I took apart the carbs on my FJ1200 and gave them a thorough cleaning. Now, it turns over easily and sounds better than it has in years.
One problem though -it streams gas from one of the hoses. Not one of the hoses connected to the bowls, but one of the other two longer and thicker hoses that are connected to the carbs.
What are those two hoses? Any idea why one would be leaking gas? Any help or suggestions would be GREATLY appreciated!
Adam
Those hoses are the vent hoses for your float bowls. The fuel in the bowls needs to stay at atmospheric pressure to assure proper flow in the carbs.
Gas flowing out of the vent hoses usually indicates that, 1) the float level is set too high or 2) that the float is sticking open or 3)something is preventing the float needle from fully seating or, 4) your float needle seat O rings are leaking.
If you took apart your carbs for cleaning (good for you) you need to be sure you replace those float needle seat o rings with new ones..
My bet is on #4 above..
Report back on what you find....
Here is some good reading: http://www.fjowners.com/index.php?topic=46.0 (http://www.fjowners.com/index.php?topic=46.0)
Quote from: Pat Conlon on August 19, 2013, 11:30:59 AM
My bet is on #4
Pat, that is amazing, you are predicting that carb #4 is the one leaking???? His post did not even say what side is leaking.... :biggrin:
I just had to post that, it was the first though I had when I read that line....
Quote from: Pat Conlon on August 19, 2013, 11:30:59 AM
Those hoses are the vent hoses for your float bowls. The fuel in the bowls needs to stay at atmospheric pressure to assure proper flow in the carbs.
Gas flowing out of the vent hoses usually indicates that, 1) the float level is set too high or 2) that the float is sticking open or 3)something is preventing the float needle from fully seating or, 4) your float needle seat O rings are leaking.
If you took apart your carbs for cleaning (good for you) you need to be sure you replace those float needle seat o rings with new ones..
My bet is on #4
Report back on what you find....
Thanks for the reply. The thought of having to take the carbs out and apart again is depressing me....
I thought that if the float was stuck open, one of the hoses connected to the bowls would leak gas - that is what was happening that caused me to clean the carbs in the first place but no longer happening. Does that eliminate #2?
I'd hate to replace to o-rings and find out it is something else. Is there anything else I can/need to check while I am there? (how do I check float level?). Is the only way to find out if the o-ring is leaking is to replace it and see if it fixes the problem?
Thanks again for all the advice. I'll report back what I find.
Adam
That is one reason I ditched the oem air box and installed Unipods...it makes carb removal much, much, much easier.
Yes, if the carbs are clean, I would think #2 and #3 would be ok.. Over time those float needle seat O rings dry out and allow gas to leak thru.
Go ahead and double check your float settings...but I really think it's the o rings.
You can perform a simple float height check with some clear tubing. On the center stand, shove one end onto the bowl drain and hold the other end so it is higher than the bowl. Crack open the drain screw and see where the fuel sits. Then check the others to see if they sit higher/lower than the others. The other way is to drain them, pull the carb bowls off and measure the height setting on each float. Use the search function, we have had some recent discussion on this so it should be easy to find.
Quote from: Pat Conlon on August 19, 2013, 12:03:27 PM
That is one reason I ditched the oem air box and installed Unipods...it makes carb removal much, much, much easier.
Yes, if the carbs are clean, I would think #2 and #3 would be ok.. Over time those float needle seat O rings dry out and allow gas to leak thru.
Go ahead and double check your float settings...but I really think it's the o rings.
I can't thank you enough for taking the time. Is this the o-ring you are talking about? (I just want to be sure)
(http://[url=http://awesomescreenshot.com/03f1mh2r71%5Dhttp://awesomescreenshot.com/03f1mh2r71%5B/url%5D)
http://awesomescreenshot.com/03f1mh2r71 (http://awesomescreenshot.com/03f1mh2r71)
Adam
Yeppers.
I would go ahead and order the full kit from RPM, including the ss replacement screws.
Those soft oem Phillips screws suck.
If you're short of funds, just the o rings for now..
Mark ( FJ Monkey) brought up a very good point about checking your 'fuel level'.
Do that first. Maybe one float got misadjusted and just needs readjustment.
My money is still on the o rings.
Quote from: aslovik on August 19, 2013, 12:16:51 PM
I can't thank you enough for taking the time. Is this the o-ring you are talking about? (I just want to be sure)
http://awesomescreenshot.com/03f1mh2r71 (http://awesomescreenshot.com/03f1mh2r71)
Adam
Yes, that is the one. When I replaced mine I was shocked at how bad they looked and that they were not leaking.
Quote from: Pat Conlon on August 19, 2013, 12:32:50 PM
Yeppers.
I would go ahead and order the full kit from RPM, including the ss replacement screws.
Those soft oem Phillips screws suck.
If you're short of funds, just the o rings for now..
Mark ( FJ Monkey) brought up a very good point about checking your 'fuel level'.
Do that first. Maybe one float got misadjusted and just needs readjustment.
My money is still on the o rings.
Last questions (I hope): If I order these unipods, I then don't need the airbox at all - is that right? I just replace the air box with these? Anything that will make getting the carbs out and in easier is worth the money.
Yep, they replace the air box. You also need to order the vent filter that goes on your crankcase breather tube.
Also, put on a longer crankcase vent hose. About 8 to 10 inches long...this will help the hot oil mist cool down and condense in the longer hose and drain back to the crankcase.
Review the posts on Unipods for advise on shimming the jet needles so as to prevent lean running in the upper RPMs.
Might as well replace those stock 37.5 pilot jets with slightly richer 40 pilot jets while you at it...
I visually inspected the o rings and they appear like new (not surprising since the bike only has ~9k miles on it). The height of the floats also looks to be the same as the others. I noticed two things though:
1) when I opened the bowls, one of the bowls had a lot more gasoline in it (on the side that was streaming from the vent hose)
2) The dainty piece that holds the needle was slightly bent (see photo). Is it possible that this is the cause?
http://awesomescreenshot.com/0041mric08 (http://awesomescreenshot.com/0041mric08)
I am grateful for any suggestions or help.
Adam
Quote from: aslovik on August 21, 2013, 11:26:24 AM
I visually inspected the o rings and they appear like new (not surprising since the bike only has ~9k miles on it). The height of the floats also looks to be the same as the others. I noticed two things though:
1) when I opened the bowls, one of the bowls had a lot more gasoline in it (on the side that was streaming from the vent hose)
2) The dainty piece that holds the needle was slightly bent (see photo). Is it possible that this is the cause?
http://awesomescreenshot.com/0041mric08 (http://awesomescreenshot.com/0041mric08)
I am grateful for any suggestions or help.
Adam
Yes that could bind, prevent full seating or cock the valve off center. Doesn't take much. Try to find out what bent it. Could have been accidentally bent during a float height adjustment. If you have the time I would put new o rings in just because...
George
Looking at that picture, the spring needle tip (that the float persses on) is stuck in the compressed position. I remember reading somewhere (probably in the Carb Files) that if the spring tip is stuck, the needle will not seat well and will leak.
Also, what year is your FJ? 9Kmiles isn't that many, but think about the number of YEARS those o-rings have been sitting there (assuming they are stock).
Quote from: FJ_Hooligan on August 21, 2013, 12:46:35 PM
Looking at that picture, the spring needle tip (that the float persses on) is stuck in the compressed position. I remember reading somewhere (probably in the Carb Files) that if the spring tip is stuck, the needle will not seat well and will leak.
Also, what year is your FJ? 9Kmiles isn't that many, but think about the number of YEARS those o-rings have been sitting there (assuming they are stock).
I just noticed that myself. I will try and loosen it or order a new one. Riding season is slipping away...
The FJ is a '93. I know, not a lot of miles. I used to ride it to work and back - but lived and worked in San Francisco, so it was only 3 miles each way. Now I am in Utah and want to do a lot more leisure riding....
Adam
When I went through my 88,s carbs , 2 of the float needles had the small plunger/spring siezed in the needle, so float heights couldn't be set ,and would of been off if I hadn't changed the needles
Quote from: fj11.5 on August 21, 2013, 05:18:04 PM
When I went through my 88,s carbs , 2 of the float needles had the small plunger/spring siezed in the needle, so float heights couldn't be set ,and would of been off if I hadn't changed the needles
I just ordered two new needles. I sure hope that is it - I am running out of options.
Adam
So the other 2 needles were is good working order? If the cost was not huge, why not go ahead and replace all 4?
Do you have the carb hardware kit? If not, get one! That will at least get you new o-rings.
I replaced the o-rings. Is it supposed to be hard to put the needle seat back? I had to use a punch and tap it with a hammer. It came out very easily - maybe that was the problem?
I also replaced two of the needles, but am thinking that I need to replace the other two as well - since, even with the new o-rings, it is still leaking but only on one side. The two that I didn't replace don't have any 'springiness' in then when I push down on them. Might that be a problem?
I guess the carbs are coming out again - this will be number 4...
Any help?
Adam
Did you put a light coat of oil on the o-ring before trying to install?
The rubber is trying to grip the carb body and if you drove them in you might have torn them.
If the internal damping spring of the other two needles are not working then they could cause an overflow.
You also need to make sure you measure the float level at an angle and not with the float weight compressing the needles.
This kit makes things much easier; S/S Screw & O-Ring Carburetor Kit (http://www.rpmracingca.com/proddetail.asp?prod=carbkit)
Randy - RPM
Quote from: racerrad8 on August 25, 2013, 07:25:25 PM
Did you put a light coat of oil on the o-ring before trying to install?
The rubber is trying to grip the carb body and if you drove them in you might have torn them.
If the internal damping spring of the other two needles are not working then they could cause an overflow.
You also need to make sure you measure the float level at an angle and not with the float weight compressing the needles.
This kit makes things much easier; S/S Screw & O-Ring Carburetor Kit (http://www.rpmracingca.com/proddetail.asp?prod=carbkit)
Randy - RPM
Of course I didn't put oil on the o-rings. That would have made total sense and been too easy! :dash2:
I got the o-rings from you when I ordered two needles. I will order another two needles... crap.
If only I can go on one more ride before snow....
Hi Adam,
I had the exact same problem with my 89, I found one of the floats 'sticky' I had all the float bowls off the carbs, held the the carbs rightside up and pushed the floats up and let go. one of them wouldstick up,creating an overflow of fuel . I found the float pin was slightly bent causing the float to stick. I bent it straight and walla! Hope that helps. I also thought the fuel should leak out the smaller tubes but mine leaked out the large tube also. On the stock airbox issue did you know about the screws on the side and one on top of the airbox to frame ? If you loosen them the airbox pulls back a littleand makes pulling the carbs on this pretty easy. I prefer the stock box myself, unless Im building a faster bike!
Quote from: aslovik on August 21, 2013, 02:14:30 PM
Quote from: FJ_Hooligan on August 21, 2013, 12:46:35 PM
Looking at that picture, the spring needle tip (that the float persses on) is stuck in the compressed position. I remember reading somewhere (probably in the Carb Files) that if the spring tip is stuck, the needle will not seat well and will leak.
Also, what year is your FJ? 9Kmiles isn't that many, but think about the number of YEARS those o-rings have been sitting there (assuming they are stock).
I just noticed that myself. I will try and loosen it or order a new one. Riding season is slipping away...
The FJ is a '93. I know, not a lot of miles. I used to ride it to work and back - but lived and worked in San Francisco, so it was only 3 miles each way. Now I am in Utah and want to do a lot more leisure riding....
Adam
Quote from: Mattman on August 26, 2013, 11:05:39 AM
Hi Adam,
I had the exact same problem with my 89, I found one of the floats 'sticky' I had all the float bowls off the carbs, held the the carbs rightside up and pushed the floats up and let go. one of them wouldstick up,creating an overflow of fuel . I found the float pin was slightly bent causing the float to stick. I bent it straight and walla! Hope that helps. I also thought the fuel should leak out the smaller tubes but mine leaked out the large tube also. On the stock airbox issue did you know about the screws on the side and one on top of the airbox to frame ? If you loosen them the airbox pulls back a littleand makes pulling the carbs on this pretty easy. I prefer the stock box myself, unless Im building a faster bike!Quote from: aslovik on August 21, 2013, 02:14:30 PM
Quote from: FJ_Hooligan on August 21, 2013, 12:46:35 PM
Looking at that picture, the spring needle tip (that the float persses on) is stuck in the compressed position. I remember reading somewhere (probably in the Carb Files) that if the spring tip is stuck, the needle will not seat well and will leak.
Also, what year is your FJ? 9Kmiles isn't that many, but think about the number of YEARS those o-rings have been sitting there (assuming they are stock).
I just noticed that myself. I will try and loosen it or order a new one. Riding season is slipping away...
The FJ is a '93. I know, not a lot of miles. I used to ride it to work and back - but lived and worked in San Francisco, so it was only 3 miles each way. Now I am in Utah and want to do a lot more leisure riding....
Adam
Thanks - yes I do know about the the screws to move the airbox back. Makes it a bit easier. Still a pain.
You see, first I thought the carbs were dirty and a float was sticking - so I took it apart, cleaned it all and put it all back. Still leaked.
Then, I noticed two of the needles had their springs depressed so replaced them - still leaked.
Then, I replaced the o-rings, and didn't oil them so might have damaged them - because it still spews gas!
So, plan is to re-replace the o-rings, two new needles for the ones that appear fine but what the heck. And pray a lot.
Thanks for all the help and suggestions
Adam
A few more tips from the Carb Files:
Sometimes after a rebuild, one or more floats can stick in the down position and allow overflow. Cycle the power and tap on the float bowl to break the float loose. (I've actually seen this happen once).
Pay attention to how the overflow/vent lines are routed. If they are kinked, fuel will spew out of the jet and needle passages. If you're continuing to leak from the overflow, then this is probably not the problem.
"Gusher" leak indicates stuck float or crud in needle seat. "Seeping" leak is o-ring.
Good point from Hooligan, Ive seen people cut the four float bowl vent lines short then put the carbs on and kink one or more of the hoses and that will not let air in the bowl causing overflow out the larger tubes.
Quote from: Mattman on August 26, 2013, 11:05:39 AM
Hi Adam,
I had the exact same problem with my 89, I found one of the floats 'sticky' I had all the float bowls off the carbs, held the the carbs rightside up and pushed the floats up and let go. one of them wouldstick up,creating an overflow of fuel . I found the float pin was slightly bent causing the float to stick. I bent it straight and walla! Hope that helps. I also thought the fuel should leak out the smaller tubes but mine leaked out the large tube also. On the stock airbox issue did you know about the screws on the side and one on top of the airbox to frame ? If you loosen them the airbox pulls back a littleand makes pulling the carbs on this pretty easy. I prefer the stock box myself, unless Im building a faster bike!Quote from: aslovik on August 21, 2013, 02:14:30 PM
Quote from: FJ_Hooligan on August 21, 2013, 12:46:35 PM
Looking at that picture, the spring needle tip (that the float persses on) is stuck in the compressed position. I remember reading somewhere (probably in the Carb Files) that if the spring tip is stuck, the needle will not seat well and will leak.
Also, what year is your FJ? 9Kmiles isn't that many, but think about the number of YEARS those o-rings have been sitting there (assuming they are stock).
I just noticed that myself. I will try and loosen it or order a new one. Riding season is slipping away...
The FJ is a '93. I know, not a lot of miles. I used to ride it to work and back - but lived and worked in San Francisco, so it was only 3 miles each way. Now I am in Utah and want to do a lot more leisure riding....
Adam
Quote from: racerrad8 on August 25, 2013, 07:25:25 PM
Did you put a light coat of oil on the o-ring before trying to install?
The rubber is trying to grip the carb body and if you drove them in you might have torn them.
If the internal damping spring of the other two needles are not working then they could cause an overflow.
You also need to make sure you measure the float level at an angle and not with the float weight compressing the needles.
This kit makes things much easier; S/S Screw & O-Ring Carburetor Kit (http://www.rpmracingca.com/proddetail.asp?prod=carbkit)
Randy - RPM
Randy - How likely is it, do you think, that I tore them when putting in the needle seats not having oiled them? The thing is, when I first ordered two needles from you, I also got (thank you, thank you) 4 complimentary o-rings. I ordered another two needles just to be safe but this time - no o-rings. My question is this: should I pull the needle seats out and replace the o-rings?
Adam
You could pull them and inspect them for damage. Use a magnifying glass and bend them around so any cuts or damage will be visible. If you cut them bad enough to leak then you can find the damage.
Quote from: FJ_Hooligan on August 26, 2013, 04:04:55 PM
A few more tips from the Carb Files:
Sometimes after a rebuild, one or more floats can stick in the down position and allow overflow. Cycle the power and tap on the float bowl to break the float loose. (I've actually seen this happen once).
"Gusher" leak indicates stuck float or crud in needle seat. "Seeping" leak is o-ring.
I had the "gusher leak" after rebuilding the carbs in a hotel room in Payson, Arizona. One of the floats was stuck...verified that by riding off a curb. The "bump" unstuck the float and I was on my way! It sure beat pulling the carbs again!
Cap'n Ron. . .
There appears to be some really good information in the carb files.
andyb and others have made a considerable contribution. Very good reading!
Quote from: aslovik on August 28, 2013, 04:12:26 PM
Randy - How likely is it, do you think, that I tore them when putting in the needle seats not having oiled them? The thing is, when I first ordered two needles from you, I also got (thank you, thank you) 4 complimentary o-rings. I ordered another two needles just to be safe but this time - no o-rings. My question is this: should I pull the needle seats out and replace the o-rings?
Adam
Sorry, I missed this yesterday. It would be wise to pull them and inspect to see if they have any damage or tears, that is what I would do. I though I would be kind and include as you put it a set of "complimentary" needle seat o-rings on the first order.
You then said;
Quote from: aslovik on August 26, 2013, 12:30:45 PM
Then, I replaced the o-rings, and didn't oil them so might have damaged them - because it still spews gas!
So, plan is to re-replace the o-rings, two new needles for the ones that appear fine but what the heck. And pray a lot.
Thanks for all the help and suggestions
Adam
So, then I recommended the S/S carb & o-ring kit as it would supply you with all of the o-rings for the carbs as well as the replacement screws in S/S allen head bolts.
But the order came in for just two more needles...
Randy - RPM
Quote from: racerrad8 on August 29, 2013, 12:43:11 PM
Quote from: aslovik on August 28, 2013, 04:12:26 PM
Randy - How likely is it, do you think, that I tore them when putting in the needle seats not having oiled them? The thing is, when I first ordered two needles from you, I also got (thank you, thank you) 4 complimentary o-rings. I ordered another two needles just to be safe but this time - no o-rings. My question is this: should I pull the needle seats out and replace the o-rings?
Adam
Sorry, I missed this yesterday. It would be wise to pull them and inspect to see if they have any damage or tears, that is what I would do. I though I would be kind and include as you put it a set of "complimentary" needle seat o-rings on the first order.
You then said;
Quote from: aslovik on August 26, 2013, 12:30:45 PM
Then, I replaced the o-rings, and didn't oil them so might have damaged them - because it still spews gas!
So, plan is to re-replace the o-rings, two new needles for the ones that appear fine but what the heck. And pray a lot.
Thanks for all the help and suggestions
Adam
So, then I recommended the S/S carb & o-ring kit as it would supply you with all of the o-rings for the carbs as well as the replacement screws in S/S allen head bolts.
But the order came in for just two more needles...
Randy - RPM
You've been *more* than helpful and generous. Didn't mean to imply anything else. It is just that if I didn't tear the o-rings putting them in, I didn't want to now tear them taking them out...
Thanks again
Adam
IT RUNS! Free at last, free at last; thank god I'm free at last!
Thank you all for all your help, advice, and patience.
(Now I just have to figure out why the rear brake doesn't work at all - maybe need to bleed the brakes?)
Yipeeee!!!! :dance2:
:good2:
Quote from: aslovik on August 29, 2013, 08:07:17 PM
IT RUNS! Free at last, free at last; thank god I'm free at last!
Thank you all for all your help, advice, and patience.
(Now I just have to figure out why the rear brake doesn't work at all - maybe need to bleed the brakes?)
Yipeeee!!!! :dance2:
:good2:
The rear brake is way over rated.... 20% of braking at best... Are you racing???
Quote from: aslovik on August 29, 2013, 08:05:14 PM
You've been *more* than helpful and generous. Didn't mean to imply anything else. It is just that if I didn't tear the o-rings putting them in, I didn't want to now tear them taking them out...
Thanks again
Adam
No implication taken by me, I am glad it all worked out.
Did you check them or take the chance?
Randy - RPM
Quote from: FJmonkey on August 29, 2013, 08:12:31 PM
The rear brake is way over rated.... 20% of braking at best...
how about just holding the bike at a stop... fix the brake.
Frank
Yeah, A little rear brake will stop Wheelspin out of the corners. . .Cheers Fourex.