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General Category => General Discussion => What did you do to your FJ today? => Topic started by: Sabre093 on August 18, 2013, 07:14:45 PM

Title: Well it's started.....17" conversion
Post by: Sabre093 on August 18, 2013, 07:14:45 PM
I'd like to thank all those who helped me so far,and it went good till brakes need to be bleeded....I need a vacuum assisted pump and yes I tried every trick I know...lol..and some of yours too,I swapped everything FJ and now am running a 2003 R6 Master and Blue dots...it will all work...lol I hope..
(http://i1252.photobucket.com/albums/hh578/Sabre093/1176309_10151815315571119_1595194542_n.jpg) (http://s1252.photobucket.com/user/Sabre093/media/1176309_10151815315571119_1595194542_n.jpg.html)
(http://i1252.photobucket.com/albums/hh578/Sabre093/1170782_10151815315716119_1318346240_n.jpg) (http://s1252.photobucket.com/user/Sabre093/media/1170782_10151815315716119_1318346240_n.jpg.html)
(http://i1252.photobucket.com/albums/hh578/Sabre093/1146498_10151815315871119_1731399176_n.jpg) (http://s1252.photobucket.com/user/Sabre093/media/1146498_10151815315871119_1731399176_n.jpg.html)
(http://i1252.photobucket.com/albums/hh578/Sabre093/1185957_10151815316156119_1550520248_n.jpg) (http://s1252.photobucket.com/user/Sabre093/media/1185957_10151815316156119_1550520248_n.jpg.html)
Title: Re: Well it's started.....17" conversion
Post by: FJscott on August 18, 2013, 07:22:00 PM
Nice job, you will be happy with the results
Title: Re: Well it's started.....17" conversion
Post by: rktmanfj on August 18, 2013, 07:22:31 PM
Nice work!

Now stop holding out... show us what's under the cover.

I think I already know.

Title: Re: Well it's started.....17" conversion
Post by: Sabre093 on August 18, 2013, 07:39:20 PM
Tubbed 67 Camaro running a Big Block 454...not mine...My Buddy who helped me...it's his baby
Title: Re: Well it's started.....17" conversion
Post by: rktmanfj on August 18, 2013, 08:06:10 PM
Quote from: Sabre093 on August 18, 2013, 07:39:20 PM
Tubbed 67 Camaro running a Big Block 454...not mine...My Buddy who helped me...it's his baby

I had it pegged for a 1st gen, but that's even better!   :good:

Title: Re: Well it's started.....17" conversion
Post by: fj11.5 on August 18, 2013, 08:42:51 PM
I'm guessing your r6 mc is radial like mine, if so did you bleed it  at the mc nipple, or at the mc banjo either way
Title: Re: Well it's started.....17" conversion
Post by: Sabre093 on August 19, 2013, 07:02:08 PM
My bike is Red and I'm about to make it redder....danm i'm having hell of a time bleeding this system....
Title: Re: Well it's started.....17" conversion
Post by: Pat Conlon on August 19, 2013, 07:37:18 PM
MityVac, every workshop needs one....
Title: Re: Well it's started.....17" conversion
Post by: Sabre093 on August 19, 2013, 07:59:07 PM
I'm going to get one tomorrow....
Title: Re: Well it's started.....17" conversion
Post by: rktmanfj on August 19, 2013, 08:21:52 PM
Quote from: Sabre093 on August 19, 2013, 07:59:07 PM
I'm going to get one tomorrow....

Wal-Mart has 'em.

They're still open...     :biggrin:

Title: Re: Well it's started.....17" conversion
Post by: Sabre093 on August 19, 2013, 08:38:18 PM
Not in Canada
Title: Re: Well it's started.....17" conversion
Post by: Dan Filetti on August 19, 2013, 09:21:39 PM
Try the zip-tie-the-lever-to the-grip-overnight trick -some have reported it works...  Can't hurt.

Dan
Title: Re: Well it's started.....17" conversion
Post by: FJmonkey on August 19, 2013, 09:22:43 PM
Quote from: Dan Filetti on August 19, 2013, 09:21:39 PM
Try the zip-tie-the-lever-to the-grip-overnight trick -some have reported it works...  Can't hurt.

Dan
+1 Dan
Title: Re: Well it's started.....17" conversion
Post by: Sabre093 on August 19, 2013, 09:25:26 PM
Wasted 3 hours so far on the way that works most all the time....going to get the vacuum bleeder...Damm it was going so well too...lol
Title: Re: Well it's started.....17" conversion
Post by: fj1289 on August 19, 2013, 09:35:27 PM
You'll want to put a small wrap of Teflon tape around the bleeder threads - other wise you will suck in air through the threads and won't be nearly as effective.

BE CAREFUL none of the Teflon tape is below the first thread so none can tear lose and get into the brake system!  I've never had an issue, but suppose it could happen...
Title: Re: Well it's started.....17" conversion
Post by: ribbert on August 19, 2013, 11:43:48 PM
Quote from: Dan Filetti on August 19, 2013, 09:21:39 PM
Try the zip-tie-the-lever-to the-grip-overnight trick -some have reported it works...  Can't hurt.

Dan

I asked a while back if someone could explain to me how this works. There were no replies.

Noel
Title: Re: Well it's started.....17" conversion
Post by: fj11.5 on August 20, 2013, 12:24:08 AM
My reasoning was that, air bubbles would perhaps rise up to the mc, and when the lever was realeased quickly they would be sucked back into the resivoir  :scratch_one-s_head:, but who the hell knows for sure  :biggrin:
Title: Re: Well it's started.....17" conversion
Post by: soundmindryan on August 20, 2013, 07:25:52 AM
Quote from: fj11.5 on August 20, 2013, 12:24:08 AM
My reasoning was that, air bubbles would perhaps rise up to the mc, and when the lever was realeased quickly they would be sucked back into the resivoir  :scratch_one-s_head:, but who the hell knows for sure  :biggrin:
+1.  Worked for me.  It's magic. May take more than one time, but after cutting the zip tie off, the results are astounding. I do also believe it vents the line to the reservoir, allowing air bubbles to escape.
Title: Re: Well it's started.....17" conversion
Post by: ribbert on August 20, 2013, 09:26:37 AM
Quote from: soundmindryan on August 20, 2013, 07:25:52 AM
Quote from: fj11.5 on August 20, 2013, 12:24:08 AM
My reasoning was that, air bubbles would perhaps rise up to the mc, and when the lever was realeased quickly they would be sucked back into the resivoir  :scratch_one-s_head:, but who the hell knows for sure  :biggrin:
+1.  Worked for me.  It's magic. May take more than one time, but after cutting the zip tie off, the results are astounding. I do also believe it vents the line to the reservoir, allowing air bubbles to escape.

Have you considered you might get the same result just leaving it overnight anyway? The clutch line is all uphill. Rule one with brake fluid, if you drop the bottle on the ground, get another one off the shelf or leave it sit for 24 hours. It takes a long time to purge the bubbles.

With the lever pulled in the line is closed and under pressure. The pressure does not aid the air rising to the top, technically it has the opposite effect but in practice won't make much difference.

If spongy fluid is your only problem, as soon as I have enough clutch to get it into gear I ride it. It always comes good after a bit of use. It is a lot easier than driving yourself nuts trying to get the perfect feel in the garage.  I think engine vibrations speed up the process too.

Anyway, keen to hear if anyone else has a view.

Noel
Title: Re: Well it's started.....17" conversion
Post by: FJscott on August 20, 2013, 12:04:42 PM
heating the brake fluid helps release any gases and aids in the bleeding process. don't heat above maximum operating temperature.
Title: Re: Well it's started.....17" conversion
Post by: Pat Conlon on August 20, 2013, 12:45:03 PM
Scott, this is new to me....How do you heat the fluid?  In situ?  If so, where do you apply the heat without damaging your lines or caliper or m/c seals?
You can't preheat those plastic bottles very much...

This sounds like the making of a disaster to me.... A Mity Vac is so much easier..
Title: Re: Well it's started.....17" conversion
Post by: JCainFJ on August 20, 2013, 02:40:51 PM
Brake fluid absorbs quite a bit of air (or one of the gasses that make up air), and fastening the clutch lever to the bar (raising the pressure on the system) can cause some of the small air bubbles to dissolve into the fluid. I have removed this absorbed air by placing new brake fluid in a vacuum chamber and evacuating it several times. Using the degassed brake fluid provides a firmer feel at the lever and makes bleeding easier too. I do not know for sure, but I think brake fluid likes to absorbs Oxygen which makes up about 21% of air at sea level.
Title: Re: Well it's started.....17" conversion
Post by: fj11.5 on August 20, 2013, 05:27:23 PM
Not so  much that  the systems closed  , but that its under pressure ,and cutting the cable tie  sucks the bubbles that have floated up over night quickly back into the mc  :scratch_one-s_head:, :yahoo: that's my theory and I'm stuck with it  :biggrin:, and your  right about a shaken but not stired bottle of brake fluid, my son picked up the new un,opened bottle to pass it to me in the shed, but proceded to shake the shit out of it first , I thought nothing of it till I popped the lid, bubbles galore, decided to move onto something else tīll it was useable


Rod
Title: Re: Well it's started.....17" conversion
Post by: Sabre093 on August 20, 2013, 07:48:42 PM
I'm fed up...after 6.5 hours of B.S,we bench bled master 2 x....It's off to my bike guy...and we had a vacuum bleeder too and it  didn't work either.There's something else going on time for another set of eyes on it..
Title: Re: Well it's started.....17" conversion
Post by: fj11.5 on August 20, 2013, 08:40:22 PM
Maybe the mc return port is blocked
Title: Re: Well it's started.....17" conversion
Post by: markmartin on August 20, 2013, 09:20:50 PM
I'm not sure what you mean by 'bench bled' ? However...

I had a similar bleeding problem when I upgraded my calipers, master and lines last year.  This is what worked for me.  I made a tall loop (about 12" vertical  before it looped back down into a catch can) off each caliper nipple and let the nipples open.  It's not what I had planned, but it worked.
The rest of the story here:
http://www.fjowners.com/index.php?topic=6721.0 (http://www.fjowners.com/index.php?topic=6721.0)

Title: Re: Well it's started.....17" conversion
Post by: FJscott on August 20, 2013, 11:18:00 PM
Quote from: Pat Conlon on August 20, 2013, 12:45:03 PM
Scott, this is new to me....How do you heat the fluid?  In situ?  If so, where do you apply the heat without damaging your lines or caliper or m/c seals?
You can't preheat those plastic bottles very much...

This sounds like the making of a disaster to me.... A Mity Vac is so much easier..

Pat,

heat some water in a sauce pan and put a new bottle of brake fluid in the water to heat the oil.
Im an Engineer in the merchant marines and we have large Disc Brakes on our propulsion shafts that stop the shafts everytime we shift to neutral. our brake systems are much larger but anytime we change brake fluid or bleed the brakes we heat the oil first. this also helps flush the system when changing fluid.
works great for freeing up stuck pistons in the calipers. I realize our FJ brakes are so small and easy to just disassemble and put a rebuild kit but for someone who wants to do a quick fluid change, cleanout the system, get a good purge of air heating the new fluid up in a pan of water really works good.

felt I needed to clarify and explain what I said. after your questioning I was envisioning a member with a torch heating up his brake lines....YIKES :dash2:
Scott
Title: Re: Well it's started.....17" conversion
Post by: Pat Conlon on August 21, 2013, 12:44:01 AM
Ok, thanks Scott. I learned something today....Cheers
Title: Re: Well it's started.....17" conversion
Post by: ribbert on August 21, 2013, 02:07:58 AM
Quote from: Sabre093 on August 20, 2013, 07:48:42 PM
I'm fed up...after 6.5 hours of B.S,we bench bled master 2 x....It's off to my bike guy...and we had a vacuum bleeder too and it  didn't work either.There's something else going on time for another set of eyes on it..

The bleeding process would probably be made easier if you unbolted the slave from the motor and clamped the piston. This way you are not losing any of the lever movement to piston travel, it is all directed at shifting fluid.

Noel
Title: Re: Well it's started.....17" conversion
Post by: baldy3853 on August 21, 2013, 04:33:23 AM
Fantastic  :good2: :good2:
Title: Re: Well it's started.....17" conversion
Post by: ribbert on August 21, 2013, 05:58:05 AM
Finally found it. The addendum to the FJ workshop manual. "Clutch Bleeding Techniques and Procedures"- Abridged version.
(It was hidden behind "How to Tell Your Wife Why One Motorbike Isn't Enough")

(http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2817/9560018869_385b37a3e8_c.jpg)

Noel
Title: Re: Well it's started.....17" conversion
Post by: FJ_Hooligan on August 21, 2013, 12:25:53 PM
I realize you're frustrated, but I've found the best ingredient in bleeding any system is patience.  With a conventional pump-and-bleed process and even a Mighty-Vac, you're trying to force the air downhill to the cylinder.  You might need to do this if the system is totally empty, as when replacing calipers or lines to get some fluid down into the cylinder.  But, I've found it works much better to let the air rise back up to the master (as others have also pointed out).

The other trick you can try is Reverse Bleeding where you force fluid up from the caliper to the master cylinder.  Some Mighty-Vacs will allow you to do this, but most use a large syringe.

As an example, I replaced my clutch master cylinder over the weekend and never touched the slave cylinder bleeder.  I gently squeezed the lever, but never pulled it back to the bar, just enough engagement to cause the air to bubble back into the master .  In less than 10 minutes I was done.  I'm sure it would have taken more time if the slave had been empty, but the air will naturally want to rise in the system.
Title: Re: Well it's started.....17" conversion
Post by: Sabre093 on August 24, 2013, 12:08:24 PM
No pump would have worked...I ended up having a bad fitting,so I would never have figured it out...I'll have my pony back Monday..