had until I started it again a month later and the same miss fire.. This time I got the Pilot Jets cleaned out and again the same prob. Even gave them a light blast with compressed air. Anyway. Its starts on choke ok, Runs quite smooth until the choke is off then starts kicking around with the hint of a mild popping as if its lean. When it warms up it smooths out a bit, but still has a mild miss. Any suggestions? I thought the carbs may be out of sync? My other question is even though the carbi bowls dont appear to leak do the gaskets need replacing and would this cause any issues. Cant smell any fuel only from the tank cap mildly. Regards Jeff
Quote from: movenon on September 09, 2013, 08:53:12 PM
How true. Soon working on carburetor's will be a lost art form along with making wooden wagon wheels and rebabbiting (the word isn't even in the spell check) bearings... :lol:
George
George, most
real mechanics skills are gone now, unless you can still find an older mechanic. They have become parts replacers with poor to no diagnostic skills.
Noel
I pulled the carbis off. Cleaned oiut the pilot jets, and the carbis. Put it back together. Same result. I even got the bike shop to do the Pilot jets after I did it, Again same result. The main jets have been cleaned as well. I am wondering if its a sync isue. I was going to pull them apart again and check again but sometimes you just are over it, so I am going to let another bike shop have a go I think. Its really pissing me off. I absolutely hate people working on my cars/ bikes other than me. I get so frustrated and annoyed if I cant do it myself. The people who did the club permit thought it was an old fuel issue, so what did they do? emptied the tank and filled it ALL the way to the top with new fuel. At some point they must not have heard me when I said that the fuel is only a week or 2 old. It Was in the to hard basket for them and they are a bike shop. So Noel I do agree with you, nobody knows how to fix old things and very few people have mechanical knowledge of pre fuel injection era. Now its throw it and replace it. That shits me bigtime.
Did you pull the idle mixture screws out and spray through that passage?
Quote from: Jeff0308 on September 11, 2013, 08:21:29 PM
I pulled the carbis off. Cleaned oiut the pilot jets, and the carbis. Put it back together. Same result. I even got the bike shop to do the Pilot jets after I did it, Again same result. The main jets have been cleaned as well. I am wondering if its a sync isue. I was going to pull them apart again and check again but sometimes you just are over it, so I am going to let another bike shop have a go I think. Its really pissing me off. I absolutely hate people working on my cars/ bikes other than me. I get so frustrated and annoyed if I cant do it myself. The people who did the club permit thought it was an old fuel issue, so what did they do? emptied the tank and filled it ALL the way to the top with new fuel. At some point they must not have heard me when I said that the fuel is only a week or 2 old. It Was in the to hard basket for them and they are a bike shop. So Noel I do agree with you, nobody knows how to fix old things and very few people have mechanical knowledge of pre fuel injection era. Now its throw it and replace it. That shits me bigtime.
Sorry about the bum time. You can fix it, trust me. And when you do it will probably be simple (hopefully :lol:).
Diagnostics... Have you run a compression check, what do your plugs look like, hows the ignition wires, plug caps,
Before you put the carbs back in "just because" do a blow test into your carbs to insure the vacuum diaphragms are good. (pet peeve). Not the cause of your running problem but it's just a test to do before you put them back on. Make sure your manifold O rings going into the block, between the intake manifold and engine are good. They are a known spot to leak. Cheap and easy to replace when the carbs are off.
How many turns out are each of your fuel air mixture screws ? When you adjust the screws out your are adding fuel into the system. In is reducing the fuel.
With the choke off and warmed up how doe's it run around 3000 RPM ?
I know its a bit random but I hope that gives you some ideas and things to do. Give us some more data :lol:. Hang in there, it's just a machine. Who is smarter you or it....?
George
Jeff, if you're still in trouble by the weekend I can probably come down and have a look. Or if it's rideable, you could bring it to my place. I like my own tools. A fresh set of eyes might spot something. I hate seeing you so disheartened over what can't be that big a deal, particularly after some of the bad luck you've had and the time this has been going on.
Let me know
Noel
Quote from: movenon on September 11, 2013, 09:41:41 PM
How many turns out are each of your fuel air mixture screws ? When you adjust the screws out your are adding fuel into the system. In is reducing the fuel.
I don't think that's technically correct. According to what I've read in the past and studying the diagrams in the files, the mixture screws are varying the amount of a fuel/air mixture. So it's a little more complicated than out = more fuel and in = less fuel.
I think that based on the mixture that the pilot circuit is providing (which would be a function of the idle jet size and the air pilot jet size), you could be adding more or less of an idle mixture that is lean or rich. If the mixture was rich, it would act like you describe. But if the mixture in the idle circuit was lean, you'd be adding more of a lean mixture. Would that be better or worse? I still don't understand this very well.
I was just attempting to call attention to the fact that the mixture screws are NOT fuel screws.
It is my understanding that they meter/control fuel not air. If they were on the opposite side they would be metering air. I might be off there but that basically my understanding. Might be wrong ? fuel /air or air /fuel ? You might be correct on the direction.... Noel.... ? :good2:
By knowing the number of turns out each carb fuel/air screw is when its running the best (I have seen them make no change in idle, which tells me something), might indicate a particular cylinder to look at. Just looking for clues to his problem.
George
seems to run a lot better with choke on than off. However even when its warm it still misses and pops a little which I thought may be a lean fuel mixture. Keep in mind that the bike has virtually done nothing in 12 months other than the odd start up and tank kremed . The bike has only been out for a month in this time. I haven't (PULLED ) the carbis to bits as such. Thought I would try the pilot jets and a tin of carbi cleaner.. stupid me should know better. Was more bothered to the fact if I pull them totally apart I would get in more than a bit of bother. I haven't taken the inlet manifold off at all. So I cant see why the gaskets would be an issue if untouched, however stupid things are known to happen. The guy in the bike shop suggeested the gaskets as well....... Thanks Noel for the offer. Dont know if I can make it this weekend as got a few things on. I havent yet pulled it apart again as to many other things going on. Was going to today but got distracted.
Just had a thought. Better not touch it tomorrow..... Its Friday the 13th. :yes: :bomb: :smile:
Quote from: Jeff0308 on September 12, 2013, 08:07:44 AM
seems to run a lot better with choke on than off.
I haven't (PULLED ) the carbis to bits as such. Thought I would try the pilot jets and a tin of carbi cleaner.. stupid me should know better.
Jeff, I think you just went a long way to finding your problem. The first one is a clue, the second one the answer.
Noel
Quote from: Jeff0308 on September 12, 2013, 08:07:44 AM
seems to run a lot better with choke on than off. However even when its warm it still misses and pops a little which I thought may be a lean fuel mixture. Keep in mind that the bike has virtually done nothing in 12 months other than the odd start up and tank kremed . The bike has only been out for a month in this time. I haven't (PULLED ) the carbis to bits as such. Thought I would try the pilot jets and a tin of carbi cleaner.. stupid me should know better. Was more bothered to the fact if I pull them totally apart I would get in more than a bit of bother. I haven't taken the inlet manifold off at all. So I cant see why the gaskets would be an issue if untouched, however stupid things are known to happen. The guy in the bike shop suggested the gaskets as well....... Thanks Noel for the offer. Don't know if I can make it this weekend as got a few things on. I haven't yet pulled it apart again as to many other things going on. Was going to today but got distracted.
You are probably correct about the intake O rings. They have a small history of leaking and the best time to replace them is when the carbs are removed. Also inspect the inlet manifolds themselves. A little starting fluid sprayed in the area will tell you if they are leaking. They are a cheap and easy replacement when the carbs are off. Mostly a preventative thing to do. Seals are 21 years old.
I can understand your reluctance to taking the carbs totally off and going through them. But it's not that hard do. Might help to disassemble one at a time. I would at a minimum recommend you have a set of new needle and seat O rings handy. If you pull them out of the carb for cleaning they can get damaged easily. Again 21 years old. A complete rebuild kit is nice. RPM has them. http://www.rpmracingca.com/products.asp?cat=24&pg=2 (http://www.rpmracingca.com/products.asp?cat=24&pg=2)
But it depends on funds. Study the carb section in the "FILES" area.
Have you adjusted the fuel / air screws ? Does your engine respond to the adjusting ? If you remove them be-careful there is a small O ring in each one. The tips are easily damaged if you are not careful. Look on page 1 of RPM's carb section for an example. Noel is truly a "Super Hero" if he is offering to help or mentor then take him up on that.
George :good2:
Well, I set about finding the annoying bike issue today that's been giving me a bit of agro. so i decided to take it for a blast around the block. Still the same. What i did notice was a small pool of petrol under it when i got back. So removed the spark plugs one at a time. Got to number 3. And absolutely soaked in petrol. Anyway got the air lower and found the hose that had the petrol in it and blew compressed air through it to try clear it. Yep it emptied the fuel bowl. Started it up it purred like a kitten until the fuel bowl overflowed. Then it started misfiring again. I think the needle and seat is buggered. Now my question is, can the needle and seats be replaced without a total carbi rebuild or whats the best plan of attack. I'm not comfortable doing the rebuild as such. What's a rebuild kit worth versus needle and seats or can you get partial rebuild kits. All help greatly appreciated
I'd bet it's not the needle and/or seat, but it's actually the o-ring behind the needle seat. They go bad, and you get a flooding condition, just as you're describing. I hate to tell you , but you're probably in for a total card rebuild, whether you do it, or a professional (such as Randy) does it.
Either way, it sounds like that's what you're looking at. :empathy3:
Sounds like ED right on the money, but if I can make a suggestion, if its the one carb doing it and it was purrring like a kitten when you blew it out, hell get the O ring and the needle which will cost you less then a 6 pack. pop off the float bowl and replace the 2 parts and you'll be up and running. If it isn't broken why replace or rebuild all the carbs..
Good luck
Jim
Jeff, Given the onset of this was from one ride to the next, admittedly with some time in between, I'd be looking at a stuck float first. It's also dead easy to check. My bike does this to me periodically, it splutters on the flooding cylinder and even at revs it is rough. I carry a 300 x 10 mm piece of steel rod at all times to tap the carby bowl when it happens. It can be 20 mins between episodes or 20,000km's. I just rap the bowl of the offending carby and it stops.
If it is the needle and seat, it's not a biggy and my offer to help still stands. Randy could no doubt have one winging it's way to you before you even hit the send button for a few bucks or if you have the time it would not be hard to find one at a shop locally. A bit of research will probably show it is the same as many other bikes.
Try giving the bowl a few sharp raps with something metallic first. It's free, only takes a second and works for me.
Noel
Glad you found it :good2: Simple to fix. Thanks for the follow up !! Hate unsolved mysteries.
George
Took the carbis off today. Took the bowl off number 3 carbi to find a totally jammed open needle and seat. Delicately removed the float, the needle was stuck fast. got it freed up. the cause of it seemed to be stale fuel that had given it a lacquer like coating that had stuck the seat and needle together, the end of the needle was in perfect condition. I think these have had a rebuild at some point. Put them all back together and fired her up and it purred like a kitten. I think it may also be time to change the plugs. Im going to do that tomorrow. So Im really happy at the outcome so far. Just got to make a few adjustments and test rides and hopefully we're right for a coffee somewhere Noel /Arnie and whoever would like to join in. Ive learnt more about the FJ carbis in the last week than ive ever known, and as far as removal and refitmet, I could just about do it blind folded. Thanks guys fo all your help, advice and support,it was greatly appreciated
"Sorry about the bum time. You can fix it, trust me. And when you do it will probably be simple (hopefully lol)."
I am just glad you got her fixed and you that kept everyone informed as to the problem and out come. You never know enough about the carburetors :rofl2: :rofl2:
You just got one step closer to bonding with your FJ :drinks: :drinks: She gave you shit and you showed her who was boss............. :lol: :lol:
George
You gotta laugh or you would just go mad..... With all the time spent on the FJ recently my car must have a jealous streak in it........ Literally a day after I got the bike going my car thought its now its turn... Unfortunately it's a bit worse than a carbi issue.... The thermostat jammed shut , no warning or symptoms, it cooked the cylinder head..... Didn't realize until it was to late..... Old cars (27yrs old) only have the gauges no lights or warning alarms. Head gaskets blown big time. A replacement is $997 unfitted plus a gasket set$65. HOLDEN with a Nissan motor. Whats annoying is i am so concious of all my vehicles in respect of mechanical needs and servicing....obviously not in this instance..... the magical fuck up fairy waived her magic wand again. Think its time it visited god..... No sarcasm meant.... On the upside I now have the FJ to get around on if I have to.... Using my brothers car for now. He's got a spare......... I just shook my head in disbelief....always something to try ones patients....
commodore by chance :scratch_one-s_head:
I've had things like that happen to me. You'd swear they were human, not machines.
Yep. VL commodore. Only done 180000km original to. Now it's looking very sad in the garage awaiting its next life as a boat anchor. On the upside. I took the FJ for a ride yesterday 150km round trip. Rode beautifully. Only thing is I think it needs a carbi tune as it wants to stall a lot when you deaccelerate to a stand still suddenly. Idles a bit off. Once its running its smooth as but you can hear it hunting around . Any suggestions?
Quote from: Jeff0308 on September 21, 2013, 08:25:44 PM
Yep. VL commodore. Only done 180000km original to. Now it's looking very sad in the garage awaiting its next life as a boat anchor. On the upside. I took the FJ for a ride yesterday 150km round trip. Rode beautifully. Only thing is I think it needs a carbi tune as it wants to stall a lot when you deaccelerate to a stand still suddenly. Idles a bit off. Once its running its smooth as but you can hear it hunting around . Any suggestions?
If it sat for more than a few weeks it might be clogged idle jets. I run my bike every 2 to 3 weeks just the keep the fuel and additives flowing and the jets clear. If idle is rough and higher revs are good then it is your idle jets needing a cleaning...